"I'm still reading up on it - which is taking a long time because Kevin Behan is a very smart guy and clearly smokes a lot of weed." >>>> That made me LOL. He does come off that way a bit.
I have been chatting with Kevin off-line, about various random topics. He has some rather astute observation to share and an interesting view on behavior. I appreciate his views since he comes from a Police dog training background. I have met a lot of GREAT trainers of all areas, but it seems there are clicker/positive trainers & schutzhund trainers and rarely do they over lap - that is where KB comes in, he, IMHO, connects the dot between the 2 without using any of that dominance/alpha crap. I'm pretty impressed with him at this point.
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I think it has to be said, and it hasn't yet, so I will be the one to do it...
The issue I have with Cesar's methods are that most of them are based on the old-school dominance/alpha rigid pack-order concepts that have been dead since the 80s. Most of the new studies coming out (for years now) about dogs & wolves (captive or wild) point out huge gaping holes in the old dominance/alpha theories. The theory is basically disproved at this point.
So, why would put any stake in a person that teaches his training based on obsolete scientific study done 10s of years ago? Seems silly.
It's like going through your life clinging to the obsolete theory that the earth is flat. Stupid, right?
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Then there is this...
Maui, he is a fearful, weak-nerved, puppy mill Shiba. I followed that alpha/dominance crap w/ him - loved Cesar - and, honestly, we got pretty quick results from those techniques - they seemed to work. Then a year or so passed, and we started to see that what we had actually done was cause Maui to be more fearful than he was when we started using those methods (they ruined any confidence the poor little guy had to begin with). We met with a behaviorist, and we realized we had ruined Maui with those methods - we still hate ourselves for that.
Since then, we have been using clicker training, and even Maui has come a long way - but he is still a very messed up dog, and he is our (everyday) reminder of why you shouldn't fallow that alpha/dominance crap.
Also, if you can get the same results from being positive, and giving your dog treats (instead of "corrections"), why would you choice the negative confrontational route or the fun positive one?
Have you also checked out Neil Sattin and Lee Charles Kelley? They are also supposed to ascribe to Natural Dog training theory (but without the difficult prose). What is your opinion of them?
Yes, I have. I follow LCK's blog - I think he does a nice job of writing KB's stuff in a more user-friendly way. I cannot say I agree with all his posts tho, but I have always communicated with him off-line and he is a very nice and approachable guy.
I have not paid much attention to Neil Sattin, not for any specific reason other than I just am running out of time to read and follow everything I would like to.
Thanks Ann!
Interesting and I will be looking more closely at some of the elements.
I just skimmed over both their blogs. Much better writing for sure so I see where they are coming from a bit better.
Brad: Good point about the inaccuracy and outdatedness of the CM model.
With what I just skimmed via Stattin & also Kelley's blogs...There are some things I basically agree with (loose leash walking, play etc) but other things (tug) I would weigh it on context and the given dog's mouthiness. Again it's about context.
As far as formal obedience training....I would not rush that at all. However, I would say puppy socialization and play during puppyhood is really important though and puppy-k can really pull pups through if it is a good class. Overall there has to be a balance in what one decides to implement with a young dog. Owners often expect too much too soon and people in competitive dog sports sometimes push things way too soon as well.
Again it is good to look at one set of foundations like positive/clicker and then move over to look at others. I really don't believe other trainers from the clicker/positive reinforcement camp would necessarily dispute many of these points. In fact, Pat Miller actually has a book out on dog play so I really think many are thinking on a parallel track, whether they know it or not.
BTW, there are some dogs that absolutely hate or are fearful of the clicker and have sound aversion, so play/prey theory etc comes in to help. Dogs that have been traumatized that don't play, that has to be initiated so it is relearned.
I've been following NS's blog and I have considered picking up his training DVD. LCK I haven't read as much of. The design on his site hurts my eyes.
I'm following the mainstream stuff with Tomoe right now because that's what we've got at the local school, and I wanted to get her used to classroom environment for the exposure to other puppies. I also don't claim to be a better trainer than people who train dogs for a living, no matter what their modality. The Natural Dog Training stuff seems like it can be worked into a classical / operant routine anyway.
There's really no "good" nor "bad" training *persay* via realistic training methods. Each dog is an individual and responds accordingly. It's whichever method works on that particular dog (works on the dog and not just for the human...no "quick fixes here" but hopefully long term ones ). Whichever method the dog responses best to. If you start something, try to finish it. Keep a good eye on the dog and make sure he or she UNDERSTANDS! That's the most important thing, otherwise reguardless of the method you use...the both of you are not going to progress any further.
