Actually that info is up top. In the "what makes them not for everyone" thread, as well as multiple prior primitive threads. The problem isn't that the information isn't there, or that it isn't inaccessible. The problem is people pick breeds based on appearance and then have selective hearing when they are told about breed traits
@JessicaRabbit - I totally agree... I can't believe how may people wonder why their shiba won't cuddle when it's stated in the standard how stand-offish and not interested in cuddling they are.
@ Dave. With our swimming Shiba we dry the ears after a swim and use drying powder. We had the same problem and once the ears get sore a dog will fight like hell trying to avoid ear medication. So it's not unexpected that Tyson would put up a good struggle. Ear infections obviously hurt. Weekly we use Nolvasan otic flush and make sure the ear canal is dry after a trip out to the dock etc.
Blue's ears get dirty so fast. Parka's too. It's a lot of work keeping them clean in this dust/windy environment. I guess it's the floppy ears... The NK don't seem to get dirty ears as much, and the CO even less... So, I guess that shows another function of the CO's "Shepherd's Crop".
@jessicarabbit - You're correct. A search did turn up comments about "primitive", which I should have done before I started yet another redundant thread (sorry!).
Dave did an in depth description of the Shikoku in “what makes them not for everyone?” and TheWalrus wrote a good history of the kai ken. The breed comparison was also helpful, but between mostly BC & shikoku. So I do think a better picture of the responsibilities with owning a NK in general, with a comparison of the breeds would be helpful at the top of the forum for people who are considering one (or several) of these breeds.
Maybe I will take on this project once I am more familiar with the breed )
@Jan....hmmm....I think we've covered it in the "what makes them not for everyone" thread, and in the breed descriptions. And if anyone reads the forum regularly, I think they'll find it. Frankly, if people really want to get a good sense of the responsibilities and difficulties of owning an NK, they should go spend some time on the Shiba side, because it's laid out ad nauseum over there, simply because Shibas have become popular and we've got so many new and clueless members who got a Shiba because they think they're cute.
@jan3t I probably ignored your thread. Sorry, but the word primitive gets used to group Koda in with Huskies, Basenjis, wolves etc. that I find it a bit too generic for me.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them honestly. I love Koda and Mei and I find them easy to live with, but they do have their issues. Mei is a bit of a hunter/punk. She's too smart for her own good. Koda is sensitive and has some fear (although slight) it's there more than any dog I've owned and he needs me to be sensitive to his feelings. Mei has her own sensitivities. I have always said that Koda would not do well in a loud home. He would be so anxiety ridden. I feel like my home is a good place for him and that's why we do so well together. I could go on, but please feel free to ask any questions.
Where do you live? Are you near the Bay Area? That's where I'm at.
I'm just jumping in on this. Sorry about what happen to tyson. As a vet assistant and soon to be an RVT once I take the test, plus being an owner of a nervous dog, I see both sides. Sorry to say but in the vet world, time is money. I don't like it at all but I always get hammered by it. I believe taking time with the animal will bring more reward and an easier time when treating them. I try to spend sometime with each patient to make some connection and trust, but most the time I can't and I have to do what has to be done.
Last Saturday I was opening the hospital with a coworker. We were trying to help the dog out of it's kennel to take it for a walk. But the dog's condition had worsen and had became painful. While lifting it up, the dog bit me not once but 3 quick bites. Caught me off guard, but I could tell looking at the dog it was in pain. What happen to the vet tech that got bit by Tyson, I had bruising and swelling. I was fine and had no problem about because that's the only way they can tell us, that really hurt!
Anyways, we do have to get things done to help the animal and owner, sometimes do try to get it done, but there is a limit especially when the animal has a condition that stress will make it worse. In Tyson's case, I would say most vet hospital would have done the same thing on how they were trying to, sorry to say. I wonder though, dlroberts, did they have you sign a consent form? I know some places they have consent forms for these kind of things. In that way you already given them permission for the muzzle restraint. It so they can do what they need to get done.
