Wow, I'm so sorry to hear about Tyson's awful experience. I'll have to agree that just because people work in the "dog" field, doesn't mean they know anything about dog behavior. Since I work in the "dog" field and deal with other dog-related professionals, sometimes I'm shocked how inexperienced some people are with dogs. Whether its reading their body language, caring for them, or just doing whats right for them.
There was a big story a while ago about a starving 3 year old GSD that was locked in a crate in the garage for who knows how long. Animal Control got an anonymous tip, so they went to check it out. The dog was in a crate in their garage with no food or water and looked like death. The dog weighed only half of what it should be and was in terrible shape. Come to find out later that the owner of this abused dog is a Vet Tech!
@shibamistress- I like the old school vets I have too, very up front and honest and yes more relaxed about the rulesThe old guy I go to rarely even has a vet tech in the room.Very at ease with the dogs and the dogs just seem to relax around him and let him do whatever to them, even Treasure who was the one I had to sedate to do his hips was relaxed around this guy.
@Asheaka-Like how my cousin took a veterinary program and she doesn't even LIKE animals! yes this is what I have been seeing while taking classes, there were so many people in there that just don't belong. I'm sure you are going to make a great vet with the perspective you have.
@dlroberts- I tend to stay away from the new school vets, not enough experience and yes to much by the book to get in tune with the patient and owners. Honestly I have several vets through several clinics I use. I will use the " by the book vets" for routine shots and physical exams if neccessary for instance when shipping. But for anything major I have two specific vets I use from differant clinics. If I can't get the appointment when I want at one I call the other.
I still can't beleive they contacted animal control...seriously. You do not enter into a field to work with dogs and not know the risks. For goodness sakes they even make you get rabies vaccinations. Dogs and cats have teeth you might get bit. Unless they thought the dog was rabid or was so people aggressive it tried to attack everyone in the office I simply don't understand why they would even involve AC. Is it mandatory in your state or is it just because your vet is so "by the book". I would not be using that vet anymore.
I give all my vaccinations myself and have been for many, many years. Are you in a state where you can give your own rabies or does it have to be given by a vet. In Michigan it has to be given by a licensed vet but since I have a kennel license it is not even required so I give them myself unless they are being shipped or we are going to Canada.
@WCP- when I personally, refer to "wildness" I am referring to the Kai's natural state way before they were used by the "Matagi" (sp?) in Japan to help them track and hunt. Yes, I am comparing them to the more domestic dogs like the average lap dog etc.
I personally can think of no other way to compare the Kai to potential new owners who have no experience in dogs in general or in the Kai breed. I feel strongly that it is my job to make sure that anyone getting a Kai understands completly that this breed takes excessive and continous socialization.
I don't want to scare anyone away from the Kai breed but I want to make sure they understand they can't leave this dog home all the time and not socilaize it in all aspects of domestic life and then expect it to act like a lap dog around strangers or strange situations. Some people may feel that my comparisions and explainations of the Kai's temperament may be to extreme but if it gets through to potentail new owners and keeps dogs from being dumped or returned because someone did not socialize well enough then I am going to continue to preach.
To me wild means like a rabbit or a deer, they would rather run from you and hide then be touched. Their natural instinct is to flee from what they perceive as danger. If you catch and try to hold either of these or any other feral animal, they will fight to free themselves. Even a sweet little rabbit will scratch and fight to get away.
No the Kai are not wild to this extent but not all of natures feral instincts have been breed out of the Kai at this point so yes, I think it would be easy for some of them to revert back to this natural feral state with some Kai being more "primitive" acting than others.
Mochi is an excellant example. Poor Mochi was so confused after she arrived that her natural "flight" instinct to survive kicked in and she fled from the situation and now she is so unsure of everything she is steering clear of all of it, just in case. Even if Brad goes back to Florida to try to get her again, she is in such a state of panic that she will probably not recognize him if he spots her and will run unlesss she is somehow trapped and then is forced to deal with taking the time to recognize him. It would only take her a second to recognize him once she stops panicking and allows her own common sense to kick in.
when Maddie escaped the yard in a snowstorm with Shima when they were younger, Shima came home but Maddie did not. Maddie was in the woods behind the house and totally lost. I took Chip out the next day and walked the woods and I could hear her but not see her. I believe she was following at a distance and hiding not sure who I was and did not recognize the dog.
After I gave up and left the woods andstarted heading back I spotted her on the edge of the woods watching, but very leary and on the edge of panicking. Everytime Chip went in her direction she ran like hell. So I clipped on his leash and started moving away from her and heading slowly toward the house while calling her. About half way there,( which was not that far, I only have ten acres and she was still on my property),all of a sudden total recognition kicked in and she came running up to me and Chip and said hello and raced to the house...
Maddie somehow became so confused in the snowstorm she completely panicked and all common sense left her. She could have easily walked out of the woods looked north and seen the house and followed the sound of the dogs home but she was in such a state of panic after Shima left her she could not find her way.
Marsha, that's a sad story (with a happy ending!) but does illustrate what I was thinking about. That tendency to revert to the feral if scared/etc. I see this happen in my female Shiba quite a lot. That's what I meant by wildness, too.