If your dog is unclear...then you're not communicating properly...either you're doing something wrong or that method just isn't for that dog. You have to know the dog. Some methods you can "test out" w/o ruining your dog...your dog is either responsive or not (some dogs need more patience and time!). Other methods should NOT be for inexperienced owners/handlers and requires professional assistance (i.e. using the e-collar as a tool...people tend to use it as pushiment <--- wrong approach...it's suppose to be a positive a means of communication <--- correct approach ---> namely for distance learning and generally it's something one uses on an advanced dog - an already trained dog not a green [untrained] dog). The "old world methods"..."deep into the dark side"...well...are rather harsh...and to be honest...at that point...if you have to go THERE...it's NOT worth training that dog. Spare that dog the torture, be creative on how to manage that dog at home and keep that dog out of any trigger situations, then get another dog to train - a blank slate.
You want your dog to trust you, respect you and "be happy" when near you.
I'm pretty open-minded about various methods of training and continue learning. I take the good and the bad so I know what kinds of approaches to take, other kinds to avoid and some to just let float about in mind should I come across a dog with whom I could apply it to. Things that I'm uncertain of, I wait and learn and watch and continue to wait and learn until I've figured it out or found someone I feel I can trust to coach me, whose methods I'm comfortable with and who has the experience to back him/her up (with living proof of this experience).
Positive is always an excellent approach, but dogs also need a firm and fair correction every now and then. Some dogs can handle a little bit of pressure while others you'll need to back off and go easy on them. Think of how one would raise a human child...with love, care and yet toughness. Just enough so that they understand and enjoy your company...but not so much that they are out of control. It's a bit of a balancing act.
...to understand a dog's mind...you've got to walk in his or her's paws!
STOP thinking like a human and START thinking like a dog. Pay attention to every little detail...especially to the body movement & tone of voice of handler (the human). I assure you any problems I had or have with my dogs...I close my eyes and picture myself as either one of them...see it from their eyes...their perspective...and then usually what I did not understand...makes total sense! It's amazing what a bit of visual imaging can do.
[I think the only one true thing I learned from reading one of Cesar's books...is the idea of "dog psychology" and "energy" (a.k.a. "vibes").]
Forget the human's perspective...you must learn from the dog's themselves...they are really your TRUE teachers in life. Other humans who "get it" are just the messagers in between who make an attempt to close the gap between you and your dog and further your connection/communication more.
Very well put Corina. I appreciate your advice. I can tell you speak from both personal experience and academic research.
The energy and vibe thing you mentioned is quite magical with the little experience I have. When the puppy and I click, I don't even need to say a word, she syncs with me and makes it a quite enjoyable experience.
Thanks for a good perspective of how to train a dog. By the way, any books or dvds you particularly like, Corina?
At the moment I really don't have any "favorites" as far as books go...many of which titles have already been posted on the forums several times.
*Unfortunely*, I haven't seen hardly any canine training dvds, lol. One that I did see and particularly liked was on training detection dogs, it was it kinda fun to watch and the dogs seemed to enjoy the work - everything was motivational. See, I'm of NO use, I can't remember the title! If I can find it I'll let you know though (will post it here).
I've been fortunate enough to have come across many other both experienced and wise dog people of various backgrounds. So I take in their words of wisdom. I've heard and learned all kinds of things that you will never learn from reading a book or watching an educational video. This is, in my opinion, one of the best things about training dogs and traveling...to not only enjoy and learn with your dog but to meet other people and learn from them (and their dogs). I've meet some truely wonderful people because of my dogs and I've met some crazy ones too, lol. You'll get both but it's more rewarding then not.
I agree with Corina, that you should think like a dog when dealing with dogs - always try to be a step ahead of them (this prevents you from setting them up to fail - which I am a big stickler about).
Having said that, I do not think you should act like a dog.
Bringing this back to Cesar, this is my second biggest issues with his methods, many of them (his methods) are based on what he thinks (or what that dominance theory crap suggests) is the way a dog would behave to another dog.
Take the "Alpha Roll", for example. It is said that the mother dog uses that technique to "correct" her pup (and to force "submission" - which is crap, BTW). So he (and many others) teaches the "Alpha Roll" to puppy owners as a means of "correction" as it is supposed to mimic the behavior of the mother dog... Well guess what, your dog, and even your 8 week old pup, knows you are not a dog!
Truth is, dogs read humans better than humans read humans, there is no reason you need to act like a dog to train your dog. Dogs were domesticated and have lived with us for over 14,000 years - as just a pup they know every inch of your face and react to the smallest change in it. Dogs know us. You don't need to treat a dog like a human to train a dog, and you don't need to act like a dog to train a dog.
Act like a human and think like a dog, that is the key, IMHO.
