Off-Leash
Alright guys, time to fess up! How many of you run / walk / etc your pups off-leash? lol 
No, in all seriousness. We all know Nihon Ken has a high=prey drive & desire to chase / hunt instinct, hence why we normally advise people to keep their pups leashed at all times. [ which is the responsible thing to do, regardless of whether your pup is good offleash or not ]
Now, what sparks this question is the fact it was pointed out to me that when used in hunting the Nihon Ken are off-leash.
So, the questions...
General:
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
- Why?
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Ultimately, the point of this is to see if there are nihon ken that can be reliable off-lead dogs, whether it's just a select few, & if it's possible with any nihon ken given extensive training.
Hope you guys don't mind humoring me
~
No, in all seriousness. We all know Nihon Ken has a high=prey drive & desire to chase / hunt instinct, hence why we normally advise people to keep their pups leashed at all times. [ which is the responsible thing to do, regardless of whether your pup is good offleash or not ]
Now, what sparks this question is the fact it was pointed out to me that when used in hunting the Nihon Ken are off-leash.
So, the questions...
General:
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
- Why?
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Ultimately, the point of this is to see if there are nihon ken that can be reliable off-lead dogs, whether it's just a select few, & if it's possible with any nihon ken given extensive training.
Hope you guys don't mind humoring me
~
Comments
We decided that Hilo and Lani were good enough to have off-lead, so we let them off on our way back home. They walked with us for a while and then they both started kinda trotting out in front of us... They got faster and faster, we did too, trying to catch up.
Then we got to a high point on the trail, where we could look down and see them and we stopped and watched (Jen was not ok with me making us stop, but she trusted me).
Silly Akita, they walked right to the front door of our house and sat in the shade waiting for us. LOL! I guess it was too hot that day for a walk. Hilo was like "F this, its hot, I'm going home". LOL.
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I used to let my half kai run offleash at a huge hayfield when he was 4 mos. to 2 years old. Also in the forest, and on hikes. none of this is fenced, but all of it is big. Unlike a dog park where you put the dogs in an enclosed area and watch- which I would never do- the whole thing was an exercise in Follow Me, as I walked with a few other humans and their dogs, so it was very much 'stay with the group' and neither the greyhound mix nor the kai mix ever just decided to ditch me.
Prey drive with him or my greyhound mix was never a problem, (greyhounds are also not supposed to be allowed off leash) they did hunt but not far from me, and sometimes they caught and ate small furries. mmm protein...good on ya.
Training- we didnt carry treats in the field- too contentious for a pack of loose dogs. I walked them on leash aroudn as pups, then allowed them to drag the leash then removed it. Much check ins- prompted and unprompted- much Come! Yay! Ok, go play! I did carry treats in the woods to reward. Both dogs took standard pet obedience courses, and learned recall there too.
I never run them off leash on/near roads. Only in rec areas, state parks, forests, my own yard. I have run both dogs off leash in parks and trails out of state and they did well keeping w/i ear and eye contact. I bell them to make sure I can hear them (2 diff bells so I know whos who).
I still run my greyhound mix off leash- her recall is near 100% given a few seconds. Not 100% immediate though if theres a dog to greet or a furry to dig. We have never trained the emergency Down.
I only run them at times and in places where people are unlikely to be met- 8am on a workday morning the woods is all ours.
I do NOT run my kai mix off leash anymore. He is too fearful and reactive to make diplomatic decisions should he run into a situation without me, he also looks scary to many people and too much like a wild animal to others which guarantees a different response than someone encountering a loose golden retriever in the woods, which doesn't help the encounter if anyone he met would yell at or shoo him, or if someone thought he was something to shoot. It may be moot b/c we hardly ever meet any people, but i still worry imagining it. Two times he has become scared in the woods and run back to the car w/o me. That was too scary for me.