@kaikenone I get what you're saying and I've seen that in dogs before but not to that extent. So I understand the whole idea of Kai Ken being more feral than other breeds but at the same time I've seen almost all dogs show those sorts of feral traits to some degree. When they don't have the ability to cause serious damage or are such good escape artists as NK tend to be, I think people see their dogs as less feral, even if they communicate the exact same behaviours. I personally don't know of any typical lap dog breeds that, if you left them alone in the house or yard all day, they wouldn't form similar bad habits. The margin for error is probably a lot less with more feral breeds but it doesn't change the fact that there are truisms about dog keeping.
@WCP - I'm actually leaning towards your feeling that 'wild' isn't the right term to describe what went on with Tyson and why Mochi can't be retrieved.
It's my understanding that old style GSDs would do the exact same thing if their owners were not around during veterinary examinations. People used the term 'dominant' to describe this resistance, which is just as bad as an adjective as 'wild'. There's a Dog Whisperer episode where a Jindo mix tossed off a muzzle and would have bitten someone if he could reach. Maybe it's in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think being 'wild' was why the dog fought off CM.
If I were to compare against Jindos, there are cases where the dog does get lost and loose, but they either trek home or return to the parking spot. There are also those stray Jindos that just invite themselves into a stranger's yard.
Yeah, because saying its an issue of 'wildness' is almost to say that its a dog problem and not an issue that is reflected in all animals. What would it be then, about that particular species which makes it 'wild' when other animals aren't? There are soft and hard dogs just as there are soft and hard people. On some level we are all fundamentally animals, even if we (in the case of humans) are raised in a stable and non-violent culture or (in a dog's case) from a stable, well maintained line of a healthy breed.
Jindo's are a pretty interesting breed because they developed on the island pretty much by themselves. Its not like human culture was acting on them a whole lot, so I think that is reflected in their traits. I think a lot of people overlook the heritage and cultural history of various breeds, and don't pay enough attention to how they have grown/developed as breeds in relation to their human interactions. Kai Ken for example weren't developed as livestock dogs, neither were they really that specialized as far as I can tell. From all that I've read and heard, they developed as an all-purpose dog for people in the thick mountainous regions that bear the name. They weren't engineered for a specific purpose like many european breeds, or bred for service over "companionship".
Also if you're referring to that Jindo mix JonBee that was on CM... having been abandoned in a city dump for years upon years could have messed up his head more than any genetics would. It was crazy that he even survived in a barren dump like that, especially in the LA area where there are roving packs of street dogs.
Kai Ken have a strong self-preservation instinct, more so than some other breed. Self-preservation will usually manifest as "flight" but can include "fight". Dogs who have been selected to do blood-sport type work, like catching hog, cow, fox, racoons, etc or to fight other dogs, or to bay very large animals tend to have a lower self-preservation instinct and and more compulsiveness this is what makes the Kai, IMHO, unique among some other hunting breeds.
When you combine the Kai's self-preservation instinct with the Kai's natural softness toward humans, and their slight suspicion of strangers, you get a dog (breed) that can appear more "wild" when reacting to a traumatic situation involving humans. The dog may runaway more than normal, or bite more easily, etc...
If your Kai gets lost they resort to their instincts to survive, perhaps they do this quicker than some other breeds, who knows. When you corner a Kai, if they can't escape, they will tend to fight (bite), while some other breeds will shutdown (making them easier to handle than a Kai).
Some breeds are "handler hard" and therefore will take more abuse from a person before their preservation instincts kicks-in. The Kai is not like this, they are "handler soft" and therefore are very sensitive to physical pressure from a human (tho I have noticed a range in softness in the breed, some are very soft others less soft).
Some breeds are "canine soft" and will not take much abuse from a dog before they "tip" into a fight, the Kai is not like this. The Kai is "canine hard" and will take a lot of abuse from a dog before they "tip" into a fight (tho this is typically over-shadowed by a learned-response and obviously hardness-level ranges in the breed too).
It seems people are reacting to this thread as if it is some type of put-down of (for?) the Kai Ken, seems the reactions are a little defensive or something. Maybe it's being read as a form of "breed hype"... I dunno, my point is, I think Dave and others (including myself) were just trying to make the point that the Kai Ken is an easy breed in a lot of ways, but can also be a difficult breed in other ways.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that these qualities mentioned above are specific to the Kai Ken, certainly their are other dog breeds and mixes that may show similar behavioral oddities. I think one should consider the fact that this is a Nihon Ken forum and take the comments withing the context of the Nihon Ken breeds and not so much within the context of all of dogdom.
I can make a list of strange things I have expereince in the Kai Ken that I have not experienced in other breeds... I could do the same for the Caucasain Ovcharka... I dunno if those anecdotes really help tho, as they are very much circumstantial. Also, I don't think there is much value in comparing dog breeds, at one point in my dog-life I loved that type of stuff, but the more breeds I own the less value I think the comparisons give.
^ that makes a lot more sense, the whole self preservation vs compulsiveness and hardness.