Right- canids don't forcibly roll each other to begin with. That submissive roll on their back is an action presented by the appeasing dog to the one being appeased.
I liked the title of the article years ago in WDJ? I think-- about using positive reinforcement instead of physical domination. It was called: "Biscuits, Not Rolls"
1) McConnell, Patricia. How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have your Dog Love You for it!
Great little booklet. Very valuable information. I like it.
2) So Your Dog's Not Lassie: Tips for Training Difficult Dogs and Independent Breeds
OK. Some good information. Key point seems to be independent dog works for a reason or reward. The frequency and quantity of reward should be varied to keep independent dog guessing. I'm not too thrilled about it.
3) Ian Dunbar's Sirius Puppy Training and DogStarDaily
Good foundation. I like the way he teaches basic obedience and how he slowly phasing rewards out. I like his off leash heeling and attention getting exercises. We used the attention getting exercise with great progress with Aki. I'm checking his DogStarDaily for daily tips and articles.
4) Leerburg's Training DVDs and website
While I do not agree with many of his stuff, I like the attitude he has about protecting your puppy to avoid any negative socialization. He has no problem sending people and dogs approaching his puppy away if he's not comfortable. I like that a lot. Our dogs should feel secured and protected by us.
5) Cesar Millan
I know a lot of people disapprove of his method. I personally adore this guy. I totally buy into his Calm and Assertive, "Exercise, Discipline, Affection," "Animal, Specie, Breed, Name," "Limitation, Rules and Boundaries" and his other fundamental methods. Since we don't have cable, we are renting Dog Whisperer from Netflix and watching it from Season 1.
Just ordered Susan Garrett's Ruff Love book and Crate Games DVD from ClearRun. I wrote to Susan this morning and got a reply about an hour later. She said implementing even part of Ruff Love program will greatly improve our relationship with our dog.
Thank you very much again for all the suggestion and recommended reading list. We'll continue to educate ourselves.
For the record, I believe in Positive Reinforcement, the restriction to that positive reinforcement, and punishment too. I have not the experience nor seen convincing evidence that I should just go all positive training. In another words, I will admit that I use both positive reinforcement and punishment. It work well with my case. Aki and I enjoy each other so much more when there are discipline, rules, and affection.
I think the main reason that the mainstream has moved away from negative reinforcement and toward positive-only training methods is that negative reinforcement is tricky enough that, if you have the general public using those methods, you are going to get a certain percentage of unhappy dogs who have issues because the trainer didn't do it right.
I tried using a squirt gun on Tomoe to provide negative reinforcement for her biting. I convinced myself that she was not forming an association between the sensation and her biting even when I was able to get her within a second or two of her biting. I figured that I didn't want to risk causing her too much stress during the time it took me to make many mistakes and finally, hopefully learn how to administer an unpleasant sensation correctly.
I also found myself noticing, while in puppy kindergarten, that Tomoe is an order of magnitude more alert, aware, and sensitive to what is going on around her than the other pups her age. She's just so sharp. This makes me more nervous about the possible consequences of me not doing the correct correctly.
Furthermore, it seems like doing negative correction well involves the same level of engineering of the situation as positive reinforcement. If you can set up your dog to chew something inappropriate while you are peeking in from another room, why don't you set the dog up to succeed instead.
Also, I am a liberal softy who has been practicing Aikido for many years and I am biased against fighting / obstructing flow in general.
I've picked Kevin Behan's book back up and while I am not sure he has a defined, structured training program in there, his theories about dog behavior seem pretty good to me. He thinks that classical, operant, dominance, and other modalities are all somewhere between B.S. and circuitious.
"For the record, I believe in Positive Reinforcement, the restriction to that positive reinforcement, and punishment too. I have not the experience nor seen convincing evidence that I should just go all positive training. In another words, I will admit that I use both positive reinforcement and punishment. It work well with my case. Aki and I enjoy each other so much more when there are discipline, rules, and affection."
I am no saint, I have corrected/punished my dogs before. So, what I am about to write, please don't take it in a judgmental way, or as if I think I am a perfect dog owner (I am certainly not)...
I think something important to consider when choosing methods for training is the quickness of results. You will see quicker results with the more aversive types of training but the damage in the long run will be very negative. Positive methods will take longer, but will actually improve your relationship with your dog while you practice them - so the long-term effect is 100% positive while the long term effect of aversive methods can damage your relationship with your dog.
With a breed like the Akita, which can be a big and powerful animal, it is very wise to do everything you can to keep a positive relationship with your dog.