Since I joined the Forum, I have adjusted my expectations for him, and feel much more support for keeping him on leash and in harness from this community, since we are not the sporting dog people I hang out with in real life, and the expectation here is that nihon ken are leash dogs. He will never run offleash in public again, and he and I both know that's A-ok. I have felt very much reinforced for keeping him on-lead when random encounters have popped up (such as my horse encounter in Reactive Dog theatre)
Reilly-gal will continue to run off leash in appropriate places and times (and a few inappropriate places like the golf course but in appropriate times like the evening or after a good snow), she is of the temperament and training to succeed at it, and we both enjoy it together a great deal. She keeps in range of me, is not interested in people and leaves them alone, she is respectful of horses and she is diplomatic with dogs. She has proven herself over 6 years of experience: excellent recall and incident-free. Maybe her GSD/Lab half makes her more biddable than her greyhound half would ordinarily allow her to be...
Here are your questions:
General:
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
The Kai.
- Why?
Because I have one and I'm bias. lol. I think Shibas are too independent. Shikoku seem to have more energy and an even higher prey drive. Akita may be as reliable, or more, than Kai but I don't have any experience with them. I think it's the loyalty that the Kai have that makes them more reliable.
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Yes, because I have seen it.
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
Kai
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
Read above.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
Still training. I'm expecting two years.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
Treats in the pocket. 50 foot lead on a basketball court and field at the H.S. next to my house.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
80%
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
Read above.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Hiking on trails with fences, beach with fence, dog park (we walk the perimeter and I make him stay with me). The dog park is really a good test. Koda always wants to run off, but won't when I make him walk the perimeter with me. He gets temporarily distracted at times, but hey he's still a baby.
General:
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
Since I have not had much experience with any of the breeds other than Shiba, I do not feel I am qualified to answer this knowledgeably. But I am going to go out on a limb and say probably the Kai Ken.
- Why?
From what I have heard from Kai owners, their dogs are more focused and bonded with them.
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Definitely, given loads of training.
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
I have two Shibas.
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
When we walk, they are ALWAYS on a leash.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
I am not comfortable with Nola off-lead at all. And I probably never will be, her prey drive is way too high and her focus is way too low.
Bella, on the other hand, I am working with her to possibly do some off leash work. She is almost four, and we have been working on 'solid' recalls for about a year now. She is doing really well... but sometimes still gets really distracted. Currently she is allowed 'free' on a trailing 30ft lead. I am not sure how long it will take us to work up to no lead at all. I am planning on doing agility with her this Spring and hope that it will help with her focus and reliability.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
Focus techniques such as 'watch me' and 'look what I got'.
Recall activities such as 'come get your cookie' and 'come'.
Direction following activities such as 'this way' and 'follow me'.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
Bella is about 90% now!!!
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
Not yet, but hopefully soon with Bella.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Nowhere yet!
Personally, I feel that it's not really the breed but more what that dog is grown up used to doing. If, ever since puppyhood, that dog has been off leash and used to it, they are more inclined to stay close or come back than a dog who is rarely off leash. You take a dog who has spent all their life on leash and take the leash off, once they realize that they aren't tethered to you, it's time to indulge in this rare opportunity and just keep running.
For example, if I take one of my boys and let them loose in the woods, I might as well not expect to see them again. They aren't used to being off leash except when it comes to being in the dog park. So once the leash is gone, so are they. But, when we take them to the dog park there is a phenomenon in their off leash attitude. Our big section dog part is a little more than an acre and is half woods half field, the majority of the dogs stay in the field area. Every time we go to the dog park, we'll take a walk through the wooded section, along the edge of the fence. And to our amazement, the boys will stay pretty close to us, run off and come back, bumping into us. We've always done this with them at the dog park, but when we've tried once or twice outside the dog park in another confined area, they were GONE.
This difference in how they act got me to thinking about how dogs don't generalize their training. If you always train them to sit in the livingroom, that doesn't mean they will listen in the kitchen. If a dog is always good at being off leash at the dog park, that doesn't mean they'll be good outside the dog park. If a puppy grows up being off leash everywhere, than they have learned to generalize what they are to do when off leash. Both my boys unconfined off leash experiences stopped when they weren't staying under foot, when they wanted to explore the world. If I had continued and allowed them to explore, yet still emphasized that they should check in with me, I bet they would have been really great off leash dogs.