I did sign a consent form but it didn't say anything about the muzzle. I understand that they are running a business, but it would seem smart to double check with the owner before proceeding. It certainly didn't take them long to contact me after the bite. :-/
yeah, I know.... It seems wrong, but the business does change. Hopefully it will change for the better for the owner, vet staff and most importantly, the animal.
I can't understand vet... They are specialised with animals but so much do that king of thing that is to push dogs too much... as if some vet don't understand a thing in comportement !!
Tyson is a good boy... so much presure and then...
Not sure if this is exactly similar or not, but I thought it would be better to put this into a pre-existing thread than to start a new one and get into trouble .
Meitou had a pretty bad vet visit this past Thursday. Prior to this he's been perfectly friendly and had no problems with anyone at the vet's office. He wasn't there a ton, especially for anything regarding him, but I have been taking him along when the elderly dog has to go (which has been somewhat often) in an effort to keep Meitou feeling positive about the vets and the vet techs that are there.
Anyway, he had to go in for an update on his bordetella (which he needs for the classes we are taking). A vet tech told me that since he didn't need an exam with this she could just take him back and quickly give him the oral bordetella vaccine and it shouldn't take too long. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have just let them take him back without me being there as he's recently been leery of strangers going for his head/handling him overmuch. Not long after she took him, the vet tech came back and asked me to come into a room because Meitou was being mean and had nipped at her when she tried to give him the vaccine. I'm not sure why, but for some reason I was thinking the bordetella stuff was going to be a pill that he'd eat hidden in food or something. Not sure why I thought that. It was a liquid in a syringe.
I went into one of the rooms with her and another vet tech was in there with Meitou (for ease of reference I will refer to them as the Mean Vet Tech --not that she was super mean, but she wasn't as understanding as the second one-- (#1) and the Nice Vet Tech (#2)). The Mean vet tech explained Meitou had gotten bitey when she tried to administer the vaccine and she left to go do something. Not sure what. I noticed there was a cloth muzzle on the table, but was distracted by the Nice Tech saying they thought he'd be better behaved with me in the room. At this point Meitou seemed to be fine with the vet techs and didn't seem super stressed. The Mean Tech came in and asked "Did you get the muzzle on him?" and the Nice Tech said "No...?" like she wasn't sure why they needed the muzzle. At this point I started to get concerned because Meitou has never been acclimated to a muzzle. I was going to say as much, but the Mean Vet Tech went to put the muzzle on and Meitou disagreed, growled and snapped a little which she reached for his head. She insisted that I put the muzzle on him. I probably shouldn't have done it, but I succumbed to the pressure. He was fine with me putting it on, but he kept trying to paw it off. And instead of letting him get more accustomed to it or to think of a better plan, the Mean Tech just went in and tried to administer the vaccine....and Meitou turned into a very angry Tasmanian Devil. He flipped out and for a moment the Mean Tech popped her head out of the room to ask the vet if they should try and injection method instead of oral. I could hear the vet say if the oral method was stressing out the dog, then yes, they should use the injection. It took pinning Meitou against the wall (Mean Tech) before the Nice Tech could administer the vaccine.
Mean Tech left pretty quickly saying she'd let me take the muzzle off and the Nice Tech left to get Comfortis I needed for both dogs and ring up the "sale." I got the muzzle off and Meitou calmed down considerably almost instantly. I laid down and sprawled out and outside of some heavy panting seemed much more normal. I could hear all the vet techs saying things like "I don't know what was wrong. Normally the dog in that room is really friendly."
I may have cried a bit, and the Nice Tech came back into the room at that point. She felt bad for me and got me some water and gave me a minute before going over the charges for the visit. When she came back in we talked a bit and I explained about Meitou never experiencing a muzzle and being a bit leery about strangers going for his head. The Nice Tech told me she thought he hadn't needed the muzzle and he would have been better without it with me in the room. She then took the effort to try and make friends with Meitou and gave him treats. He was a little hesitant but took the treats and after a few minutes seemed much happier.