Recent studies show that dogs do understand the concepts of "fairness", so think twice before you adopt the mindset of "he's just a dog" or "dogs are dogs" and decide to use some forceful/negative method on your Akita for a behavior you don't like - more than likely your dog will evaluate the situation and see that you are *not* acting fairly... what will follow is the "eye for an eye" attitude you don't want to see in an Akita.
In other words...
You write: "I have not the experience nor seen convincing evidence that I should just go all positive training."
I would suggest you take the advice of others who have seen the final results from aversive types of training, instead of waiting to see what those methods may do to your dog, and your relationship with your dog, because when you get to that point, it may be too late, and the damage will be done (I am speaking from experience here).
I am on my blackberry so I will keep this brief. You don't have to look far to see aversion based methods don't work. Basically ANY dog bite you read about stems from a dog being taught that punishment works. 18 years in shelters has taught me one thing for sure; people who punish their dogs may control their dogs. But often they end up with animals that are shut down, fearful, or worse. Do reconsider punishment based methods if you hope to cultivate a healthy relationship with your dog.
I think there needs to some clarification between the term "punishment" and "negative reinforcement". There was a really good explanation in a Karen Pryor book that me and John read (I think it was don't shoot the dog)
The furthest me and John take negative reinforcement is Time Outs (no longer than a minute and immediately after the inappropriate behavior) and "No" or "AH". I've gotten into many discussions about the use of "no". Lots of people think that when I say "no" (which has the same definition as "ah" to Tiger) that Tiger doesn't know what I mean. If he didn't know, he wouldn't stop what he was doing. "No" or "Ah" illicits an immediate ceasing of the behavior from Tiger, which is my aim. It is never accompanied with a touch, a "bite" or a hit. We need our dogs to trust us and our judgements completely.
If you use force on your dog I feel like I'd be teaching Tiger that sometimes a violent response is ok. If he ever felt he was in control of a situation on the walk more than me (for example I'm nervous about 3 dogs pulling on leads coming towards us and he picks up on my nervoussnes) then based on our previous experiences together where I have resulted to violence would he be programmed to assume this was an OK response? Regardless of whether he could make that reasoning (which is doubtful, now that I think of it), he would be more likely to feel he had to take over the situation because I lose control (which is what hitting your dog is) so often.
I don't think any of that makes sense, I've never been much of a scholar and I've just done a 12 hour shift. But there's my two cents.
The only thing about Cesar Milan that I agree with is the "vibe" thing. Tiger is definitely like a mirror to me. We walked past 3 out of control springer spaniels but I was confident there would be no interaction, no problems and it worked but then we turned a corner and a german shepherd caught me by surprise and I jumped, lots of problems.
I think I might to correct myself when I say "punishment".
What I mean is that I will put Aki in the position that was called when she knowingly ignore it, and we will not accept any rude or wild behavior.
Some examples:
1) No petting unless she sits when she greets us, or else we fold our arms and turn sideway. 2) "Leave it" with food unless we say "OK, go get it", or else no food. 3) Peeing or marking inside of the house. I do bring her back to the spot, and she would show that she's sorry. We would isolate her for a short time. She usually comes back and be extra obedient to apologize. (Aki reads body language and energy very well) I totally disagree when people say dogs don't know what they did, and correcting them after soiling doesn't help. 4) No rushing to stranger or other dog unless the introduction is proper, i.e. not overly excited. 5) Will tell her to "settle down" if she becomes too excited in play or walk session. 6) ALWAYS sit for something she wants, pet, treat, chew toy, before walking out the door, after walking out of the door. 7) Tug on leash if she fixates or obsesses over a target, or to direct her attention.
When she does something right, even on her own, we'll always say "YES!" as our clicker sound, then praise, then food. Food reward is randomly given for task she does well.
After a training session, we'll let her loose in the backyard. Aki will run like a rocket for about 5 mins, darting here and there, and completely exhaust herself. That's when we'll relax and let her go crazy. She'll then sit by the door and ask to be let in.
I do not if this is considered "punishment" or correction or whatever term the dog community uses. The point is she is become a strong and heavy dog like many have mentioned. I would LOVE to just be her daddy and spoil her, I really would love to do that. We choose to have strict discipline because we look at the future when she grows up. We want her to be well behaved so that she can enjoy her life WAY BETTER. It breaks our heart sometimes to be strict with her, trust me; but we just have to be totally discipline with Aki so she'll form a good habit early on.
I know this is a long post, but I just want to clarify what I meant by "punishment". Since the day we got her home, we have never ever miss her potty break at 3:30 am in the morning, and the 2 daily walk in the morning and evening.
Aki is always also a basic obedient class conducted by APDT trainer. The trainer is very happy with 4 months old Aki's performance. Initially when we told the trainer, Aki's a Japanese Akita, the trainer told us we need to work extra hard. I think she changed her mind a bit when she saw how well behaved was Aki.