I'd imagine the Kai Ken and Ovcharka experiences you have are pretty interesting and odd, because they are pretty unique breeds. I don't believe much in comparing breeds but I'd say they don't have many similarities to others.
I was just getting put off a little bit by some generalizations made but that's bound to happen anyways. In my experience individual dogs can be so different, even from the same litter, NK or not
@Brada1878 - Hi Brad! I know, it's been too long! I have so much catching up to do! It was a nice feeling to post again ;D
As far as the Animal Control - I'm pretty sure that when someone seeks medical attention for a dog bite - the doctor/hospital is required to report it to Animal Control and the dog is to be quarantined. At least that's how it works over here.
Although new here, I do work with dogs for a living - grooming, to be exact. I did do a newbie forum-mite "no-no" and skimmed LOL but I'm mostly responding to the original topic. I just saw a lot of bias comments about people who work with dogs for a living, and while I do know there are morons out there (there are groomers in my salon that I wouldn't let touch my dogs simply due to over handling and then taking to long while at it) I do think there are some overlooked misunderstandings.
Coming from where I work, we usually take the "he's probably going to bite and generally be awful" comment as "when we try to do stuff like this at home he's a butthead to us" - generally on average these dogs are actually BETTER than the ones were owners say "she should be good and no problem at all !" (This is also often true for dogs named "Angel", "Baby", and "Princess" etc. too LOL). In fact, there are a few Shibas who visit our salon where the owners are all "omg he's going to be bad and scream for his nails I'm SO SORRY!" yet when they walk out to pay up front, these dogs behave perfectly for us because they know they can't get away with ill behavior LOL. We do still generally approach with caution with the "bad dogs" at first (like say if nail grinding, we start with the back feet because most dogs are calmer and seem to careless about them than their front, so if they're bad for back feet 95% they'll be obnoxious for their front and we can better prepare for it, though on a rare occasion this can be backwards LOL) and then go from there based on the dogs reaction.
Often times we can get the job done without muzzling for the bad dogs (someone either holds them or distracts them) but when we do muzzle its not because we don't want to get bitten (I'll let dogs bite me before I muzzle because usually it is a "test" bite, as in "maybe if I bite she'll leave me alone!" and there are a few who usually realize it doesn't work and give up LOL) it's because we don't want them to bite our tools: clippers, scissors, nail trimmers, and dremels. Most dogs aren't given enough credit and actually try and bite our tools - they know it's not us that's "harming" them, it's the strange vibrating thing in our hand! If we do get bit, it's usually in-between their aiming for our tool and us trying to get that tool out of the way at the same time.
We've heard horror stories of having to sew tongues and noses back on because they suddenly bit the scissors or clippers. So when muzzling is done, we usually explain to the owner (if they seem upset that it was done without permission) that it's not for our safety, it's for the dogs - we don't want him or her severely injuring themselves. So when I read that they had muzzled Tyson, I read it as they didn't want him to bite the needle and syringe. Getting bit is part of the job, most techs know this and truly shouldn't get upset. In fact, most would tell you that they'd rather get bit than explain to you that your dog can now wear a tongue, lip, or nose ring LOL.
As for the bitten vet tech, I don't find that uncommon that she had to seek medical attention. We had a husky that DID, and unwarned, purposely bite one of our groomers before we'd even got her started (bad temperament, I've never met such a reactive dog and after that she was turned away). She didn't break the skin, but she did bite down hard, SHOOK, and then would not release her hold. The girl had to go to the doctor because the dog managed to do damage to her muscles/tendons and was in a cast for a over a week (her hand swelled and couldn't move), and the husky (since it was a walk in) had to do a 14 day quarantine because the owner could not produce proof of rabies.
That being said my own Border Collie tries to bite me when I simply touch his legs/feet and I know he'll do it with other people, so in all honesty I wouldn't worry and stress about Tyson biting for stressful situations like this. Simon, my sheltie, the first time I dematted his tail he tried to bite me simply because of the discomfort LOL. Inara, only last week, finally tried to chew on me after having her nails grinded for every week since she was 2 weeks old and she's just three days from being 8 months old. Hell, if it's got a long body and short legs (corgi, basset, dachshund, etc.) it's almost a guarantee that it's going to try and bite when you immediately pick up it's foot for nail trimming. We're not sure why most breeds like that react like this, but I believe it's because they have less mobility than a proportionate dog (like say a Lab), so it puts more discomfort and stress on their joints and tendons when we have to hold their foot a certain way. Only a few ever seem to figure out that if they don't fight it gets done and over with a lot faster lol.
Anyway, I just wanted to add some insight on certain procedures that looked like hadn't been explained before There's just other reasons to muzzle a dog just than: "D: SHINY TEETH ARE SCARY".
Having worked at a vet clinic with an old school vet, 90% of the reason they muzzle is to prevent bites. The other 10% was "because it shows the dog you are dominant over them". Almost every dog that came in the back room got muzzled. Spitzes automatically got muzzled because the vet "didn't trust them". (Yeah, yeah, I know. I struggled with A LOT of the mentality there.)
