Training a Kai Ken

Comments

• JessicaRabbit

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  As a pit bull owner and owner of s Shikoku (sorry no Kai, Japanese dogs in general have a number of similar traits) my pit bulls have always been MUCH easier to train and work with than my Nihon Ken. Leaps and bounds easier. Pit bulls have been bread for hundreds of years to be people pleasers. So to hear of a willful difficult one, and knowing that you said your friend does nothing with theirs, I would say that sounds more like a reflection on your friend then the dog.
  
  Having worked in rescue for most of my life now, I would say pit bulls are the easiest dogs in the world to train without any hesitation. My Shikoku has always been the test of my patience. My shiba was even more so. Worth every bit of the frustration but nonetheless frustrating.
  
  With regard to training, I am a devoted believer in positive reinforcement methods, especially for Nihon Ken. They do not react well to aversive methods AT ALL. Classes make a huge difference because they allow you to work with your dog in many different scenarios and a lot of distraction. Other than that the main thing is just to be very very very consistent with your dog.
  
  That said I would make same suggestions for any breed.
• Sangmort

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  I think, from what I've read & researched about Kai, is they can be a bit hard-headed.
  
  They love to do physical work [ hunting, hiking, packing, guarding ] but as far as "obedience" goes they can be a little stubborn, just because they don't "enjoy" it as much as actual physical work. I think, in terms of "bidability" Akita are the easiest, & shiba the hardest. The rest of the Nihon Ken [ Kishu, Shika, Hokka, Kai ] all fall in the range of "middle."
  
  That said, if you start from an early age, AND continually train your pup, he won't be too "difficult." However, a big thing with Kai is you need to make it worth their time. That said, every dog is different & it will mostly depend on the temperament / personality of your puppy.
  
  But, what most people would see as "difficult to train" I see as challenging & fun! I don't want a pup that'll do everything I say from the get go, I want a pup who will learn to respect me as I, in turn, give my dog respect.
  
  With nihon ken, I think it's 99% about respect / trust. This is why aversive methods [ hitting, choke, shock, etc. ] tend not to work well on Nihon Ken.
  
  I think it will also depend on how you are raising your pup. I'm not sure with Kai, but "Nothing in Life is Free" tends to work well enough on Shiba. [ & even cats ] I'm sure it'd be a good method to apply to other nihon ken as well.
  
  Essentially, your dog, WHATEVER the breed, is only going to put out what work you put into him. Consistent, FUN, rewarding, training is the key to success!
  
  My $oo.o2 ~
• sjp051993

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Tora has been wonderful to train. She never leaves my side and is the only dog I can trust off leash. Now, not every Kai is that way. Tora's breeder spent alot of time early on with the puppies socializing them with people. Tora has the type of personality where she just wants to please. Always use positive training methods.
• tjbart17

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Stacey and I have had the same experience. Koda is easy to train and loves pleasing me. I trusted him at an early age to walk off leash. Kind've slowed that down for the past couple months, but then started allowing him off leash again, and he is always right by my side. Tora and him are from the same litter, and I think that we were really blessed with dogs who have great temperments by nature. I have also always said that Koda's first 8 weeks at his breeder's house really set him up to have a great social personality and temperment.
  
  He is the star right now at his 2nd set of group obedience classes. His nature is so calm and patient. He loves going to classes and maintains his focus on me. We are also starting a tracking/hunting seminar next month. I'll let you know how that goes.
  
  Koda does have somewhat of a stubborn streak. I learned that the first day I met him, and he wouldn't go back in the crate to drive home. Then he wanted to walk me on a leash after. He would throw his whole weight, all 7 pds....lol, into making me go his way. His stubbornness has never annoyed me, it's cute in a way and it was easy to overcome. When I give a command, he listens and that's it.
  
  As far as the other stuff that you may worry about with a puppy, i.e. chewing on things, potty accidents, jumping on people, mouthiness, etc. Koda will not do any of that stuff. He has had the run of the house while I'm at work since he was 10 weeks old and hasn't ruined or gotten into anything he shouldn't have.
  
  Positive training methods are the only way to go with Koda.
  
  Hope that helps!
• shishiinu

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Kind of curious, where is the tracking/hunting seminar goin to take place? Whats going to be tought?
• tjbart17

  January 2010 edited November -1

  It's a really basic tracking class for fun, not major hunting. What I have found with Koda is that he loves hiking. We go up in the hills and on Mt. Diablo and Tahoe, and to Koda hiking is one long tracking game. He can do it for hours. So, I'd like to learn more about making our hikes into more "working" hikes together. I have a Dog University only one mile away from my home that sits on the base of Mt. Diablo. The class will start at the University, and move to Mt. Diablo.
  
  Here's the class description:
  Tracking for Fun - Your dog already knows how to follow scents using her nose. Tracking for Fun students will learn how to work and communicate with their dogs to follow simple tracks. The objective of this class is to introduce the dog to the foundation of tracking - learning to follow scent for positive reinforcement. Dogs will learn to track a straight line and add corners. Handlers will learn tracking theory - including scent pads, the effect of weather conditions, wind, and different terrain.
• BradA1878

  January 2010 edited November -1

  My experience with training my 2 Kai is to keep it fun and not repetitious - ours have short attention spans. Also, always keep it positive! Never use that cesar crap on a Kai, they are "handler soft".
• shishiinu

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Amen to that Brad. Same with Kishus, its all about play time for Taro when we go out training/hunting. Make it fun and take lots of treats.
• MirkoAi

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Thanks for everyones input! My feelings have settled a little bit more now. I have been reading "It's me or the dog" and i'd like to get her dvd's prior to getting a puppy so that I have a basic knowledge before jumping in to deep over my head. I like being prepared, its easier to keep my head from exploding with too many things at once.
  
