Translation Please: Nice Shiba Diagram

lindsayt

@TheWalrus or anybody who is fluent.

I found a nice visual and was curious about the translation. Thanks!

PoetikDragon

Why did they use a white-faced shiba for it though? Weird.

lindsayt

It looks like one of the flashy marked Shibas that do better in the ring.

lindsayt

The ones with really flashy bleach white urajiro almost always do better (as long as they are built well) next to any other equally well built color.

Don't red Akitas typically do better in the rings next to the other colors?

PoetikDragon

They do? In Japan? Sorry, I just keep going back to the Japanese judge that said if your dog has a white face like an Akita to "just go home." So I was surprised to see this in a Japanese publication. (Conversely, the AKIHO publications about Japanese Akitas seem to be delusional, because they draw JAs with full red muzzles like a Shiba and I've only ever seen one dog like that.)

I want to know what the section with the target is about. The other stuff looks pretty explanatory.

lindsayt

It seems to be a rudimentary eye diagram?

Don't get me wrong, you SHOULD go home if your Shiba is completely white faced. I didnt mean to make it sound as if a white faced Shiba (all white) would beat out another color with less white. This one still has some color on the bridge, and while not great, there are far more faded and sometimes yellow dogs currently showing in the US. This one could easily get a US championship.

lindsayt

Gosh, I have never seen a red JA with a full red bridge like a Shiba. Were they at one point?

PoetikDragon

I don't think they ever were, but it is the goal that AKIHO is trying to move the breed towards. AKIHO publications all show diagrams of red muzzles, and the Japanese judge I mentioned was actually referring to the Akita and Hokkaido too, not just the Shiba. In the show ring, they're awarding dogs with a little color on the muzzle over ones that may be better in other aspects. And today I see dogs with some red a lot more often than looking at photos from even 10 years ago.

Here is an example of such a diagram from the last AKIHO magazine. The bottom two images show the correct red/white markings.


Here is the only dog I've ever seen with the full red muzzle. He's in Europe.

lindsayt

Wow! That's a rare beast right there.

Shibas need to be careful with too much fading. More Irish spotting is cropping up also and there are plenty these days looking more and more like the upper three drawings in terms of color pattern. It seems that both breeds ideally have extensive red with not so much white. The bottom drawing with the smallest amount of urajiro shows perfect Shiba markings as well.

PoetikDragon

Personally, I don't like the red muzzles on Akitas. If that's the way the entire breed moves, I'll stop breeding reds and might just stop entirely. I think its beautiful on a Shiba or Hokkaido but just not something I like.

curlytails

The target thing is a detail of how the eye/iris should be colored.
I'll leave the translation to the experts. But this is neat!

MapleTwinkie

I agree. I like Shibas with red muzzles, and JA's without.
On brindle JA's, I'd actually like to see more white on the muzzles too, but that's just my personal taste.

cezieg

You know, I never realized that the red JA's faces were absolute white. The one @poeticdragon linked a picture of is striking, I really like his face even if it's not to standard. Although if I had to state a preference it would be for white faces since it's one of JA's standard distinctions. I'm also not a fan of the top row of markings from the AKIHO diagrams, uniformity in coat markings is one of the things that attracted me to NK in the first place.

@lindsayt Thanks for posting these, those really neat diagrams to look at. I've never shown or read too much into showing and standards, so this is the first time I've seen any sort of "standards" diagrams. By "irish spotting" do you mean the faint red spots on the back of their legs? I've always been under the impression that those spots come from improper breeding or puppy mills. Tsune had those and while they were cute I wouldn't want that to be a widespread characteristic that is accepting in showing and standards.

lindsayt

A little bit, but more so the big distinct white blotches on the neck, the "necklace", and distinct white leggings instead of gradual blending. It's not desirable/a mismark in Shibas.

I like the geisha face on red Akita

lizzysilvertongue

I like the red face akita...

jellyfish

no. no red face akitas. that looks terrible. I hate it.


(though, the red face akita depicted has a good head, but i hate the red muzzle)

jellyfish

@mapletwinky I agree with you on your opinion that you'd like to see more white faces on brindles. I think that is a lot harder to control because from my knowledge, one really cannot control the brindling like how you can control the urajiro. The multiple genes for that is not on locus as the urajiro, and it overlays over the white. Hypothetically, if you breed a sparse brindle, you'd get similar brindling. From Toki's litter, that is not the case. Toki's face and brindling are much more dark and spaced together on his face than his daddy who has a white muzzle and good brindling on his face. However, Toki's sister, Zuma, has looks like her dad in the face. This new litter from Toki's dad has born what seems like is a black brindle. (of course, time will tell if that is true, but that dog is dark!)