Anyways, that's my thoughts, and here's an added question to Osy's topic:
At what age did you start practicing off leash walking with your pups and how often do you actually use a leash on your pups?
I do need to stress that Koda is good off leash at places he has been with me since four months old. I agree with Beth. Sunday's running off was in a place we had never been. I should have put him on a long lead and practiced his recall the first visit their.
We were at Long Beach (the one in Canada, not the one in California) and when I got tired of failing at surfing, I started heading back to the beach. On the way there, I spotted a Shiba chasing after a guy's surfboard leash. The guy and his friend went out surfing, the Shiba stayed and stood in the shallowest part of the waves. I walked over and stuck out my hand for him to sniff, which he did gingerly and then ignored me. His attention was focused out in the waves, where his owner was. The guy eventually came back in and I chatted with him for a bit, telling him that I've never met a Shiba willing to play in the water. He responded that I'd probably never meet one so good offleash as well. I agreed. He said that he had huskies before and in comparison the Shiba was a real challenge. He said the secret to his offleash training was that he started when Astroboy (the Shiba) was very young, and made sure he was 100% reliant on him (for shelter, food, etc). I was really impressed, to say the least. Later I saw the guy down the beach and Astroboy around the other end - the guy whistled and after a few moments the Shiba came running.
I think Beth brought up a good point with starting young. I watched a video from Shigeru the other day with Haru's recall - she goes running off into the bush and he blows a dog whistle, and she comes back. Brad mentioned a similar thing - they started offleash with Blue younger and he is much better than their other dogs (though I did ask if he thought it was a breed thing... Blue being a PP breed might be more inclined to stay with his "people" to do his job). Dogs also don't generalize well, like Beth said, so that's why recall could be really high in the house or the back yard but next to zero in the woods.
I still wouldn't ever trust letting a dog offleash near a busy road or if the dog doesn't know how to properly interact with other people or dogs that may appear.
To summarize: If you want a good offleash dog, start young, and take him/her offleash in as many places as possible.
You can do things like that in Utah.
Sukoshi's off-leash experience is restricted to the fenced in dog park and my yard.
Josephine is a Kai, to best of our knowledge and belief. I believe that she was quite young (3 months or so) when we started her off-leash (at least at the farm). Her recall is very good now... I would guess 80-90%, accounting for her reluctance to give up on the playing with another dog, or digging and sniffing or other distractions some of the time (have to call her more than one time then). Funny thing, sometimes she will not respond to her name for either Steve or I, but then I whistle and she comes right along. Other times, I find a "stern tone" will break her concentration. And lots of the time she will just come happily wagging her tail when we call her.
Josephine has been trained with treats ocassionally, and mostly lots of praise (she is not always food-motivated, but is very eager to please). She also attended a first level "puppy" class when she was about a year old which improved her learning curve considerably (or most likely educated us on how to train a dog...). She is now getting close to 3 years (in Feb. 2010).
Having only had experience with Josephine, I would have to say the Kai is the best off-leash, but I don't really know for sure. It is a certainty that hunting dogs have to be off-leash, I think, so maybe if the Kai is the official hunting breed they deserve that distinction. But I believe some of the other Nihon Ken's have hunting in their heritage, so maybe it becomes a "toss-up" on that question.
Don't know, have only owned a Kai, and have pretty much only seen other Nihon Ken off leash when they're hunting. Most of the Kishu I've seen tend to pretty good.
- Why?
...
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Yes, probably depends on the individual dog/owner combo.
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
Kai
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
Majority off leash, though most of the time it's in the mountains with not a soul around, and no other dogs. Anywhere where there are cars/lots of people or dogs she goes on leash.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
Still in the works, but I've been training her since day one in 'controlled' environments.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
Long lead, treats (but only for the first few days), dog whistle, repetition repetition repetition.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
High 90's. Only time she won't immediately recall is when there are other dogs around. She'll stop and stare for a few seconds and maybe try to get a whiff before coming back.