  As far as the positive reinforcement training, I totally agree! I worked with you children for a couple years and have taken psychology classes and positive reinforcement was always taught. I never watched Ceasar's show, something about him bothered me so I never got into it. But Victoria Stillwell I absolutely adore!! I try to watch the show as much as possible. The hard part is I get what she's saying while the show is on but actually being able to apply it to a real life situation makes me nervous because you know it never goes the why you want it to. So then when you run into a question or problem you can't ask Victoria through the tv. I'd try but my husband would probably have me committed and then I'd never get a puppy!
  
  I'm so happy to hear that Kai Ken's like hiking and being outdoors. I wouldn't call my self a "hiker" but more or a woods lover. I love taking walks through the woods and just enjoy the fresh air and quiet time. I'm an amateur photographer so I love going places to take pictures. I would love to have my dog by my side while i do this. I want to be able to take my dog everywhere with me when I go out. My husband and I do not want children so the Kai Ken would be our baby!
  
  P.S. i love coming on here and seeing everyone's babies grow but I dislike all of you at the same time! Its such torture, I'm soo jealous!
• Sangmort

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  P.S. i love coming on here and seeing everyone's babies grow but I dislike all of you at the same time! Its such torture, I'm soo jealous!
  
  So true!!! T_T
  
  & I'll tell you, the wait only gets harder ~
• tim

  February 2010 edited November -1

  My experience with our Kai is that it MUST be on her terms. Fun, positive and not overly repetitious are the key.
  
  Unlike most dogs, the Kai doesn't live to please - they're too independent to play silly games. It's on THEIR terms, and they will only be "taught" by the pack leader. Once well conditioned, they'll respond to others (my kids can get our Kai to sit, stay, shake, etc., albeit grudgingly).
  
  I find our pup to be very smart, keenly observant and always aware of what's going on. But she loves to play the "I don't care" game. Even food isn't a sure thing for her as far as incentive. It's on her terms or won't happen most of the time.
  
  Honestly, I find Kai puppies maddening to train... but as they age & mellow a tad (after 12-16 months), they are among the finest dogs I've known. Just take strong, firm instruction (but that's always positive), and you absolutely must be the Alpha to get them to even think about doing anything at first...
• tjbart17

  February 2010 edited November -1

  lol. So, I brought this thread up again and I need to retract my Koda statement. ha ha ha ha. Last week the trainer tried grabbing Koda's leash from me and he now hates her. I had never had anyone grab Koda's leash from me that he didn't know. Well, he freaked out on her and got all ferrill acting. Now, he hates her and wouldn't work in class. I stayed calm to try and keep him calm, but the more calm I was the more he looked at me like I am crazy for not being on alert. After the class, I was telling Koda in the car that he just wasn't acting great and he had a lot to say back to me the whole way home he talked back.
  
  We will try it again this week, but I'm with Tim if it's not on their terms forget about it!
• shibamistress

  February 2010 edited November -1

  I don't have any experience with a Kai, but I do have Shibas, and I absolutely get the "it has to be on their terms" thing. Before I got the Shibas, I had a GSD who of course was very easy to train. When I got my first Shiba, I couldn't believe how difficult he was. Sure, he learned to sit for food, and lay down, but in the puppy class he'd do it like twice, perfectly, then look at me like "you've got to be kidding? You want me to do this again? I don't think so." And off he'd go to harass another dog (the only dogs he got along with were twice his size and rough players, like pits and rotties). I was frustrated, for awhile, because I just could not get him to calm down, and finally, I gave up on the kind of obedience work I'd done with my GSD. He learned basic manners (for a shiba anyway) and I didn't try anything else.
  
  The thing is, two years made all the difference. As he matured, he really became more interested in being with me, trying to figure out what I wanted, etc. He always did basic things for food, but now (finally) he's just eager to please and interested in learning and trying new things. So while I know it's kind of a cop out, I do have to say that for me, the puppy class was good for socialization but I just could not expect much from him until he was older. When I got him though, and he was such a little terror--truly like a feral dog--I met some people who had Shibas who said, don't worry, it will get easier, and I didn't really believe them....But it's true!
• baanton

  February 2010 edited November -1

  Our Josephine (presumed Kai) seems to be very eager to please us all the time, but I have to say that has gotten much much better as she has matured into a fully adult dog. She definitely was a bit difficult and strong-headed as a pup, and that will come out on occasion (usually when she doesn't want to end the walk as soon as we do). She on the whole has more spirit, but also has been much easier to train than our former dog, who had Rott/Lab/Husky and possibly German Shepherd in him. For one, she has been very responsive from a much earlier age. While she likes to talk back sometimes (Tara -- loved your description of your recent car ride with Koda -- seems like par for the course with a Kai), we have all learned to handle the scoldings we still get occasionally from her. In sum, based on two doggies we've owned and observing others with delightfully behaving dogs or struggling with their dogs I believe that positive reinforcement and a forgiving attitude, consistency, and patience are the key ingredients for training a doggy, regardless of breed. And keep bringing them in contact with all kinds of people and doggies --- ongoing socialization helps a lot too. And finally just waiting for them to get older usually solves all the rest of it!
• MirkoAi

  February 2010 edited November -1

  Thank You everyone for posting your experiences and advice; it definitely makes me feel at ease a little bit more hearing everyones side of the story. Like always can't wait to have one of my own!!!!!
• asia

  March 2010 edited November -1

  Sorry, a little off topic, but - Tara - I am so jealous! That class sounds like so much fun!!