I know I should have done a better job of standing up for Meitou and been more vocal about how I thought things should have been handled. It was a bit of a fail on my part. I'm not dreading the next time he has to go in for a vaccine. What is it okay for me to insist on when I take him to the vet the next time? Depending on what it is for, is it okay to ask if I can handle administering some vaccines (like the oral ones) with supervision since he'd probably be more willing for me to give him that sort of thing? I think I'll insist more of me being the one to hold him still also, as I think it makes him nervous for the vet techs to be the only ones doing it?
Just wondering what others would suggest to keep other vet visits from going to poorly?
I do not allow any "backroom" procedures for routine things like vaccines, or even blood draws, with Conker (or any of my dogs really). He's tried to take the vet's hand off before, and mangled a microchip scanner, so nothing is done unless I am in the room or *I* put a muzzle on him first. Conker is acclimated to wearing a basket muzzle (I won't use cloth muzzles on my dogs) and I bring it with me for every visit, just in case. With Conker, it's incredibly important that I put the muzzle on, not anyone else, or it stresses him out bad. He doesn't like strangers touching him in general, especially not his head, and my vet gets that. The vet doesn't look at his teeth, I do, the tech don't restrain him, I do. My vet is really good at reading dogs, so are the techs, and they do not force things upon the dogs, they take their time if they have to. Thankfully Conker has never had to have an actual backroom procedure done where I am unable to handle him.
Anywho, I wouldn't have allowed that with Conker, or any of my dogs. Rough handling is not tolerated, I would have walked out.
@Losech Yeah, I feel pretty stupid that I let it happen. I really should have known better, I feel so bad about it. I think I am definitely going to start taking more of your approach on it from here on out. I don't have a muzzle (the one the vet tech had was a cloth one, and yeah....I don't like that one) and haven't needed one before and I'm afraid I'd mess up using one. But maybe I should get a basket muzzle and start conditioning him to it? Never really wanted to buy a muzzle, but if it will be helpful in future cases like this, then maybe I should just suck it up and get one. The trainers I've been taking Meitou to classes with recently have a basket muzzle they like to use with reactive dogs when training, so maybe I could look into that one. And I'll be more firm about not having Meitou rough handled, and see what the vet will let me do in place of a vet or tech doing it.
@WhoBitMe It was super easy to condition Conker to the muzzle. I'd put it on for a second, give him a treat, then take it off. Rinse and repeat, slowly increase the time the muzzle is on, pair it with plenty of tasty treats, and he should be fine. I have one of these: http://www.jefferspet.com/plastic-dog-muzzles/camid/PET/cp/0027148/
My vets do everything with the owners in the room. The only thing that is not done right there are x-rays and of course surgery. My vets and even the techs are great at reading body language. If one of my dogs starts to stress while doing x-rays, they stop and come get me. They never force or rough handle any dogs no matter who they belong to. Of course it helps that I have been using this vet for 25 years and actually trained several of the techs and office staff.
The resurrection of this discussion made me think of a strange thing I heard a while back (which maybe should be its own thread, but I'm going to put it here for now I suppose). A friend of mine is getting a Welsh Springer Spaniel puppy this summer, and, long story short, one of the first of the breed she met is owned by a vet student in her area. She was interested in showing/trialing after talking to me about the things I had done with my Lapphund, so she brought me up and explained that I'd had a Lappy, and am very seriously considering a Kai when it becomes possible for me to have a dog again in two or three years.
The vet student told her to tell me not to do so. She texted me this, I asked why. She told her that she'd heard they're extremely aggressive and bred only for dog fighting. I'm like "Well they don't usually like being manhandled by strangers, but I don't think 'extremely aggressive' is fair and I've definitely never heard of them being bred 'only for dog fighting.'"
