I don't have any experience with kai, although you may want to specify what you mean by "guard dog." Generally speaking, people say "guard dog" when they mean "watch dog." A watch dog will bark at intruders, whereas a guard dog will actively defend person and property, and are therefore a huge liability.
I think Heidi used the word property to mean "physical space", not "personal possessions".
A lot of the terminology you are using here has a very specific meaning in the dog world. Let's try to clarify.
For example, a dog trained in "protection" work will actively engage a perceived threat to their owner or handler. These dogs will chase, snarl, body slam, and even bite. When you think of a "protection dog", think of a trained police K9. A "guard dog" can be many things, but is typically a term used to mean a dog that will patrol and ward off a perceived threat to property (meaning physical space). Guard dogs are likely to put on a big display with lots of barking and snarling, but tend to avoid actively engaging a threat and much prefer not to bite. They will hold their ground and not run away though.
The NK, by nature, are neither of those things. The typical NK temperament makes them a decent "watch dog," not "protection dog" or "guard dog." The Kai, as I understand it, is likely to alert you to the presence of a perceived threat by barking or whining, but isn't going to engage or attempt to ward off that threat.
I know that we went through this recently in a thread. I have had Rott's and Kai's in my adult life, although Kai's only for one year. I can tell you the differences I see in the two. Maybe Brad could also chime in with his experience with his Cane Corso and Kai's.
My Rott would decide that people were not able to come near me...he wasn't so much guardy with property (unless I was on it). If he decided that someone wasn't to come near me oooohhhh man was there a show. He would not only bark, but use his whole body as a threat. He would not back down if the person came closer and would puff his chest more to show him that he was not to be messed with. He never bit anyone, but his body wouldn't budge. He would never back down to anyone and that was usually enough to send people running. (BTW this is something that we spent most of his early years trying to tone down. I'm not sure if you want a dog like this for everyday living.)
My Kai will bark and alert. He will become anxious and move from side to side. His ears will go down to the side, but all in all he looks nervous when he starts guarding. It scares people because he looks very fearful and unpredictable. People will definitely step back and not try and walk by. People he guards against are unpredictable as well. 1 in 100 people he will just hate for no apparent reason or pattern that I can conceive of. I don't think that he would ever bite anyone though, and I think that if they did come closer, he would end up totally backing down in fear.
I think my Rott felt the need to protect me whereas my Kai just gets totally wierded out by people. I don't think that his guarding is necessarily aimed at me in any way. They would make terrible protection dogs. My Kai however is pretty good at protecting the house. He doesn't want anyone outside or coming in that he does not approve of. I think this is because to him his home is his sanctuary. But again, it's fear driven, and I'm not sure that he wouldn't completely back down.
Haru is the best watchdog I've had so far. Definitely not going to stop an intruder, but she alerts me whenever somethings amiss around the house. Anytime someone comes into the property she'll let out a few warning barks. Once they call her name (and she knows them) she stops. Otherwise she won't stop till I tell her to. Just sort of naturally ended up that way.
A dog raised lovingly and compassionately would most likely protect their owner. Because it would have a sense of loyalty. A dog raised harshly and with punitive and aversive methods may not.
I know chihuahuas that would try to kill someone who got to close to their owner.
for instance...
The black one on the right (Tamale, my old bosses dog, that only I could hold without getting bitten) comes to mind. 4 teeth and she new how to use them.
And I know pit bulls and GSDs who would run and hide behind you. I cannot tell you how many times I had to protect her from my neighbors cocker spaniel.
You have to earn a dogs loyalty. If you do that, what ever dog you have will be your best and most loyal friend; but not necessarily your guardian.
Thing is, if you want a dog that will engage in high stress times, you need to be a very adept owner, who can train the dog thoroughly enough for it to discern when it is appropriate. If you don't go to great lengths to insure that you run the risk of friends and family members getting hurt. If you want a dog that is safe and reliable around all guests, you need to socialize that dog quite well, and that could make the dog a lousy "guard", but a delightful family member.
That said, dogs are quite clever and intuitive. If you and your dog are bonded well, they can often sense when you are not safe. Before I bought my house, my husband and I lived in a beautiful apartment in a VERY bad neighborhood. At the time I had a shiba inu (Moto) and a pit bull (Piglet, the one pictured above). While both dogs were very friendly, their presence alone often deterred less than savory people from approaching me on walks. But there were times when some junky would want to pet my dogs. My pups would get quite close to me, and look to me for guidance (as it should be). I would tell the individual that my dogs didn't want to meet them. One or two still persisted, and my shiba would be the first to growl. Never got farther than that. Most people know they don't want to get bitten.