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
Anytime any dog I own is off leash I don't feel 100 percent safe/confident. There are always unknowns. I don't mind, it keeps me on my toes, and I'm constantly on the look out.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
All of the above.
I don't own any of the others and have never tried the others off lead.
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Yes
- What is your dog's breed?
I have Shiba
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
I take them off lead where I safely can. Beebe trains off lead usually indoors and out. Walks at the off leash park are occasional, as are beach hikes which are also off lead. I occasionally tether Ike to Beebe although he has good recall as well.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
Beebe has been doing off lead work since I first brought her home. It's been just over 2 years of lots and lots of training in many different settings, all sorts of places, to get her to be reliable. She will still give chase (I don't discourage that but I do do extreme amounts of focus work) so I have to be careful where I take her. The same thing with Ike.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
Play rewards, prey toys (I use toys that trigger their prey drive to get excellent recalls), lots of focus exercises, lots of bonding and confidence boosting exercises, we do agility, obedience, rally, flyball and some conformation. Even though we don't enter a lot of competitions, we do go to matches and visit at ringside where they get lots of practice on and off lead and socializing. It helps them deal with distractions.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
Upwards of 80% is a guess, so 8-9 times out of 10 if I call Beebe she stops what she is doing within a few seconds and makes her way over to me, even if it's slow and she doesn't always do a perfect obedience front. As long as I can grab her that's all I want. Ike is much less, on a bad day like 50%, usually higher but not as reliable (he's been with me for 1 year) so we don't play that game except in totally enclosed areas or else he has to drag a 50ft line/be tethered to Beebe.
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
I feel nervous. I would rather nobody else be around and I always worry a random mean dog will just pop out of nowhere and try to attack my dogs. I would feel better if they were Akita size. This is why even after 2 years of dedicated training, I still only occasionally do off lead even with my best trained dog.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Dog park (but not Ike if other dogs are there), on hikes if no other dogs-Beebe, Ike is on a long line, at the beach-both off.
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash? and Why?
I would assume that the less independent/less prey crazy dogs would be more reliable off leash for obvious reasons. I don't know all of the nihonken very well but my guess would be a very chill and owner-centric JA would be the most reliable (and visible...and most likely to tire out lol). A lot of people are talking about Kai's owner-centricity but I'm still a noob so I couldn't say!
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Absolutely. I think a lot of it is up to the individual dog's personality ... I mean training is obviously key but some dogs will be more successful with that than others.
- What is your dog's breed?
Ki looks like a Kai in a Shiba costume...so I don't know.
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
Never. I like the idea of getting there someday...in a safe area far removed for everything lol...but I know that it's not something we can do right now. I know that he was off leash once on an otherwise empty beach with my dear friends. He did well since there were zero animal distractions and a lot of seaweed to chew on...but I currently find off-leash to be too risky with him.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
I know it's 100% *un*reliable in any case where a strange animal is concerned. I really want to work on Ki's recall...I *really* want to encourage 'checking in' with me. He just switches into that full focus hunter mode so quickly.
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
Not at all but I do know other dogs that I would be more confident with off-leash. Ki is just not one of them right now. I'm learning not to feel guilty about that. I know Ki gets a lot of exercise with the leash on. He loves his backpack, he loves long treks, he loves being out and about with his leash on. Right now, that's good enough for us.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Fenced yards. hehe Empty dog parks. I had a really bad experience with him at a dog park so I have been avoiding them.
He's doing a great job at sticking close to me, maybe slightly ahead or behind, if he's smelling something or stopping to pee.
Yesterday we came across this loud poodle, that started barking as soon as she saw us. I told Kuma to stop and sit, and so he did, until the owner of the poodle came to get her away. So I have to consider that a very positive experience.
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
Not sure, but I'd say the Akita is high up that list.
-Why?
For what I know of the other breeds, Akita seem more willing to please. Probably a bit biased here.
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
I agree with Shigeru," probably depends on the individual dog/owner combo."