I'm still trying to figure out where exactly she got that from, but she also apparently believes that Purina Dog Chow is the best food on the market and that dogs have literally evolved to eat Dog Chow and do better on it than anything else now that most people in North America feed kibble, so I never put much stock in what she says on anything. She'd also apparently heard that Finnish Lapphunds were dog aggressive but wasn't sure what else to think of them, so I was starting to get the impression that she was just told anything that wasn't a Western-style sporting dog was dangerous...
The general flow of this thread from start to finish reminds me why I looked for a new vet this year before Nero came home. Our experience was actually with Mojo our Bengal Cat. The vet tried to man-handle him then acted surprised when Mojo spun around and bite him. Up until this point Mojo was pretty well behaved with previous vets and techs.
This vet then noted in our file that from now on Mojo would have to be gas'd to receive treatment. I was younger then and less tempered so proceeded to offer to gas him along with an expletive or two.
This was the last straw for us. We decided we no longer wanted to deal with big box vets (even some of the local ones.) Every visit there was a new vet to see who was completely unfamiliar with us and our pets. Thanks to a reference from another local Kai owner we found a vet that pretty much fit our bill. He took time to see how Nero reacted to things and never tried to take him out of the room. Additionally he did something I thought was pretty intuitive. He noticed we kept a bag of training treats with us and asked if he could offer him one of our treats.
It's a small thing but imho it was something Nero recognized and knew. Add that to this vet's low stress approach and we found a new place to take our animals.
The resurrection of this discussion made me think of a strange thing I heard a while back (which maybe should be its own thread, but I'm going to put it here for now I suppose). A friend of mine is getting a Welsh Springer Spaniel puppy this summer, and, long story short, one of the first of the breed she met is owned by a vet student in her area. She was interested in showing/trialing after talking to me about the things I had done with my Lapphund, so she brought me up and explained that I'd had a Lappy, and am very seriously considering a Kai when it becomes possible for me to have a dog again in two or three years.
The vet student told her to tell me not to do so. She texted me this, I asked why. She told her that she'd heard they're extremely aggressive and bred only for dog fighting. I'm like "Well they don't usually like being manhandled by strangers, but I don't think 'extremely aggressive' is fair and I've definitely never heard of them being bred 'only for dog fighting.'"
I'm still trying to figure out where exactly she got that from, but she also apparently believes that Purina Dog Chow is the best food on the market and that dogs have literally evolved to eat Dog Chow and do better on it than anything else now that most people in North America feed kibble, so I never put much stock in what she says on anything. She'd also apparently heard that Finnish Lapphunds were dog aggressive but wasn't sure what else to think of them, so I was starting to get the impression that she was just told anything that wasn't a Western-style sporting dog was dangerous...
That's crazy! Kai as fighting dogs? Ridiculous! But I guess, as you note, this person is not very well informed about dogs. Too bad that she's going to take that ignorance into vet school.
LOL... Kai as a fighting dog... Rika doesn't even pay attention to other dogs. She seems to think they're boring. She'd much rather climb hills, chase birds (or anything else that moves quickly, like leaves in the wind), inspect burrows, then climb some more hills. Every other dog we've ever passed, big or small, barking or leery, she's completely disregarded. She's not overly friendly, but she's let strangers pet her without getting stressed. I wish I had her balanced temperament. B-)
very seriously considering a Kai when it becomes possible for me to have a dog again in two or three years.
The vet student told her to tell me not to do so. She texted me this, I asked why. She told her that she'd heard they're extremely aggressive and bred only for dog fighting. I'm like "Well they don't usually like being manhandled by strangers, but I don't think 'extremely aggressive' is fair and I've definitely never heard of them being bred 'only for dog fighting.'"
It's kinda the opposite, really.
The Kai Ken (and maybe the Hokkaido Ken too?) is the only native Japanese dog that was not used for dog fighting at some point in history. All the other breeds (even the Shiba) have been fought at one time or another.