Our relationship with Aki is wonderful I think. She starts to come upstairs on her own to look for us more and more, EVEN she hates the stairs. The recommendation and advice from this forum help us tremendously. Almost all the book and DVD, even RAW diet tips, we got the leads from here. We want to continue to improve ourselves so we can give Aki a good life.
Thank you again for all the help and advice. I apologize if the post seems defensive.
3) Peeing or marking inside of the house. I do bring her back to the spot, and she would show that she's sorry. We would isolate her for a short time. She usually comes back and be extra obedient to apologize. (Aki reads body language and energy very well) I totally disagree when people say dogs don't know what they did, and correcting them after soiling doesn't help.
--- I would have to say making a dog "show it sorry" is anthropomorphizing to your whim. The dog is sad you are distressed but thinking that it understands "sorry" is expecting a dog to think like a human. Dragging back to the spot is counter productive and some dogs will actually become aggressive with that tactic or timid, may make you feel better venting your frustration but appeasement behavior does not mean the fully connect with "Sorry" in regard to the action of elimination. Really your best bet it to catch an action at a critical moment just at the squat/hike and break the behavior and then get the dog out the door. Reward when it eliminates in the correct area or crate for a time out. Don't give opportunities for mistakes in the first place. 14 weeks is not very old and some dogs will make mistakes on and off up until 8 months due hormonal, emotional and critical brain development that continues to occur as dogs grow.
Comments
>>>> That made me LOL. He does come off that way a bit.
I have been chatting with Kevin off-line, about various random topics. He has some rather astute observation to share and an interesting view on behavior. I appreciate his views since he comes from a Police dog training background. I have met a lot of GREAT trainers of all areas, but it seems there are clicker/positive trainers & schutzhund trainers and rarely do they over lap - that is where KB comes in, he, IMHO, connects the dot between the 2 without using any of that dominance/alpha crap. I'm pretty impressed with him at this point.
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I think it has to be said, and it hasn't yet, so I will be the one to do it...
The issue I have with Cesar's methods are that most of them are based on the old-school dominance/alpha rigid pack-order concepts that have been dead since the 80s. Most of the new studies coming out (for years now) about dogs & wolves (captive or wild) point out huge gaping holes in the old dominance/alpha theories. The theory is basically disproved at this point.
So, why would put any stake in a person that teaches his training based on obsolete scientific study done 10s of years ago? Seems silly.
It's like going through your life clinging to the obsolete theory that the earth is flat. Stupid, right?
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Then there is this...
Maui, he is a fearful, weak-nerved, puppy mill Shiba. I followed that alpha/dominance crap w/ him - loved Cesar - and, honestly, we got pretty quick results from those techniques - they seemed to work. Then a year or so passed, and we started to see that what we had actually done was cause Maui to be more fearful than he was when we started using those methods (they ruined any confidence the poor little guy had to begin with). We met with a behaviorist, and we realized we had ruined Maui with those methods - we still hate ourselves for that.
Since then, we have been using clicker training, and even Maui has come a long way - but he is still a very messed up dog, and he is our (everyday) reminder of why you shouldn't fallow that alpha/dominance crap.
Also, if you can get the same results from being positive, and giving your dog treats (instead of "corrections"), why would you choice the negative confrontational route or the fun positive one?
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I have not paid much attention to Neil Sattin, not for any specific reason other than I just am running out of time to read and follow everything I would like to.
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Interesting and I will be looking more closely at some of the elements.
I just skimmed over both their blogs. Much better writing for sure so I see where they are coming from a bit better.
Brad: Good point about the inaccuracy and outdatedness of the CM model.
With what I just skimmed via Stattin & also Kelley's blogs...There are some things I basically agree with (loose leash walking, play etc) but other things (tug) I would weigh it on context and the given dog's mouthiness. Again it's about context.
As far as formal obedience training....I would not rush that at all. However, I would say puppy socialization and play during puppyhood is really important though and puppy-k can really pull pups through if it is a good class. Overall there has to be a balance in what one decides to implement with a young dog. Owners often expect too much too soon and people in competitive dog sports sometimes push things way too soon as well.
Again it is good to look at one set of foundations like positive/clicker and then move over to look at others. I really don't believe other trainers from the clicker/positive reinforcement camp would necessarily dispute many of these points. In fact, Pat Miller actually has a book out on dog play so I really think many are thinking on a parallel track, whether they know it or not.
BTW, there are some dogs that absolutely hate or are fearful of the clicker and have sound aversion, so play/prey theory etc comes in to help. Dogs that have been traumatized that don't play, that has to be initiated so it is relearned.