Now, I am certainly not saying every clinic is like this, and I'm sure that not even every old school vet does this. But I think this is a great illustration of why you have to be totally comfortable with your vet and ask questions. It is much better to know what is going to happen when your dog leaves your sight, because you have no control over the situation at that point.
I don't think there's a problem with muzzling the dogs. Better safe than sorry. It's bad news for the dog who bites someone, too. No one wants their pet put down because they bit someone. My only problem is that vets always seem to have those flimsy cloth/velcro muzzles that don't work as well and aren't as comfortable for the dog.
@Asheaka- no, not sure could handle all that... just going for vet tech.
@Nekopan- I have not worked in a vets office but have several vets and have seen just the opposite as you.. I have never seen the old school vets muzzle anyone and the new vets seem like they can't even give a vaccination without a muzzle..
I agree the new nylon muzzles arn't that great and you can definitely still get bitten.
I am surprised that the vet tech felt that it was neccessary to seek medical attention or did I misunderstand? and the skin wasn't even broken...
When I was bitten I went to the hospital and they gave me a tetanus and then proceeded to scrub it out with one of this little brushes doctors scrub up with.. no numbing, no nothing.. no stitches, no bandaids.... needless to say the next time I got bit I did not bother going in so I could pay money for them to do what I could do myself.
I'm not sure we can really make any generalizations about how vets behave just because we all seem to have such different experiences with it. I go to a new "modern" vet who keeps up on the latest research and such, and they're pretty patient with dogs. Violet is a breeze at the vet, but part of that is due to the fact that the vet tries to always make it a positive experience for her. We always go into the rooms with the pups and we're totally allowed to hold her if we like and they always try to distract the pups with treats. They also (and I think this is a deliberate decision) tend to act very casually about things even if they're a big deal, because they don't want the pup to think it's a big deal and stress about it. I think that actually has had the biggest impact in terms of how Violet behaves at the vet. Once (and just once) we had a vet tech that was definitely scared of Violet. She held her very tightly for the examination and was acting generally in a very anxious way and it made Violet in turn, behave in a slightly restless and anxious manner. The vet actually told the vet tech to relax since she was stressing the pup out, and that there was no need to be holding her so tightly. This is also the same vet who encouraged us to do as much socialization as possible and continues to end each visit with a puppy cuddling. So in the end I think it's a lot less about old or new school and just more that if someone gets into because they love animals and pay attention to their emotional (as well as physical) state, then you'll likely be in good hands. That said, I realize how incredibly rare it can be to find a really great vet (I've been to my share of terrible ones) and I'm so grateful to my current vet.
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sorry to hear that Tyson had such a terrible time at the vet and I'm glad to hear that his bite inhibition is so good. I wish that more trainers, breeders, etc. made a big deal of it. Both our breeder and trainer did and my trainer's main point is that in the end, they are dogs. It is natural that dogs, if sufficiently pushed in a stressful situation, will bite and a dog that has been taught proper bite inhibition will not do a lot of damage whereas it is often the case that the dogs that are typically sweetest and never bite, are the ones that can do the greatest damage since they have not been taught proper bite inhibition by owners who are like "oh it's fine, they don't bite/aren't mouthy, so I'm not worried that they'll ever bite someone." NKs, who are both mouthy by nature and harbor a great dislike of restriction (and are arguably a bit more primitive) are more likely to end up in situations where they might bite, and so I wish more people emphasized working on bite inhibition (we actually let Violet mouth us even now, though just us - so that we can make sure that her mouth remains soft).
Sorry, I was not trying to generalize, I would never claim all vets are like that, nor are all "old school" vets of the same mentality. I was merely trying to emphasize the importance of knowing your vet, what goes on behind the scenes and being comfortable with them.
Oh, didn't think people were quite generalizing (just speaking anecdotally), but it seemed to be headed in that direction.
My guess is that some things also happen because of the amount of time available at some clinics. From the little I have heard about other vet clinics, some of them really need to "process" patients pretty quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if there are places that feel like they don't have the time to observe the dog, or take stress reduction measures. There's another clinic much closer to where I live that I had heard very mixed things about, and one of the observations made by people who both liked and didn't like them was that they tended to speed through things, in part because of the volume of the pets that they see. I ended up trying my vet out because someone at my office had taken their rescued, badly abused, skittish dog there (it was a direct rescue) and said that they handled their dog really well, and took the time to sooth the dog first and make it comfortable so that it could be examined without freaking out and that in subsequent visits the dog didn't seem stressed by the fact that it had a vet visit. It seemed as good of a recommendation as I could get.
I totally agree with your points about vets though. It's pretty important and I consider my vet an invaluable resource because I completely trust them. I'm curious to see how other people find their vets though. I think that is the most difficult part is initially finding someone that will be good with your dogs. It made me feel much better to see my vet make a request regarding the vet tech's approach because she felt it was causing undue stress.