Also, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Just because a dog's breed was intended for fighting doesn't automatically make them aggressive toward people.
I've owned or worked with most of the "fighting breeds", and one thing that is 100% similar in every breed is their softness toward their owner. Human aggression in almost all of the fighting breeds is a big no-no and dogs that show handler aggression are typically PTS. This is because humans have to break up the dog fights, typically the owners/handlers, and do not want to end up being redirected on.
Good post Brad! I've never understood why people think a dog bred for fighting would attack people. Doesn't make sense.
LOL... Kai as a fighting dog... Rika doesn't even pay attention to other dogs. She seems to think they're boring. She'd much rather climb hills, chase birds (or anything else that moves quickly, like leaves in the wind), inspect burrows, then climb some more hills. Every other dog we've ever passed, big or small, barking or leery, she's completely disregarded. She's not overly friendly, but she's let strangers pet her without getting stressed. I wish I had her balanced temperament. B-)
Exactly! This is how Leo is. He's not that interested in other dogs, unless they are in his home pack!
Ah, I'm sorry about the experience, @WhoBitMe. I actually went through something very similar with Sagan a few months ago (posted on the Shiba side). I was extremely upset and embarrassed by his latest visit because now he basically has to be sedated + muzzled for all future vet appointments.
The Kai Ken (and maybe the Hokkaido Ken too?) is the only native Japanese dog that was not used for dog fighting at some point in history. All the other breeds (even the Shiba) have been fought at one time or another.
Also, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Just because a dog's breed was intended for fighting doesn't automatically make them aggressive toward people.
I've owned most of the "fighting breeds", and one thing that is 100% similar in every breed is their softness toward their owner. Human aggression in almost all of the fighting breeds is a big no-no and dogs that show handler aggression are typically PTS. This is because humans have to break up the dog fights, typically the owners/handlers, and do not want to end up being redirected on.
That's the impression I always had! On both counts... I'm not sure why the misconception that breeds that are used for fighting will be aggressive toward humans is so common, either. Because it really doesn't make sense...
Even the most unreliable of websites never claimed that Kai were ever fighting dogs, at least that I could find (I wanted to figure out where she got this information, and totally failed). So I really don't know where she got it from. I wondered if she had them confused with some other breed, but I really don't know. It makes no sense.
And really, as if spaniels have never been known to be dog aggressive and also show aggression toward humans, even if they're not supposed to... which spaniels (and a Pointer) are what she apparently has.
What really annoyed me is that this person is studying to be a vet and is going to keep telling people who don't know better and trust her entirely just because of her degree this stuff.
Maybe the stigma of dog-fighting breeds stem from the culture where people try to transform those fighting breeds into protection dogs.
I remember Christopher Landauer of Border Wars (admitedly an anti-pitbull advocate) put forward a theory that there is a fine line between breeding Border Collies for highly-complicated tasks such as sheep-trials and OCD and nose-sensitivity. He also noticed a lot of the highly biddable, soft British gun-dogs are noise-sensitive as well; whereas the harder and sharper German HPR breeds are not. Understandably, he also put forward the possibility all those redirected attacks we hear are basically dogs which crossed the threshold-- like BCs with OCD and gun-dogs with phonophobia.
Back in the old days, handlers in dog-shows used to stage mock-fights with to other terriers to test for "gaemeness". The more "game" the dog is, the better go-to-ground hunting dog it is. They were held up with front feet off the ground with a leash to avoid redirection.
Considering JRT and several other small terriers are one of the worst biters out there, it's no wonder why there is such a bad reputation for dog-fighting breeds.
I think the stigma probably come more from the rescue world where the average "bully" looking dog is labeled a "Pitbull" (a fighting breed) and then placed as one. Later, due to most rescues having HORRIBLE behavior testing and evaluation plans/people in place, that dog bites his new owner and it's another "Pitbull attack" (read as: "fighting breed attacking a human")... When infact that dog is not a "Pitbull" at all but a Mastiff or Bulldog mix.