Snf
I'm following the mainstream stuff with Tomoe right now because that's what we've got at the local school, and I wanted to get her used to classroom environment for the exposure to other puppies. I also don't claim to be a better trainer than people who train dogs for a living, no matter what their modality. The Natural Dog Training stuff seems like it can be worked into a classical / operant routine anyway.
If your dog is unclear...then you're not communicating properly...either you're doing something wrong or that method just isn't for that dog. You have to know the dog.
Some methods you can "test out" w/o ruining your dog...your dog is either responsive or not (some dogs need more patience and time!). Other methods should NOT be for inexperienced owners/handlers and requires professional assistance (i.e. using the e-collar as a tool...people tend to use it as pushiment <--- wrong approach...it's suppose to be a positive a means of communication <--- correct approach ---> namely for distance learning and generally it's something one uses on an advanced dog - an already trained dog not a green [untrained] dog).
The "old world methods"..."deep into the dark side"...well...are rather harsh...and to be honest...at that point...if you have to go THERE...it's NOT worth training that dog. Spare that dog the torture, be creative on how to manage that dog at home and keep that dog out of any trigger situations, then get another dog to train - a blank slate.
You want your dog to trust you, respect you and "be happy" when near you.
I'm pretty open-minded about various methods of training and continue learning. I take the good and the bad so I know what kinds of approaches to take, other kinds to avoid and some to just let float about in mind should I come across a dog with whom I could apply it to. Things that I'm uncertain of, I wait and learn and watch and continue to wait and learn until I've figured it out or found someone I feel I can trust to coach me, whose methods I'm comfortable with and who has the experience to back him/her up (with living proof of this experience).
Positive is always an excellent approach, but dogs also need a firm and fair correction every now and then. Some dogs can handle a little bit of pressure while others you'll need to back off and go easy on them. Think of how one would raise a human child...with love, care and yet toughness. Just enough so that they understand and enjoy your company...but not so much that they are out of control. It's a bit of a balancing act.
...to understand a dog's mind...you've got to walk in his or her's paws!
STOP thinking like a human and START thinking like a dog. Pay attention to every little detail...especially to the body movement & tone of voice of handler (the human). I assure you any problems I had or have with my dogs...I close my eyes and picture myself as either one of them...see it from their eyes...their perspective...and then usually what I did not understand...makes total sense! It's amazing what a bit of visual imaging can do.
[I think the only one true thing I learned from reading one of Cesar's books...is the idea of "dog psychology" and "energy" (a.k.a. "vibes").]
Forget the human's perspective...you must learn from the dog's themselves...they are really your TRUE teachers in life. Other humans who "get it" are just the messagers in between
The energy and vibe thing you mentioned is quite magical with the little experience I have. When the puppy and I click, I don't even need to say a word, she syncs with me and makes it a quite enjoyable experience.
Thanks for a good perspective of how to train a dog. By the way, any books or dvds you particularly like, Corina?
*Unfortunely*, I haven't seen hardly any canine training dvds, lol. One that I did see and particularly liked was on training detection dogs, it was it kinda fun to watch and the dogs seemed to enjoy the work - everything was motivational. See, I'm of NO use, I can't remember the title!
I've been fortunate enough to have come across many other both experienced and wise dog people of various backgrounds. So I take in their words of wisdom. I've heard and learned all kinds of things that you will never learn from reading a book or watching an educational video. This is, in my opinion, one of the best things about training dogs and traveling...to not only enjoy and learn with your dog but to meet other people and learn from them (and their dogs). I've meet some truely wonderful people because of my dogs and I've met some crazy ones too, lol. You'll get both but it's more rewarding then not.
Having said that, I do not think you should act like a dog.
Bringing this back to Cesar, this is my second biggest issues with his methods, many of them (his methods) are based on what he thinks (or what that dominance theory crap suggests) is the way a dog would behave to another dog.
Take the "Alpha Roll", for example. It is said that the mother dog uses that technique to "correct" her pup (and to force "submission" - which is crap, BTW). So he (and many others) teaches the "Alpha Roll" to puppy owners as a means of "correction" as it is supposed to mimic the behavior of the mother dog... Well guess what, your dog, and even your 8 week old pup, knows you are not a dog!
Truth is, dogs read humans better than humans read humans, there is no reason you need to act like a dog to train your dog. Dogs were domesticated and have lived with us for over 14,000 years - as just a pup they know every inch of your face and react to the smallest change in it. Dogs know us. You don't need to treat a dog like a human to train a dog, and you don't need to act like a dog to train a dog.
Act like a human and think like a dog, that is the key, IMHO.