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
Akita
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
Almost 100% on leash. A few minutes of off leash a day recently.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
I will never feel comfortable with it. A dog is a dog, no matter how much training he/she has basic instincts are always there.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
Baby steps. Not even using treats or a clicker for now. Of course I no doing it out of the blue, and Kuma does have some training background that helps him listen.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
He always comes back, might take him a sniff or two before he starts to walk. (can only think of one situation where we had to run after him to catch him, in the snow)
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
No.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
The square behing our building, some times the park when doing some recall training.
Gin is a totally different shiba her prey drive overcomes her and she would run & forget all about her family and her current life. Her recall is poor. Levi's recall is close to 100%,I can't think of a time when he didn't listen to me.
I would not walk either of my guys off leash in an urban setting though with cars & other dangerous distractions and situations.
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
Only having owned the two (shikoku and shiba), I can only say that my shikoku is much, much more reliable than my shiba
- Why?
Rakka is more obedient in coming when called and will stay close to her people anyway. She will even follow the kids around and not leave their side. Tojo, on the other hand, is much less a "pack" animal, and basically does his own thing. Although, I have to say that Tojo is less likely to get into trouble. If given the choice, he mostly just hangs around the porch. Rakka does like to chase things, but I still haven't seen her leave the property, except to follow Isaac that one time he decided to go walking down the road. Rakka still likes to get into it with the critters. When she got a face full of porcupine quills, the other dogs just sort of stood there and watched her while she barked at the porcupine until it quilled her. Of course, when I lived in the city and I took Tojo to the off-leash park all the time and the only thing he ever did that was disobedient was get sick of the walk and go back to the car.
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Not in every situation, but I don't think they can't ever go off-leash.
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
Shikoku and shiba.
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
Most of their exercise is off-leash on my 160 acre property.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
For the first year or so living out here, I'd only take the dogs out on long lines. Then, I'd let them drag the lines, then I eventually tried leaving them all on a line except one, then I tried them all off leash, and now I don't put them on the line for walks/exercise. I have a long line by the door for potty breaks when I want them to go out and come right back in or I don't want to watch them, but even for potty breaks, they're pretty well trained to just go out and come back in. I give them a treat every single time we go back in the house, so they like to come inside to get their treats when they're done their business.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
When out walking, I often carry toys and treats with me, and every time they come to me (whether I call them or not) I play with them or give them a treat. Mostly, though, they seem to just prefer walking with someone and will follow me (or stick close if I'm just sitting - like now that I can't walk well due to pregnancy issues). Tojo will sometimes refuse to follow me, but that's just because he'd rather sit on the porch than go anywhere, which is okay when we're at home.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
Depends. I usually call them to follow me (not come right to me) or I call them and open the door and they run inside. When I call them to put the leash on them, I'd say Rakka is 80-90%, the other 10-20% of the time, she still comes, I just have to crouch down and she sort of dances and sings an indirect route to me. Tojo is more like 50%, but he doesn't tend to go anywhere he's not supposed to and if I need him to go inside *now*, Rakka helps me catch him. Although, he tends to get sick of the outdoors and sit on the porch long before anyone else is ready to go inside.
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
On my property, I feel safe, because there are few hazards, the property is really big, and they have a very good sense of the property and not leaving it. There's even a herd of cattle kitty-corner to us, and Rakka barked at them once when she first noticed them, but didn't venture off the property. Isaac took off down the road once, and Rakka followed him past the cows without trying to eat them. Tojo only cares about rabbits and birds, but he just chases them around the yard. The pups generally ignore things that aren't on the property. Rakka chases critters around the property, too, but I have yet to see her chase anything off the property.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
I wouldn't let Tojo off leash anywhere other than my property or an enclosed area. Rakka I would, if it were fairly isolated (no traffic, not a tonne of other dogs) and if she had a GPS tracking device. Although, if I lived in the city again, I probably would take them to the off-leash dog park because they need to run around sometimes, even though the dog park isn't totally fenced in, but it is out of town away from traffic.
Akita. American, if that makes any difference.