Mastiffs and (working) Bulldogs should be human aggressive. That's the nature and history of those breeds. They shouldn't be handler aggressive, but they should be human aggressive.
Looping it back to the original thought/issue about a fighting breeds becoming aggressive toward the owner due to some type of mishandeling on the owners part. If that "fighting breed" was actually an odd mix of mastiff/bulldog and some other breed like a shepherd (a very handler hard breed known for handler aggression) or something, that's been labeled as a "pitbull"... Then, yea, the vet could have a point about not roughly handling the dog.
Now what if the experience that made her come to that conclusion was based around these rescue "pitbulls"... and so she made the leap from there to all fighting breeds... And then mislabeled the Kai due to it's Japanese nature where most of the native breeds were at one time fighting dogs.
I'm thinking this is more likely where this stigma comes from.
Comments
The problem is people pick breeds based on appearance and then have selective hearing when they are told about breed traits
Snf
Blue's ears get dirty so fast. Parka's too. It's a lot of work keeping them clean in this dust/windy environment. I guess it's the floppy ears... The NK don't seem to get dirty ears as much, and the CO even less... So, I guess that shows another function of the CO's "Shepherd's Crop".
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Dave did an in depth description of the Shikoku in “what makes them not for everyone?” and TheWalrus wrote a good history of the kai ken. The breed comparison was also helpful, but between mostly BC & shikoku. So I do think a better picture of the responsibilities with owning a NK in general, with a comparison of the breeds would be helpful at the top of the forum for people who are considering one (or several) of these breeds.
Maybe I will take on this project once I am more familiar with the breed
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them honestly. I love Koda and Mei and I find them easy to live with, but they do have their issues. Mei is a bit of a hunter/punk. She's too smart for her own good. Koda is sensitive and has some fear (although slight) it's there more than any dog I've owned and he needs me to be sensitive to his feelings. Mei has her own sensitivities. I have always said that Koda would not do well in a loud home. He would be so anxiety ridden. I feel like my home is a good place for him and that's why we do so well together. I could go on, but please feel free to ask any questions.
Where do you live? Are you near the Bay Area? That's where I'm at.
Last Saturday I was opening the hospital with a coworker. We were trying to help the dog out of it's kennel to take it for a walk. But the dog's condition had worsen and had became painful. While lifting it up, the dog bit me not once but 3 quick bites. Caught me off guard, but I could tell looking at the dog it was in pain. What happen to the vet tech that got bit by Tyson, I had bruising and swelling. I was fine and had no problem about because that's the only way they can tell us, that really hurt!
Anyways, we do have to get things done to help the animal and owner, sometimes do try to get it done, but there is a limit especially when the animal has a condition that stress will make it worse. In Tyson's case, I would say most vet hospital would have done the same thing on how they were trying to, sorry to say. I wonder though, dlroberts, did they have you sign a consent form? I know some places they have consent forms for these kind of things. In that way you already given them permission for the muzzle restraint. It so they can do what they need to get done.
Tyson is a good boy... so much presure and then...
Meitou had a pretty bad vet visit this past Thursday. Prior to this he's been perfectly friendly and had no problems with anyone at the vet's office. He wasn't there a ton, especially for anything regarding him, but I have been taking him along when the elderly dog has to go (which has been somewhat often) in an effort to keep Meitou feeling positive about the vets and the vet techs that are there.
Anyway, he had to go in for an update on his bordetella (which he needs for the classes we are taking). A vet tech told me that since he didn't need an exam with this she could just take him back and quickly give him the oral bordetella vaccine and it shouldn't take too long. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have just let them take him back without me being there as he's recently been leery of strangers going for his head/handling him overmuch. Not long after she took him, the vet tech came back and asked me to come into a room because Meitou was being mean and had nipped at her when she tried to give him the vaccine. I'm not sure why, but for some reason I was thinking the bordetella stuff was going to be a pill that he'd eat hidden in food or something. Not sure why I thought that. It was a liquid in a syringe.