So, yea, white muzzles on brindles are def. striking and I hope to get a brindle pup with a white face one day. (not that i don't love toki's, i just like both!

lindsayt

My understanding is with Shibas, is the flashier and more widespread the white markings you get (except with spots), the poor quality and yellower/more faded, the color quality will be overall. So, if you breed for a lot of fading, you are selecting for poor intensity of color:



Shibas on the left, JA on the right. The intensity of the color is very noticeable. The JA with that very dark face may be useful to the breed to help keep the color good.

ayk

I've noticed that in my friend's malamutes, a dog with domino ("grey") will have less color than a dog without domino ("agouti"). The color they could of have is still noticeable on the back, but it's not as intense further down towards their legs. Domino is the recessive gene that removes color on the snout and causes bigger white eyespots (uni-brow in JA). As newborn pups, their noses take longer to fill in with color, too.

That being said, there are some JAs that are very red and rival Shibas. Kita is one of them. So there can be some selection towards vibrant reds despite having that white face. Mostly by being cognizant that there is also a gene/modifier that lightens red coat pigment in the JA. It causes the clean silver brindle color and it's not going to go away in the breed.

TheWalrus

At the NIPPO national at the moment, just bumping the thread so I don't forget to translate it (or someone else that has time can?!).

PoetikDragon

I've seen a number of very dark, vibrant red Japanese Akitas with white faces and dark forearms. The father of my current litter is one of them.

@jellyfart I disagree, I think that dog's head is bad, even ignoring the color of his muzzle. I didn't want to say it before because it wasn't relevant to the discussion of red/white face.

@cezieg Irish spotting is a gene which causes white "flashing" at the extremities -- paws, legs, tip of the tail, face blazes, chest stars, white collars/necklaces, splotches on the back of the neck, etc. It is prevalent in both Akitas in Shibas. (In the American Akita it has been taken to the extreme and causes the piebald/pinto markings.) Irish spotting is most visible when the dog is a baby, giving it a hard edge to the white markings before urajiro comes in when its older. You can see it easily on my puppies for example:



By the time she is an adult, Elvira's urajiro will come in and overlap her Irish Spotting, hiding it completely. The only bit that will still be visible will be her white diamond on her neck:



@jellyfart @MapleTwinkie The white on a brindle Japanese Akita's face is not caused by urajiro (which the brindle overlays) but by irish spotting (which is "on top" of the brindle). You can get more white by picking dogs with more flashing to breed, but this makes badly marked reds and leads to dogs with full white collars. So its something to be careful about...

I'm reposting the visual explanation I did using Ghidora a while back:

*JackBurton*

Akiho isn't really moving towards having red on the bridge of the nose. If anything breeders have moved away from doing that.

"The cheeks should be white (hohjiro) and the red color from the head to the nose and a little below the eye should blend in with the white cheeks." Hiroshi Kuwabara wrote this in 1990. White faced red is not the goal here neither is a full red snout. More and more red akitas are having more white showing up on them. It is getting to the point where red's are starting to constantly have white marks on the back of the neck.

It is better to have a red with white cheeks and attempt to get red on the nose than a full white face. Even worse is when people over here call it a "white mask". <---- YUCK!

*JackBurton*

While we are at it. Why is irish spotting being tossed around so much?

I really don't get the genetics part that much at all but I've seen a couple of websites that imply urajiro is separate than Irish spotting. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/albino.html this is a quick example.

Britt's webpage puts the two together. "Urajiro (si = ”Irish spotting”). Selective breeding/inbreeding in Japan on this particular colour pattern has entrenched it. There isn’t any variety of the Urajiro on the red colours today, with exception of a white bliss, spot on the neck, half/full collar. This is accepted if it isn’t excessive. The brindles do not necessarily need to have a complete Urajiro but it has to “suit” the dog, as the Japanese express it. However, the more Urajiro the better."

If the two is interrelated then Urajiro would be involved with the brindles wouldn't it?

Calia

Not to get too off topic, but every time I here the term "Irish spotting" I picture the coat patterns common in the show line of Siberian Huskies. I think they call it Irish patterning, but it basically references the white muzzle and masking. "Dirty faced" huskies, ones with significant color on the muzzle, is very hard to come by in the show ring, but can be found in racing lines. Some people are trying to get the "dirty faced" huskies in the show ring, but it's still pretty rare to see. LoL, still find it funny that it's being mentioned here

*JackBurton*

To me it's like putting ketchup instead of marinara sauce on Spagetti. Sure they are both from tomatos but if Nana sees you using ketchup she's going to beat your ass.

PoetikDragon

Urajiro AND Irish spotting are involved with both red and brindle Japanese Akitas. On Ghidora, above, you can see both.

Someday I am going to have my art that shows how the color layers work...

Nekopan

Irish spotting and urajiro are definitely separate things. Irish spotting is what causes the collar markings, face blazes, socks and white tail tip. It also seems to be a more sharply defined white, rather than urajiro which blends into the coat.

jellyfish

I do remember this, urajiro being separate from Irish spotting. @poeticdragon is a good teacher, haha

tjbart17

@jackburton I'm the only one who got that. Lol