Tyson's quarantine ended on Monday, so we went in for his exam and vaccines in the afternoon. Both Candice (who he is head over heals in love with) and me went along, armed with pockets full of treats. My singular mission for the exam was to make it as positive an experience as possible. He was great in the waiting room, although typically for him a bit edgy. They brought us into a room almost immediately, where we did some basic obedience with him. I had him climb onto the exam table himself and both Candice and I loved all over him. When the Dr. came in to examine him, I asked her to start at his rear and work towards his head. He danced around a lot, but didn't fight my gentle restraint too much. If something made him uncomfortable, he would pull out of my restraint once, I would speak to him in a calm voice, reposition him, and he would oblige by burying his head under my arm. Throughout the entire exam his tail was mostly up and wagging gently, probably because Candice was right in front of his face petting and treating him. His tail dropped when the tech pinched his leg for a blood draw and when I pulled his lips back for a tooth exam. Otherwise, he was the perfect gentlemen!
With the exception of a yeast infection in both ears, he got a clean bill of health. I'm guessing the infection is the result of all the swimming I do with him and the fact that I've never cleaned his ears after swimming. :-( He's got 2 weeks of ear drops twice a day which should clear it up. He's not a fan, but will tolerate the ear drops if I restrain him between my legs. Poor fella, it's been a rough few weeks for him.
Most importantly, there doesn't seem to be any lasting effect from the "bite" incident. I've learned my lesson though. From now on I will be the one to restrain him during all exams.
Great news!!!! I think that's great behavior for a Kai.
Little side note....I find that when I breath in a very relaxed way it helps Koda to calm down when he gets in the anxious/nervous mode.....especially when he's at the vet.
Glad Tyson is doing well and that he had no lasting associations with the vet.
Sorry about the ears, though... I could only imagine what would happen if I had to put drops in one of my girls' ears. lol. Glad Tyson tolerates it pretty well.
@kaikenone I just regulate my breathing and keep it slow, calm, and steady. I don't exaggerate it and make it louder for Koda to hear. I think that would have the opposite effect. I started doing this at the vet when he was still going through his puppy shots and it seemed to really work. It was the wait mostly in the room that had lots of different animal smells that made him nervous. I would just stay as calm as can be, almost in a meditation mode and it worked. It may be in my head, but he seems to really respond to the energy I give off.
@tjbart17- ok tha tis what I thought you meant.... I doubt it is in your head.. dogs pick up on peoples vibes and if you are making a conscious effort to be calm he is probably picking that up... i guess I need to re train myself.. : )
@kaikenone ("I don't want to scare anyone away from the Kai breed") @Brad - ("Jen and I were chatting about this, and I think I probably overlook some of the traits that one might consider less-than-ideal in the Kai Ken. Certainly they have some qualities that make them very hard to deal with at times. I really love the breed and so I am always speaking positively about them, but it's true, they have a "wildness" to them that can be very hard to deal with if you are an inexperienced dog handler.")
This is just the sort of info that should be discussed early on with any potential puppy owner. I recommend that this info is included in the threads at the top of the home page where the 'tourists' will see it.
While it is just too sad to think that people who are professionally involved with animals are as dense as described on this thread (esp after being warned), it is imperative that a potential puppy owner is aware of these aspects of the breed. If they are still interested THEN the 'easier', more 'convenient' aspects of the breed can be shared.
I started a thread about the "primitive" nature of the kai and no one responded. Now I am now getting the info I was seeking
Comments
There was a big story a while ago about a starving 3 year old GSD that was locked in a crate in the garage for who knows how long. Animal Control got an anonymous tip, so they went to check it out. The dog was in a crate in their garage with no food or water and looked like death. The dog weighed only half of what it should be and was in terrible shape. Come to find out later that the owner of this abused dog is a Vet Tech!
@Asheaka-Like how my cousin took a veterinary program and she doesn't even LIKE animals! yes this is what I have been seeing while taking classes, there were so many people in there that just don't belong. I'm sure you are going to make a great vet with the perspective you have.
@dlroberts- I tend to stay away from the new school vets, not enough experience and yes to much by the book to get in tune with the patient and owners. Honestly I have several vets through several clinics I use. I will use the " by the book vets" for routine shots and physical exams if neccessary for instance when shipping. But for anything major I have two specific vets I use from differant clinics. If I can't get the appointment when I want at one I call the other.
I still can't beleive they contacted animal control...seriously. You do not enter into a field to work with dogs and not know the risks. For goodness sakes they even make you get rabies vaccinations. Dogs and cats have teeth you might get bit. Unless they thought the dog was rabid or was so people aggressive it tried to attack everyone in the office I simply don't understand why they would even involve AC. Is it mandatory in your state or is it just because your vet is so "by the book". I would not be using that vet anymore.
I give all my vaccinations myself and have been for many, many years. Are you in a state where you can give your own rabies or does it have to be given by a vet. In Michigan it has to be given by a licensed vet but since I have a kennel license it is not even required so I give them myself unless they are being shipped or we are going to Canada.
I personally can think of no other way to compare the Kai to potential new owners who have no experience in dogs in general or in the Kai breed. I feel strongly that it is my job to make sure that anyone getting a Kai understands completly that this breed takes excessive and continous socialization.