I went into one of the rooms with her and another vet tech was in there with Meitou (for ease of reference I will refer to them as the Mean Vet Tech --not that she was super mean, but she wasn't as understanding as the second one-- (#1) and the Nice Vet Tech (#2)). The Mean vet tech explained Meitou had gotten bitey when she tried to administer the vaccine and she left to go do something. Not sure what. I noticed there was a cloth muzzle on the table, but was distracted by the Nice Tech saying they thought he'd be better behaved with me in the room. At this point Meitou seemed to be fine with the vet techs and didn't seem super stressed. The Mean Tech came in and asked "Did you get the muzzle on him?" and the Nice Tech said "No...?" like she wasn't sure why they needed the muzzle. At this point I started to get concerned because Meitou has never been acclimated to a muzzle. I was going to say as much, but the Mean Vet Tech went to put the muzzle on and Meitou disagreed, growled and snapped a little which she reached for his head. She insisted that I put the muzzle on him. I probably shouldn't have done it, but I succumbed to the pressure. He was fine with me putting it on, but he kept trying to paw it off. And instead of letting him get more accustomed to it or to think of a better plan, the Mean Tech just went in and tried to administer the vaccine....and Meitou turned into a very angry Tasmanian Devil. He flipped out and for a moment the Mean Tech popped her head out of the room to ask the vet if they should try and injection method instead of oral. I could hear the vet say if the oral method was stressing out the dog, then yes, they should use the injection. It took pinning Meitou against the wall (Mean Tech) before the Nice Tech could administer the vaccine.
Mean Tech left pretty quickly saying she'd let me take the muzzle off and the Nice Tech left to get Comfortis I needed for both dogs and ring up the "sale." I got the muzzle off and Meitou calmed down considerably almost instantly. I laid down and sprawled out and outside of some heavy panting seemed much more normal. I could hear all the vet techs saying things like "I don't know what was wrong. Normally the dog in that room is really friendly."
I may have cried a bit, and the Nice Tech came back into the room at that point. She felt bad for me and got me some water and gave me a minute before going over the charges for the visit. When she came back in we talked a bit and I explained about Meitou never experiencing a muzzle and being a bit leery about strangers going for his head. The Nice Tech told me she thought he hadn't needed the muzzle and he would have been better without it with me in the room. She then took the effort to try and make friends with Meitou and gave him treats. He was a little hesitant but took the treats and after a few minutes seemed much happier.
I know I should have done a better job of standing up for Meitou and been more vocal about how I thought things should have been handled. It was a bit of a fail on my part. I'm not dreading the next time he has to go in for a vaccine. What is it okay for me to insist on when I take him to the vet the next time? Depending on what it is for, is it okay to ask if I can handle administering some vaccines (like the oral ones) with supervision since he'd probably be more willing for me to give him that sort of thing? I think I'll insist more of me being the one to hold him still also, as I think it makes him nervous for the vet techs to be the only ones doing it?
Just wondering what others would suggest to keep other vet visits from going to poorly?
Anywho, I wouldn't have allowed that with Conker, or any of my dogs. Rough handling is not tolerated, I would have walked out.
I have one of these: http://www.jefferspet.com/plastic-dog-muzzles/camid/PET/cp/0027148/
The vet student told her to tell me not to do so. She texted me this, I asked why. She told her that she'd heard they're extremely aggressive and bred only for dog fighting. I'm like "Well they don't usually like being manhandled by strangers, but I don't think 'extremely aggressive' is fair and I've definitely never heard of them being bred 'only for dog fighting.'"