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
No. Never. Though I must point out he's a rescue who has his own issues with strange-dogs and occasionally loud noises. If I had a puppy, I'd definitely try it out and see. I think it's all down to the training. I can't see this ever being the case with Tiger, unfortunately.
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
It would depend how said pup reacted to the training and how fast he picked it up. One thing I've noticed with our akita is that whilst he has all his commands down to a tee, if he doesn't want to do it, he isn't going to which would obviously limit our control of him off-leash in a situation with unknown variables (ie off leash dogs, people etc)
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
I would use everything mentioned above. We use positive re-inforcement and a clicker, I've been trying him in the garden on the flexi with the dog whistle. No luck so far, lol
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
in the house he comes when called, regardless of what he's doing or where we are. In the garden it's about 40%. Outside in the big bad world I would estimate 10 - 20%. We're teaching "watch me" at the moment to try and get him to focus on us when we need him to, it has a 10-20% success rate. Just depends what he's doing at the time and if it's worth more or less than cheese/chicken.
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
One thing thats stopped me trying too hard for off leash training is that my state of mind (based on past experiences with Ti and an overactive imagination) would always be worrying at what might be around the corner and panicking if he saw another dog. Obviously that'll effect him. So whilst he may well be ready one day for off-leash, I don't know if I would ever be able to relax and I'd then be setting him up to fail.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
We don't really have dog parks, bar the one which is full of trouble making dogs/owners so it'd be hiking when we're out in the wilderness/alone.
The right has to be earned with focus and good recall in that circumstance.
We have a 1 acre dog park and each and every time we are there the Shibas go directly to the perimeter and complete a border patrol survey along the edge. Generally they pack up to do this and when in that mode the further they get the less they care about human interaction since they are focused on sniffing out tasks at hand. They have no real desire to interact with other dogs at the park and most often you will see my dogs way out yonder at the furthest boundary while the regular dogs are happy to play with their owners at the front.
When complete with the border survey my Shibas come up to the nearest gate to see how it opens/latches or to survey who will open it. Really there is too much at stake and traffic too dense that we won't even begin to risk it here in lands that are part of the uber urban landscape. Honestly, some of the Shibas do not like the dog park at all so it is used in selective times and cases. There are just too many batty owners and untrained dogs to trust off leash experiences in our neck of the woods.
Snf
Prey drive is much too high in these breeds - and I've spent WAAAY too much time chasing my Kai after the kids have accidentally let her out.
If you've got a side-walker who stays close, congrats - but you are an anomaly, and if a bunny or something shows up, well... I've nearly dislocated my shoulder with the Kai trying to get at small woodland creatures. My Akita is still a baby, so can only imagine how much fun that would be!
I'm going to throw you a question.
I walked my Kai today off leash. I don't go anywhere that he could get hit by a car or anything like that, but I'm amazed at how well he does. I say "walk with me" when he kind've lolligags and he's right back where he needs to be. If he runs after something, I just stand still and he makes his way back. I should also say that I walk him where he can see me, no wooded areas yet.
Mine's 9 months old and has a very high prey drive, but his attachment to me is uncanny.
I live in good old suburbia - with plenty of cars & traffic within a short distance (i.e. out my front door where the road is...).
Would she come back? Yes - eventually. But - what might happen to her during the time she's gone is my concern.
My Chow Chows were always *right by my side* - but that's the kind of dog they are. I could go sans leash anywhere... But not with my Kai or Akita. No way/no how.
If it works for you and you've had no problems, then enjoy it and count your blessings, but don't let your guard down. These dogs are made to run & hunt. And they almost universally stink at coming when called...
- What breed of the 6 nihon ken do you think is most reliable off-leash?
From what I have seen personally, I think any one them can be reliable although I think the Hokkaido and the Kishu is the easiest to train for it.
- Why?
Just from my own personal experience but I have see alot of Kai off leash with no issues. My Dad had a hokkaido when I was a kid and he was great off leash all the time.
- Do you think it's possible to have a nihon ken successfully become an off-leash dog?
Hell yes!
For Nihon Ken Owners:
- What is your dog's breed?
Kishu all the way.