I don't want to scare anyone away from the Kai breed but I want to make sure they understand they can't leave this dog home all the time and not socilaize it in all aspects of domestic life and then expect it to act like a lap dog around strangers or strange situations. Some people may feel that my comparisions and explainations of the Kai's temperament may be to extreme but if it gets through to potentail new owners and keeps dogs from being dumped or returned because someone did not socialize well enough then I am going to continue to preach.
To me wild means like a rabbit or a deer, they would rather run from you and hide then be touched. Their natural instinct is to flee from what they perceive as danger. If you catch and try to hold either of these or any other feral animal, they will fight to free themselves. Even a sweet little rabbit will scratch and fight to get away.
No the Kai are not wild to this extent but not all of natures feral instincts have been breed out of the Kai at this point so yes, I think it would be easy for some of them to revert back to this natural feral state with some Kai being more "primitive" acting than others.
Mochi is an excellant example. Poor Mochi was so confused after she arrived that her natural "flight" instinct to survive kicked in and she fled from the situation and now she is so unsure of everything she is steering clear of all of it, just in case. Even if Brad goes back to Florida to try to get her again, she is in such a state of panic that she will probably not recognize him if he spots her and will run unlesss she is somehow trapped and then is forced to deal with taking the time to recognize him. It would only take her a second to recognize him once she stops panicking and allows her own common sense to kick in.
when Maddie escaped the yard in a snowstorm with Shima when they were younger, Shima came home but Maddie did not. Maddie was in the woods behind the house and totally lost.
I took Chip out the next day and walked the woods and I could hear her but not see her. I believe she was following at a distance and hiding not sure who I was and did not recognize the dog.
After I gave up and left the woods andstarted heading back I spotted her on the edge of the woods watching, but very leary and on the edge of panicking. Everytime Chip went in her direction she ran like hell. So I clipped on his leash and started moving away from her and heading slowly toward the house while calling her. About half way there,( which was not that far, I only have ten acres and she was still on my property),all of a sudden total recognition kicked in and she came running up to me and Chip and said hello and raced to the house...
Maddie somehow became so confused in the snowstorm she completely panicked and all common sense left her. She could have easily walked out of the woods looked north and seen the house and followed the sound of the dogs home but she was in such a state of panic after Shima left her she could not find her way.
It's my understanding that old style GSDs would do the exact same thing if their owners were not around during veterinary examinations. People used the term 'dominant' to describe this resistance, which is just as bad as an adjective as 'wild'. There's a Dog Whisperer episode where a Jindo mix tossed off a muzzle and would have bitten someone if he could reach. Maybe it's in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think being 'wild' was why the dog fought off CM.
If I were to compare against Jindos, there are cases where the dog does get lost and loose, but they either trek home or return to the parking spot. There are also those stray Jindos that just invite themselves into a stranger's yard.
Jindo's are a pretty interesting breed because they developed on the island pretty much by themselves. Its not like human culture was acting on them a whole lot, so I think that is reflected in their traits. I think a lot of people overlook the heritage and cultural history of various breeds, and don't pay enough attention to how they have grown/developed as breeds in relation to their human interactions. Kai Ken for example weren't developed as livestock dogs, neither were they really that specialized as far as I can tell. From all that I've read and heard, they developed as an all-purpose dog for people in the thick mountainous regions that bear the name. They weren't engineered for a specific purpose like many european breeds, or bred for service over "companionship".
Also if you're referring to that Jindo mix JonBee that was on CM... having been abandoned in a city dump for years upon years could have messed up his head more than any genetics would. It was crazy that he even survived in a barren dump like that, especially in the LA area where there are roving packs of street dogs.
Kai Ken have a strong self-preservation instinct, more so than some other breed. Self-preservation will usually manifest as "flight" but can include "fight". Dogs who have been selected to do blood-sport type work, like catching hog, cow, fox, racoons, etc or to fight other dogs, or to bay very large animals tend to have a lower self-preservation instinct and and more compulsiveness this is what makes the Kai, IMHO, unique among some other hunting breeds.
When you combine the Kai's self-preservation instinct with the Kai's natural softness toward humans, and their slight suspicion of strangers, you get a dog (breed) that can appear more "wild" when reacting to a traumatic situation involving humans. The dog may runaway more than normal, or bite more easily, etc...
If your Kai gets lost they resort to their instincts to survive, perhaps they do this quicker than some other breeds, who knows. When you corner a Kai, if they can't escape, they will tend to fight (bite), while some other breeds will shutdown (making them easier to handle than a Kai).
Some breeds are "handler hard" and therefore will take more abuse from a person before their preservation instincts kicks-in. The Kai is not like this, they are "handler soft" and therefore are very sensitive to physical pressure from a human (tho I have noticed a range in softness in the breed, some are very soft others less soft).
Some breeds are "canine soft" and will not take much abuse from a dog before they "tip" into a fight, the Kai is not like this. The Kai is "canine hard" and will take a lot of abuse from a dog before they "tip" into a fight (tho this is typically over-shadowed by a learned-response and obviously hardness-level ranges in the breed too).
