Kai Pups (pics added 3/14)

TheWalrusTheWalrus
edited March 2010 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
Anyone reading my blog probably has already seen this. We've got a couple temporary Kai pups staying at our house at the moment. They're 2 month old kuro-tora males. I say Kai pups are cutest NK pups out there. If I had my way, I'd be keeping both of these boys.



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Comments

  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    Cuteness to the extreme!
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    edited November -1
    they are soooo cute.
  • AkiraleShibaAkiraleShiba
    edited November -1
    I seen it on your blog, they are so adorable :)
  • white_bearwhite_bear
    edited November -1
    This must be kai-drooling weekend, after brad's pics LOL They are incredibly sweet!
  • akurei_ryokoakurei_ryoko
    edited November -1
    SO cute!! Makes me want one right now lol
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Cute!
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    It wouldn't let me play it :(... though I agree with your sentiments!
  • sukoshi_momsukoshi_mom
    edited November -1
    Very cute! Little bouncing fuzzy boys.

    (I like the music w/ the video too)
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    edited November -1
    I'm dying from the cuteness!!!!! I love Kai pups. It's hard to believe that Koda was that small less than a year ago.
  • xremiixremii
    edited November -1
    Adorable!! I don't even know how you can give them back!
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    edited November -1
    MONSTERS! :-D
  • shishiinushishiinu
    edited November -1
    Not to jack this thread but Shigeru san, do you know of a web site or breeder info that has hunting Kai kens? I always wondered about it and I figure you would know if there were any out there.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    I know both of these kennels, though the Genyukai is more of association of kennels that plan their breedings together and have show/hunting lines. Though the 'type' in the Genyukai hunting lines is not quite in my taste, I've heard good things about their dogs. I haven't seen Tenroukensha's dogs hunt, but I've seen them in the ring. A lot of nice brindling, and I respect that he hunts with his show dogs. I know of other hunters that run Kai, but they're older fellows who don't believe in the internets.

    http://tenroukensya.hp.infoseek.co.jp/index.html

    http://kaiken.biz/

    From everything I've heard and seen over the years about hunting with Kai, real hunting lines are hard to come by nowadays, and the Kai is getting a bad rep as far as hunting (big game, there are still plenty of good bird dogs) goes. I think it's mostly likely going to take around 20 years, but I'm determined to put together a line of large game hunting Kai (for boar mostly). It's a rather ambitious goal, and I guess in 20 years we'll see how successful I am. Will definitely need a lot of help to make it happen.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    edited November -1
    wow good info Shigeru san! Hey I'm here to help, maybe I will eventually get a Kai.
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    I'm still waiting for my male Kai Ken Shigeru (lol)! =p


    That's an awesome goal and not at all so farfetched...20 years may seem like a long time but it will come very quickly! Let us take things slow but eventually we will ALL become "old timers" of Nihon Ken in our selected breed or breeds, LOL.


    Just remember...this how all great breeders start out...with an idea and an ambition! And the motivation, work and time to follow suit with it =).
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    edited November -1
    Wow, some really gorgeous akatoras :) on those sites...thanks for the links, Shigeru!
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    edited November -1
    Sweet links! On that second website, the kai look so small at that show. What is the average size in Japan? Koda is 50 pds, and thin. May May is coming and is only 30 pds. That's a huge difference when you talk about percentage wise. Is there a "normal" weight for a Kai female/male?
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    I'm thread jacking my own thread to rant about standards.

    Everywhere you look you'll find a different standard for the Kai.

    FCI www.fci.be/uploaded_files/318gb99_en.doc
    UKC http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/KaiRevisedJuly12008
    JKC http://www.jkc.or.jp/modules/worlddogs/entry.php?entryID=93&categoryID=5
    Nippo http://www.nihonken-hozonkai.or.jp/page007.html
    Aigokai http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/kaiken/kaiken_standard.html

    FCI:
    -Size: Dogs 53cm (20.9 inches) Bitches 48cm (18.9 inches) with a tolerance of +/-3cm (1.2 inches)
    -Weight: Couldn't find a specified weight

    UKC:
    -Size: Dogs 18½ to 22 inches (47.5-55.9cm) Bitches 17½ to 20 inches (44.5-50.8cm) with a tolerance of +/-half and inch (1.3cm)
    -Weight: 25 to 55 pounds (11.3-24.9kg)

    JKC:
    -Size: Dogs 50cm (19.7 inches) Bitches 45cm (17.7 inches) with a tolerance of +/-3cm (1.2 inches)
    -Weight: Couldn't find a specified weight

    Nippo:
    -Size: Dogs 52cm (20.5 inches) Bitches 49cm (19.3 inches) with a tolerance of +/-3cm (1.2 inches)
    -Weight: Dogs 17-23kg (37.4-50.7 pounds) Bitches 15-18kg (33-39.6 pounds)

    Aigokai:
    -Size: 40-50cm
    -Weight: 11.25-22.5kg (24.8-49.6 pounds) (the decimal points are due to the fact that the weight measurements are old Japanese measurements, 3 'kan'- 6'kan' is the standard)



    While I understand why the Nippo and Aigokai standards are different, I'm scratching my head as to where the FCI/UKC/JKC are getting their standards from.