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I liked the title of the article years ago in WDJ? I think-- about using positive reinforcement instead of physical domination. It was called: "Biscuits, Not Rolls"
OMG! Funniest thing ever!
tho I would consider poking a dog [ or human ] as a "negative" response
1) McConnell, Patricia. How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have your Dog Love You for it!
Great little booklet. Very valuable information. I like it.
2) So Your Dog's Not Lassie: Tips for Training Difficult Dogs and Independent Breeds
OK. Some good information. Key point seems to be independent dog works for a reason or reward. The frequency and quantity of reward should be varied to keep independent dog guessing. I'm not too thrilled about it.
3) Ian Dunbar's Sirius Puppy Training and DogStarDaily
Good foundation. I like the way he teaches basic obedience and how he slowly phasing rewards out. I like his off leash heeling and attention getting exercises. We used the attention getting exercise with great progress with Aki. I'm checking his DogStarDaily for daily tips and articles.
4) Leerburg's Training DVDs and website
While I do not agree with many of his stuff, I like the attitude he has about protecting your puppy to avoid any negative socialization. He has no problem sending people and dogs approaching his puppy away if he's not comfortable. I like that a lot. Our dogs should feel secured and protected by us.
5) Cesar Millan
I know a lot of people disapprove of his method. I personally adore this guy. I totally buy into his Calm and Assertive, "Exercise, Discipline, Affection," "Animal, Specie, Breed, Name," "Limitation, Rules and Boundaries" and his other fundamental methods. Since we don't have cable, we are renting Dog Whisperer from Netflix and watching it from Season 1.
Just ordered Susan Garrett's Ruff Love book and Crate Games DVD from ClearRun. I wrote to Susan this morning and got a reply about an hour later. She said implementing even part of Ruff Love program will greatly improve our relationship with our dog.
Thank you very much again for all the suggestion and recommended reading list. We'll continue to educate ourselves.
For the record, I believe in Positive Reinforcement, the restriction to that positive reinforcement, and punishment too. I have not the experience nor seen convincing evidence that I should just go all positive training. In another words, I will admit that I use both positive reinforcement and punishment. It work well with my case. Aki and I enjoy each other so much more when there are discipline, rules, and affection.
I tried using a squirt gun on Tomoe to provide negative reinforcement for her biting. I convinced myself that she was not forming an association between the sensation and her biting even when I was able to get her within a second or two of her biting. I figured that I didn't want to risk causing her too much stress during the time it took me to make many mistakes and finally, hopefully learn how to administer an unpleasant sensation correctly.
I also found myself noticing, while in puppy kindergarten, that Tomoe is an order of magnitude more alert, aware, and sensitive to what is going on around her than the other pups her age. She's just so sharp. This makes me more nervous about the possible consequences of me not doing the correct correctly.
Furthermore, it seems like doing negative correction well involves the same level of engineering of the situation as positive reinforcement. If you can set up your dog to chew something inappropriate while you are peeking in from another room, why don't you set the dog up to succeed instead.
Also, I am a liberal softy who has been practicing Aikido for many years and I am biased against fighting / obstructing flow in general.
I've picked Kevin Behan's book back up and while I am not sure he has a defined, structured training program in there, his theories about dog behavior seem pretty good to me. He thinks that classical, operant, dominance, and other modalities are all somewhere between B.S. and circuitious.
I am no saint, I have corrected/punished my dogs before. So, what I am about to write, please don't take it in a judgmental way, or as if I think I am a perfect dog owner (I am certainly not)...
I think something important to consider when choosing methods for training is the quickness of results. You will see quicker results with the more aversive types of training but the damage in the long run will be very negative. Positive methods will take longer, but will actually improve your relationship with your dog while you practice them - so the long-term effect is 100% positive while the long term effect of aversive methods can damage your relationship with your dog.
With a breed like the Akita, which can be a big and powerful animal, it is very wise to do everything you can to keep a positive relationship with your dog.
Recent studies show that dogs do understand the concepts of "fairness", so think twice before you adopt the mindset of "he's just a dog" or "dogs are dogs" and decide to use some forceful/negative method on your Akita for a behavior you don't like - more than likely your dog will evaluate the situation and see that you are *not* acting fairly... what will follow is the "eye for an eye" attitude you don't want to see in an Akita.
In other words...
You write: "I have not the experience nor seen convincing evidence that I should just go all positive training."
I would suggest you take the advice of others who have seen the final results from aversive types of training, instead of waiting to see what those methods may do to your dog, and your relationship with your dog, because when you get to that point, it may be too late, and the damage will be done (I am speaking from experience here).