I'm still trying to figure out where exactly she got that from, but she also apparently believes that Purina Dog Chow is the best food on the market and that dogs have literally evolved to eat Dog Chow and do better on it than anything else now that most people in North America feed kibble, so I never put much stock in what she says on anything. She'd also apparently heard that Finnish Lapphunds were dog aggressive but wasn't sure what else to think of them, so I was starting to get the impression that she was just told anything that wasn't a Western-style sporting dog was dangerous...
This vet then noted in our file that from now on Mojo would have to be gas'd to receive treatment. I was younger then and less tempered so proceeded to offer to gas him along with an expletive or two.
This was the last straw for us. We decided we no longer wanted to deal with big box vets (even some of the local ones.) Every visit there was a new vet to see who was completely unfamiliar with us and our pets. Thanks to a reference from another local Kai owner we found a vet that pretty much fit our bill. He took time to see how Nero reacted to things and never tried to take him out of the room. Additionally he did something I thought was pretty intuitive. He noticed we kept a bag of training treats with us and asked if he could offer him one of our treats.
It's a small thing but imho it was something Nero recognized and knew. Add that to this vet's low stress approach and we found a new place to take our animals.
The Kai Ken (and maybe the Hokkaido Ken too?) is the only native Japanese dog that was not used for dog fighting at some point in history. All the other breeds (even the Shiba) have been fought at one time or another.
Also, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Just because a dog's breed was intended for fighting doesn't automatically make them aggressive toward people.
I've owned or worked with most of the "fighting breeds", and one thing that is 100% similar in every breed is their softness toward their owner. Human aggression in almost all of the fighting breeds is a big no-no and dogs that show handler aggression are typically PTS. This is because humans have to break up the dog fights, typically the owners/handlers, and do not want to end up being redirected on.
Even the most unreliable of websites never claimed that Kai were ever fighting dogs, at least that I could find (I wanted to figure out where she got this information, and totally failed). So I really don't know where she got it from. I wondered if she had them confused with some other breed, but I really don't know. It makes no sense.
And really, as if spaniels have never been known to be dog aggressive and also show aggression toward humans, even if they're not supposed to... which spaniels (and a Pointer) are what she apparently has.
What really annoyed me is that this person is studying to be a vet and is going to keep telling people who don't know better and trust her entirely just because of her degree this stuff.
So baffling.
I remember Christopher Landauer of Border Wars (admitedly an anti-pitbull advocate) put forward a theory that there is a fine line between breeding Border Collies for highly-complicated tasks such as sheep-trials and OCD and nose-sensitivity. He also noticed a lot of the highly biddable, soft British gun-dogs are noise-sensitive as well; whereas the harder and sharper German HPR breeds are not. Understandably, he also put forward the possibility all those redirected attacks we hear are basically dogs which crossed the threshold-- like BCs with OCD and gun-dogs with phonophobia.
Back in the old days, handlers in dog-shows used to stage mock-fights with to other terriers to test for "gaemeness". The more "game" the dog is, the better go-to-ground hunting dog it is. They were held up with front feet off the ground with a leash to avoid redirection.
Considering JRT and several other small terriers are one of the worst biters out there, it's no wonder why there is such a bad reputation for dog-fighting breeds.
Mastiffs and (working) Bulldogs should be human aggressive. That's the nature and history of those breeds. They shouldn't be handler aggressive, but they should be human aggressive.
Looping it back to the original thought/issue about a fighting breeds becoming aggressive toward the owner due to some type of mishandeling on the owners part. If that "fighting breed" was actually an odd mix of mastiff/bulldog and some other breed like a shepherd (a very handler hard breed known for handler aggression) or something, that's been labeled as a "pitbull"... Then, yea, the vet could have a point about not roughly handling the dog.
Now what if the experience that made her come to that conclusion was based around these rescue "pitbulls"... and so she made the leap from there to all fighting breeds... And then mislabeled the Kai due to it's Japanese nature where most of the native breeds were at one time fighting dogs.
I'm thinking this is more likely where this stigma comes from.