    The Nippo and Aigokai standards differ because when Nippo was founded, the Aigokai members joined. However when Nippo drew up the standards separating all the Japanese breeds into small/medium/large, the Aigokai members had issues with the cookie cutter standard. The Kai at the time came in a wide range of sizes, and the Aigokai members felt strongly about preserving the Kai as it was. As the standard was written the Kai was too small for the medium category, and too large for the small category. Nippo also deducts points for tongue spots larger than a pinkie (though they recently changed this in regards to Kai).

    The Aigokai standard has the Kai at 40-50cm. Nippo has dogs at 49-55 and bitches at 46-52cm. Generally any Kai you see at a Nippo or JKC show are larger than Aigokai standards allow. The average weight of the Kai I see is females around 12-15kg (26-33lb) and males at 19-22kg (42-49lb).

    I was completely bewildered by the FCI standard, as I thought they take their standard from the breed's country of origin. Shouldn't the standard conform to either JKC/Nippo/Aigokai? Then I glanced at their Kishu standard, and they have the Kishu sized smaller than than the Kai at dogs 52cm bitches 46cm. The 52cm for males is right on the Nippo standard, but the Nippo standard has females at 49cm. Arrrrgh headaches. I know it's nigh unto impossible to get all these organizations to adopt a common standard, but I think it's really strange that there's such a difference in numbers between organizations. This needs to be fixed. While I don't see Nippo and Aigokai seeing eye to eye on size for the foreseeable future, at least the JKC/FCI/UKC should get their numbers straight.
  • baantonbaanton
    edited November -1
    Shigeru--- thanks for sharing the video of the pups... Cuties!!! It will be hard for you to send them on their way, I'm certain of that!
  • shishiinushishiinu
    edited November -1
    Thats really interesting on the differences in standards. Most of the Kai's I have seen are usually smaller then the Kishu and just from my own personal experience, the Hokkaido seems a bit smaller then most of the "medium" breeds but generally similar in size to the Kai.

    I just wish there were more hunting line Kai's in Japan. Its just sad to see most of the original hunting nihon ken diverting further away from their original intended use. I'm sure 10 to 20 years from now most there will be far less hunting nihon ken's out there. I hope a few of us can continue a small percentage of hunting line nihon ken's here in the U.S. and in Japan and preserve the breed for the next generation.
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    edited November -1
    See this is why I get so confused! Onto my next question....to breed good hunting dogs for boar what size do you think you would need?
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    Yup! That was "the problem" with Kai Ken...the inconsistency in type and size...when I first discovered/was introduced to Kai Ken in Nagano, Japan during the year of 2006.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    edited November -1
    tj:

    I know size does play a good role in building a good pig dog but its not the most important. as a matter of fact, as shigeru said before, alot of the Japanese pig hunter prefer the smaller sized NK for hunting pigs because of endurance and being better fit for the dense vegetation of the mountains. Just as a example there are people who use 20lb Jaged terriers and patterdale terriers to hunt boars. The dogs are used as bay dogs and strike dogs but I have seen a jaged terrier hanging off of a 200lb boar's ears while the pig ran 100 yards with the dog flapping in the wind.

    I read a old Japanese "medium" sized NK book and it stated that the old Kyoto boar hunters prefered shiba size dogs for hunting and some actually used shiba ken for hunting pigs. Its all in the dogs ability.
  • aykayk
    edited March 2010
    For size of a boar hunting dog, would it not depend on what hunting style you want to cultivate?

    There are a handful of hog hunters in the U.S. that use ~20 lb jagdterriers for baying hogs so size is less of an issue than ability, instinct, heart, etc.

    For catch work, size would be an issue as well as ability, instinct, heart, grit, etc.


    edit: oops. posted before reading shishiinu's post.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    Yup, size is not that much of an issue. A friend of mine who's a hunting vet told me about a test they did to figure out the best hunting weight over here. Apparently the optimal size is around the 20kg mark. Over 25kg and the dogs tended to over heat/lose stamina. There were reasons against running dogs smaller than 12kg, but I don't remember what they were.

    Main thing is to have a dog that wants to hunt, and is healthy and has the ability to work. The rest is gravy.
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    edited November -1
    Very interesting! So about 45 pds. and not over is the optimal size.

    Sorry to totally jack your thread. Thanks for entertaining my questions.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    Haha I just realized I jacked my own thread. Awesome.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    Took the boys to the hardware store yesterday and today. Working on socializing them as much as possible.

    PAP_0053

    PAP_0052
  • the_november_rainthe_november_rain
    edited November -1
    haha, They are cute!
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    edited November -1
    That's great!

    I guess hardware stores are good for socialization. I spent a few hours at the home depot yesterday designing and buying supplies for a project I was working on and a couple brought in their pointer puppy with them. I LOVED her. And, they had a gorgeous leather leash for her. I was one jealous guy. :-)
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