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The furthest me and John take negative reinforcement is Time Outs (no longer than a minute and immediately after the inappropriate behavior) and "No" or "AH". I've gotten into many discussions about the use of "no". Lots of people think that when I say "no" (which has the same definition as "ah" to Tiger) that Tiger doesn't know what I mean. If he didn't know, he wouldn't stop what he was doing. "No" or "Ah" illicits an immediate ceasing of the behavior from Tiger, which is my aim. It is never accompanied with a touch, a "bite" or a hit. We need our dogs to trust us and our judgements completely.
If you use force on your dog I feel like I'd be teaching Tiger that sometimes a violent response is ok. If he ever felt he was in control of a situation on the walk more than me (for example I'm nervous about 3 dogs pulling on leads coming towards us and he picks up on my nervoussnes) then based on our previous experiences together where I have resulted to violence would he be programmed to assume this was an OK response? Regardless of whether he could make that reasoning (which is doubtful, now that I think of it), he would be more likely to feel he had to take over the situation because I lose control (which is what hitting your dog is) so often.
I don't think any of that makes sense, I've never been much of a scholar and I've just done a 12 hour shift. But there's my two cents.
The only thing about Cesar Milan that I agree with is the "vibe" thing. Tiger is definitely like a mirror to me. We walked past 3 out of control springer spaniels but I was confident there would be no interaction, no problems and it worked but then we turned a corner and a german shepherd caught me by surprise and I jumped, lots of problems.
What I mean is that I will put Aki in the position that was called when she knowingly ignore it, and we will not accept any rude or wild behavior.
Some examples:
1) No petting unless she sits when she greets us, or else we fold our arms and turn sideway.
2) "Leave it" with food unless we say "OK, go get it", or else no food.
3) Peeing or marking inside of the house. I do bring her back to the spot, and she would show that she's sorry. We would isolate her for a short time. She usually comes back and be extra obedient to apologize. (Aki reads body language and energy very well) I totally disagree when people say dogs don't know what they did, and correcting them after soiling doesn't help.
4) No rushing to stranger or other dog unless the introduction is proper, i.e. not overly excited.
5) Will tell her to "settle down" if she becomes too excited in play or walk session.
6) ALWAYS sit for something she wants, pet, treat, chew toy, before walking out the door, after walking out of the door.
7) Tug on leash if she fixates or obsesses over a target, or to direct her attention.
When she does something right, even on her own, we'll always say "YES!" as our clicker sound, then praise, then food. Food reward is randomly given for task she does well.
After a training session, we'll let her loose in the backyard. Aki will run like a rocket for about 5 mins, darting here and there, and completely exhaust herself. That's when we'll relax and let her go crazy. She'll then sit by the door and ask to be let in.
I do not if this is considered "punishment" or correction or whatever term the dog community uses. The point is she is become a strong and heavy dog like many have mentioned. I would LOVE to just be her daddy and spoil her, I really would love to do that. We choose to have strict discipline because we look at the future when she grows up. We want her to be well behaved so that she can enjoy her life WAY BETTER. It breaks our heart sometimes to be strict with her, trust me; but we just have to be totally discipline with Aki so she'll form a good habit early on.
I know this is a long post, but I just want to clarify what I meant by "punishment". Since the day we got her home, we have never ever miss her potty break at 3:30 am in the morning, and the 2 daily walk in the morning and evening.
Aki is always also a basic obedient class conducted by APDT trainer. The trainer is very happy with 4 months old Aki's performance. Initially when we told the trainer, Aki's a Japanese Akita, the trainer told us we need to work extra hard. I think she changed her mind a bit when she saw how well behaved was Aki.
Our relationship with Aki is wonderful I think. She starts to come upstairs on her own to look for us more and more, EVEN she hates the stairs. The recommendation and advice from this forum help us tremendously. Almost all the book and DVD, even RAW diet tips, we got the leads from here. We want to continue to improve ourselves so we can give Aki a good life.
Thank you again for all the help and advice. I apologize if the post seems defensive.
--- I would have to say making a dog "show it sorry" is anthropomorphizing to your whim. The dog is sad you are distressed but thinking that it understands "sorry" is expecting a dog to think like a human. Dragging back to the spot is counter productive and some dogs will actually become aggressive with that tactic or timid, may make you feel better venting your frustration but appeasement behavior does not mean the fully connect with "Sorry" in regard to the action of elimination. Really your best bet it to catch an action at a critical moment just at the squat/hike and break the behavior and then get the dog out the door. Reward when it eliminates in the correct area or crate for a time out. Don't give opportunities for mistakes in the first place. 14 weeks is not very old and some dogs will make mistakes on and off up until 8 months due hormonal, emotional and critical brain development that continues to occur as dogs grow.
Snf