You can speculate about what might happen endlessly. You can plan and plan and plan, and still end up with something you weren't expecting. You will meet many people on this forum who got dogs for hunting that really were just aspiring couch potatoes. And people who wanted a mellow family pet, and got a new running parter, thusly needing to take up running. Good breeders and rescue groups work really hard to match the right dog with the right owner. But dogs are like people in as much as they are individuals who can make their own decisions, including whether you are worthy of their protection...
@Marc - I was under the impression you wanted a "watchful" dog breed, that is why I suggested a Kai Ken or Kishu Ken (a Jindo is a great choice too, IMHO). For the sake of clarity, I know that some Kai Ken and Kishu Ken have stepped-up to protect their family by engaging a threat, but I dunno that you can assume any Kai Ken or Kishu Ken would engage a threat - but from my personal experience with Kai Ken they will mos def make a GREAT watchdog - at a surprisingly young age too. Tai, our 4 month old import - just got here last week - he's already out there guarding the yard with Kona, Mochi, Ahi, and the guardians.
I can tell you from first hand experience that the Kishu makes a excellent watch dog. I dont think they make much in terms of creating a protection dog but hey you never know. The Jindo is still currently used in the S. Korean military as a war dog but I dont know too much about them.
When Riki was about 3 years old, he stopped a dirtbag from breaking into my neighbors house by jumping the fence and chasing the idiot down the street into a vehicle. One of my friends decided to come into my yard one day without prior notice and Riki almost attacked him.
Taro is very watchful of his surroundings and when some one he does'nt know shows up he will go nuts and bark profusely.
I learned this weekend that my female Kai would be a good home guard dog. Unfortunately, the man delivering my kitchen cabinets did too. She didn't bite, but I think she would have. I now know to crate her when any strange man is coming into the home or do proper introductions. Also, no female dogs can come into my home either. Learned that the hard way on Saturday. *sigh*
There's a bit of a range in the Jindo. Most would bark on minimum on their own territory if there is an unescorted stranger. Even some shy ones may bark, circle, and then try to bite from behind. The more confident ones would bark, growl, and go heads on towards an intruder to bite. I don't know how much pressure it would take to make those back off like in the videos Brad shared under the Dutch Shepherd topic though.
What I like about in some good Jindos is their memory and judgment. For example, I once visited a place out in a shady part of town where a Jindo had been re-homed. I had met the dog twice at a different home with a different owner. I entered a gate and he came up barking but not attacking. Though he recognized me and was wagging his tail, he kept on barking to keep me in place. When I extended a hand, he refused to approach and be tempted. Once his new owner hurried up and said "friend, friend", the dog then approached and greeted me like an old friend.
I don't have any expectations that a 40 lb dog like a Jindo would be a man-stopper if that person is drugged, intoxicated, or just plain insane. The rule of thumb of even a trained dog is that they can only take down a person within 3 times its weight. Maybe two dogs though...
i guess you can never tell what any dog will do until the situation actually happens. The beagle i used to have didnt really care for stragers but one day our neighbor from down the street walked his chow chow down to show it to us, Blue was sitting on the porch staring a hole through the chow, his chest was all puffed out an he was growling, until then i had no idea beagles were territorial if i hadnt been out side with him he would have attacked the chow.........i see now the key is to earn the dogs respect
Comments
A lot of the terminology you are using here has a very specific meaning in the dog world. Let's try to clarify.
For example, a dog trained in "protection" work will actively engage a perceived threat to their owner or handler. These dogs will chase, snarl, body slam, and even bite. When you think of a "protection dog", think of a trained police K9. A "guard dog" can be many things, but is typically a term used to mean a dog that will patrol and ward off a perceived threat to property (meaning physical space). Guard dogs are likely to put on a big display with lots of barking and snarling, but tend to avoid actively engaging a threat and much prefer not to bite. They will hold their ground and not run away though.
The NK, by nature, are neither of those things. The typical NK temperament makes them a decent "watch dog," not "protection dog" or "guard dog." The Kai, as I understand it, is likely to alert you to the presence of a perceived threat by barking or whining, but isn't going to engage or attempt to ward off that threat.
Does that answer your question?