- Do you walk your dog w/out a leash? Occasionally, most of the time, or all the time?
While hunting or walking in the mountains, always. Walking in the neighborhood, always leashed due to small dogs and cats in the area (oh and bangers with pitbulls)
- How much training / how long did it take for you to be comfortable with letting your pup off leash?
Riki and Yuki has had alot of training but Riki will only be off leash when he strikes a pig, Taro is still in training but he is doing excellent.
- What kind of training methods did you employ?
Give the dogs a bit of freedom to explore, my dogs will always keep me with in their eye sight when they are searching for pigs. Every time they come back to me I give them a treat and praise them like crazy. All done with voice commands or a little bit of whistle.
- If you had to guess on a percentage, how well is your pups recall?
Riki-he cant hear any more so he does not run off leash any more.
Yuki-95%.
Taro-80%
- Do you feel safe / confident in allowing your dog off leash?
Yes, no issues yet althoug Riki chased some ones yorki in my neighborhood and gave it a heart attack.
- Where do you allow your pup to be off leash? [ dog parks, walks, hiking, hunting, etc. ]
Always in the woods while hunting or hiking.
I would never let my Kai off leash near cars. But I'm with Gen give them some freedom in nature and they will keep you in sight. When Koda runs off I just stay still and he comes right back.
Part of it was our own fault - having had Chows for years, we didn't really know about "runners" - and we surprised about this initially. Also having two very young kids when Soren was a puppy led to more than a couple of "oops" in terms of letting her out.
In the woods/open area far from cars, I know she'd come back - but she'd also take FULL advantage of the freedom at first. But I've just seen so many kai, akitas & shibas that simply don't respond to "come" commands at all... And while my Kai wouldn't ever "hitch a ride with stranger", my Akita is like a drunk sorority girl - she'll go home with the first person to pay attention to her! (hope I'm not overly offending any sorority girls here on the board ;-0) so I'd honestly be worried about her being taken by somebody.
I guess for ME - going without a lead would be out of the question - ever. But I can see how, if you've trained them for hunting/hiking/etc., and it's always been part of their life they could be trusted. I think for most average "suburban/non-sportsman" owners, you'd just be asking for heartache & trouble.
Good points for consideration, in terms of different environments/habits.
Koda and I brought a Shiba out with us last weekend to Pt. Isabelle. It sits on the San Francisco Bay and there are physical barriers (i.e. the ocean) that stops the dogs from getting out. They act like a natural fence for them. Bella, the Shiba, took off for a minute and Koda followed but I knew they couldn't go anywhere too far and that they would be able to run right back. They would always be in sight. I would definitely feel more insecure with a shiba off leash. Koda went about 200 feet before he realized how far away from me he was. He looked back, and jetted straight to me. In a controlled environment like that I'm fine with him off leash, but no way would I walk down the street with him off leash. One dog/animal running and yes he would be off in a second.
The shiba on the other hand came back when she was good and ready! lololol
I'd never let them off leash in a place they knew well, though, because I know then they'd come back whenever they felt like, as they'd be more confident about the area. A couple of times one of the Shibas has gotten out of the yard, and when they do, it is SO frustrating, because they come back when they feel like it. My male, Toby, is particularly frustrating because he likes to play the "you can't catch me" game of starting to come home, then running just out of reach when he sees you. Luckily, I live in a semi-rural area, and there is very little traffic, so when they have gotten loose, they tend to check out the neighborhood dogs, but not go away too far. Still, it is nervewracking.
I do feel nervous about having them off leash, so even most of the time I'm hiking, they are on leash.
My GSD was fine off leash even as a younger dog, and now he is old and can't really go for hikes because of his arthritis, but he sticks close. No surprise there, I guess. But I often kept him on leash even if he didn't need it, because he's a big boy and intimidated people just by his looks, so I didn't want other hikers to be nervous (and they seemed to be even when he was sitting quietly by my side).
I used to think that I really wanted a dog that could be off-leash, but then when I had one, I realized I didn't really care about it that much after all, and so it doesn't bother me at all to have the Shibas who will mostly always be on leash.