It seems people are reacting to this thread as if it is some type of put-down of (for?) the Kai Ken, seems the reactions are a little defensive or something. Maybe it's being read as a form of "breed hype"... I dunno, my point is, I think Dave and others (including myself) were just trying to make the point that the Kai Ken is an easy breed in a lot of ways, but can also be a difficult breed in other ways.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that these qualities mentioned above are specific to the Kai Ken, certainly their are other dog breeds and mixes that may show similar behavioral oddities. I think one should consider the fact that this is a Nihon Ken forum and take the comments withing the context of the Nihon Ken breeds and not so much within the context of all of dogdom.
I can make a list of strange things I have expereince in the Kai Ken that I have not experienced in other breeds... I could do the same for the Caucasain Ovcharka... I dunno if those anecdotes really help tho, as they are very much circumstantial. Also, I don't think there is much value in comparing dog breeds, at one point in my dog-life I loved that type of stuff, but the more breeds I own the less value I think the comparisons give.
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I'd imagine the Kai Ken and Ovcharka experiences you have are pretty interesting and odd, because they are pretty unique breeds. I don't believe much in comparing breeds but I'd say they don't have many similarities to others.
I was just getting put off a little bit by some generalizations made but that's bound to happen anyways. In my experience individual dogs can be so different, even from the same litter, NK or not
As far as the Animal Control - I'm pretty sure that when someone seeks medical attention for a dog bite - the doctor/hospital is required to report it to Animal Control and the dog is to be quarantined. At least that's how it works over here.
Coming from where I work, we usually take the "he's probably going to bite and generally be awful" comment as "when we try to do stuff like this at home he's a butthead to us" - generally on average these dogs are actually BETTER than the ones were owners say "she should be good and no problem at all
Often times we can get the job done without muzzling for the bad dogs (someone either holds them or distracts them) but when we do muzzle its not because we don't want to get bitten (I'll let dogs bite me before I muzzle because usually it is a "test" bite, as in "maybe if I bite she'll leave me alone!" and there are a few who usually realize it doesn't work and give up LOL) it's because we don't want them to bite our tools: clippers, scissors, nail trimmers, and dremels. Most dogs aren't given enough credit and actually try and bite our tools - they know it's not us that's "harming" them, it's the strange vibrating thing in our hand! If we do get bit, it's usually in-between their aiming for our tool and us trying to get that tool out of the way at the same time.
We've heard horror stories of having to sew tongues and noses back on because they suddenly bit the scissors or clippers. So when muzzling is done, we usually explain to the owner (if they seem upset that it was done without permission) that it's not for our safety, it's for the dogs - we don't want him or her severely injuring themselves. So when I read that they had muzzled Tyson, I read it as they didn't want him to bite the needle and syringe. Getting bit is part of the job, most techs know this and truly shouldn't get upset. In fact, most would tell you that they'd rather get bit than explain to you that your dog can now wear a tongue, lip, or nose ring LOL.
As for the bitten vet tech, I don't find that uncommon that she had to seek medical attention. We had a husky that DID, and unwarned, purposely bite one of our groomers before we'd even got her started (bad temperament, I've never met such a reactive dog and after that she was turned away). She didn't break the skin, but she did bite down hard, SHOOK, and then would not release her hold. The girl had to go to the doctor because the dog managed to do damage to her muscles/tendons and was in a cast for a over a week (her hand swelled and couldn't move), and the husky (since it was a walk in) had to do a 14 day quarantine because the owner could not produce proof of rabies.
That being said my own Border Collie tries to bite me when I simply touch his legs/feet and I know he'll do it with other people, so in all honesty I wouldn't worry and stress about Tyson biting for stressful situations like this. Simon, my sheltie, the first time I dematted his tail he tried to bite me simply because of the discomfort LOL. Inara, only last week, finally tried to chew on me after having her nails grinded for every week since she was 2 weeks old and she's just three days from being 8 months old. Hell, if it's got a long body and short legs (corgi, basset, dachshund, etc.) it's almost a guarantee that it's going to try and bite when you immediately pick up it's foot for nail trimming. We're not sure why most breeds like that react like this, but I believe it's because they have less mobility than a proportionate dog (like say a Lab), so it puts more discomfort and stress on their joints and tendons when we have to hold their foot a certain way. Only a few ever seem to figure out that if they don't fight it gets done and over with a lot faster lol.
Anyway, I just wanted to add some insight on certain procedures that looked like hadn't been explained before
There's just other reasons to muzzle a dog just than: "D: SHINY TEETH ARE SCARY".
Now, I am certainly not saying every clinic is like this, and I'm sure that not even every old school vet does this. But I think this is a great illustration of why you have to be totally comfortable with your vet and ask questions. It is much better to know what is going to happen when your dog leaves your sight, because you have no control over the situation at that point.
It really sucks that this happened to Ty.
@Nekopan- I have not worked in a vets office but have several vets and have seen just the opposite as you.. I have never seen the old school vets muzzle anyone and the new vets seem like they can't even give a vaccination without a muzzle..
I agree the new nylon muzzles arn't that great and you can definitely still get bitten.
I am surprised that the vet tech felt that it was neccessary to seek medical attention or did I misunderstand? and the skin wasn't even broken...