My Rott would decide that people were not able to come near me...he wasn't so much guardy with property (unless I was on it). If he decided that someone wasn't to come near me oooohhhh man was there a show. He would not only bark, but use his whole body as a threat. He would not back down if the person came closer and would puff his chest more to show him that he was not to be messed with. He never bit anyone, but his body wouldn't budge. He would never back down to anyone and that was usually enough to send people running. (BTW this is something that we spent most of his early years trying to tone down. I'm not sure if you want a dog like this for everyday living.)
My Kai will bark and alert. He will become anxious and move from side to side. His ears will go down to the side, but all in all he looks nervous when he starts guarding. It scares people because he looks very fearful and unpredictable. People will definitely step back and not try and walk by. People he guards against are unpredictable as well. 1 in 100 people he will just hate for no apparent reason or pattern that I can conceive of. I don't think that he would ever bite anyone though, and I think that if they did come closer, he would end up totally backing down in fear.
I think my Rott felt the need to protect me whereas my Kai just gets totally wierded out by people. I don't think that his guarding is necessarily aimed at me in any way. They would make terrible protection dogs. My Kai however is pretty good at protecting the house. He doesn't want anyone outside or coming in that he does not approve of. I think this is because to him his home is his sanctuary. But again, it's fear driven, and I'm not sure that he wouldn't completely back down.
Does that all make sense?
A dog raised lovingly and compassionately would most likely protect their owner. Because it would have a sense of loyalty. A dog raised harshly and with punitive and aversive methods may not.
I know chihuahuas that would try to kill someone who got to close to their owner.
for instance...
The black one on the right (Tamale, my old bosses dog, that only I could hold without getting bitten) comes to mind. 4 teeth and she new how to use them.
And I know pit bulls and GSDs who would run and hide behind you.
I cannot tell you how many times I had to protect her from my neighbors cocker spaniel.
You have to earn a dogs loyalty. If you do that, what ever dog you have will be your best and most loyal friend; but not necessarily your guardian.
Thing is, if you want a dog that will engage in high stress times, you need to be a very adept owner, who can train the dog thoroughly enough for it to discern when it is appropriate. If you don't go to great lengths to insure that you run the risk of friends and family members getting hurt. If you want a dog that is safe and reliable around all guests, you need to socialize that dog quite well, and that could make the dog a lousy "guard", but a delightful family member.
That said, dogs are quite clever and intuitive. If you and your dog are bonded well, they can often sense when you are not safe. Before I bought my house, my husband and I lived in a beautiful apartment in a VERY bad neighborhood. At the time I had a shiba inu (Moto) and a pit bull (Piglet, the one pictured above). While both dogs were very friendly, their presence alone often deterred less than savory people from approaching me on walks. But there were times when some junky would want to pet my dogs. My pups would get quite close to me, and look to me for guidance (as it should be). I would tell the individual that my dogs didn't want to meet them. One or two still persisted, and my shiba would be the first to growl. Never got farther than that. Most people know they don't want to get bitten.
You can speculate about what might happen endlessly. You can plan and plan and plan, and still end up with something you weren't expecting. You will meet many people on this forum who got dogs for hunting that really were just aspiring couch potatoes. And people who wanted a mellow family pet, and got a new running parter, thusly needing to take up running. Good breeders and rescue groups work really hard to match the right dog with the right owner. But dogs are like people in as much as they are individuals who can make their own decisions, including whether you are worthy of their protection...
----
When Riki was about 3 years old, he stopped a dirtbag from breaking into my neighbors house by jumping the fence and chasing the idiot down the street into a vehicle. One of my friends decided to come into my yard one day without prior notice and Riki almost attacked him.
Taro is very watchful of his surroundings and when some one he does'nt know shows up he will go nuts and bark profusely.
What I like about in some good Jindos is their memory and judgment. For example, I once visited a place out in a shady part of town where a Jindo had been re-homed. I had met the dog twice at a different home with a different owner. I entered a gate and he came up barking but not attacking. Though he recognized me and was wagging his tail, he kept on barking to keep me in place. When I extended a hand, he refused to approach and be tempted. Once his new owner hurried up and said "friend, friend", the dog then approached and greeted me like an old friend.
I don't have any expectations that a 40 lb dog like a Jindo would be a man-stopper if that person is drugged, intoxicated, or just plain insane. The rule of thumb of even a trained dog is that they can only take down a person within 3 times its weight. Maybe two dogs though...