When I was bitten I went to the hospital and they gave me a tetanus and then proceeded to scrub it out with one of this little brushes doctors scrub up with.. no numbing, no nothing.. no stitches, no bandaids.... needless to say the next time I got bit I did not bother going in so I could pay money for them to do what I could do myself.
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sorry to hear that Tyson had such a terrible time at the vet and I'm glad to hear that his bite inhibition is so good. I wish that more trainers, breeders, etc. made a big deal of it. Both our breeder and trainer did and my trainer's main point is that in the end, they are dogs. It is natural that dogs, if sufficiently pushed in a stressful situation, will bite and a dog that has been taught proper bite inhibition will not do a lot of damage whereas it is often the case that the dogs that are typically sweetest and never bite, are the ones that can do the greatest damage since they have not been taught proper bite inhibition by owners who are like "oh it's fine, they don't bite/aren't mouthy, so I'm not worried that they'll ever bite someone." NKs, who are both mouthy by nature and harbor a great dislike of restriction (and are arguably a bit more primitive) are more likely to end up in situations where they might bite, and so I wish more people emphasized working on bite inhibition (we actually let Violet mouth us even now, though just us - so that we can make sure that her mouth remains soft).
My guess is that some things also happen because of the amount of time available at some clinics. From the little I have heard about other vet clinics, some of them really need to "process" patients pretty quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if there are places that feel like they don't have the time to observe the dog, or take stress reduction measures. There's another clinic much closer to where I live that I had heard very mixed things about, and one of the observations made by people who both liked and didn't like them was that they tended to speed through things, in part because of the volume of the pets that they see. I ended up trying my vet out because someone at my office had taken their rescued, badly abused, skittish dog there (it was a direct rescue) and said that they handled their dog really well, and took the time to sooth the dog first and make it comfortable so that it could be examined without freaking out and that in subsequent visits the dog didn't seem stressed by the fact that it had a vet visit. It seemed as good of a recommendation as I could get.
I totally agree with your points about vets though. It's pretty important and I consider my vet an invaluable resource because I completely trust them. I'm curious to see how other people find their vets though. I think that is the most difficult part is initially finding someone that will be good with your dogs. It made me feel much better to see my vet make a request regarding the vet tech's approach because she felt it was causing undue stress.
Tyson's quarantine ended on Monday, so we went in for his exam and vaccines in the afternoon. Both Candice (who he is head over heals in love with) and me went along, armed with pockets full of treats. My singular mission for the exam was to make it as positive an experience as possible. He was great in the waiting room, although typically for him a bit edgy. They brought us into a room almost immediately, where we did some basic obedience with him. I had him climb onto the exam table himself and both Candice and I loved all over him. When the Dr. came in to examine him, I asked her to start at his rear and work towards his head. He danced around a lot, but didn't fight my gentle restraint too much. If something made him uncomfortable, he would pull out of my restraint once, I would speak to him in a calm voice, reposition him, and he would oblige by burying his head under my arm. Throughout the entire exam his tail was mostly up and wagging gently, probably because Candice was right in front of his face petting and treating him. His tail dropped when the tech pinched his leg for a blood draw and when I pulled his lips back for a tooth exam. Otherwise, he was the perfect gentlemen!
With the exception of a yeast infection in both ears, he got a clean bill of health. I'm guessing the infection is the result of all the swimming I do with him and the fact that I've never cleaned his ears after swimming. :-( He's got 2 weeks of ear drops twice a day which should clear it up. He's not a fan, but will tolerate the ear drops if I restrain him between my legs. Poor fella, it's been a rough few weeks for him.
Most importantly, there doesn't seem to be any lasting effect from the "bite" incident. I've learned my lesson though. From now on I will be the one to restrain him during all exams.
Little side note....I find that when I breath in a very relaxed way it helps Koda to calm down when he gets in the anxious/nervous mode.....especially when he's at the vet.
Poor Tyson about the ears.
glad he did good at the vet.
Sorry about the ears, though... I could only imagine what would happen if I had to put drops in one of my girls' ears. lol. Glad Tyson tolerates it pretty well.
do you just make a concious effort to breathe slowly or do you do it exaggerated so he can hear you breathing slowly.... hope that made sense..
@Brad - ("Jen and I were chatting about this, and I think I probably overlook some of the traits that one might consider less-than-ideal in the Kai Ken. Certainly they have some qualities that make them very hard to deal with at times. I really love the breed and so I am always speaking positively about them, but it's true, they have a "wildness" to them that can be very hard to deal with if you are an inexperienced dog handler.")
This is just the sort of info that should be discussed early on with any potential puppy owner. I recommend that this info is included in the threads at the top of the home page where the 'tourists' will see it.
While it is just too sad to think that people who are professionally involved with animals are as dense as described on this thread (esp after being warned), it is imperative that a potential puppy owner is aware of these aspects of the breed. If they are still interested THEN the 'easier', more 'convenient' aspects of the breed can be shared.
I started a thread about the "primitive" nature of the kai and no one responded. Now I am now getting the info I was seeking