The Neapolitan Mastiff: Love'em or Hate'em?

edited April 2010 in Other Breeds
I dunno why, but the past few months I have been mildly obsessed with Neos. Just looking at them and reading about them.

It started while I was doing some research on Blue's ancestry, you know the breeds (CC and Neos) were basically the same. The base gene pool was the same but they bred some dogs for general farm work (the CC) and others for strict guardian, man-stopper, and war roles (the Neo).

The Neo was used for all the "dirty work", fighting/killing man and beast, protecting property and family - like junkyard dogs. To me they are a very "dark" breed, and I actually find them to be rather ugly. I think I like about 1% of the neos I see, but the ones I like I really like. I think the "darkness" of the breed and the repulsiveness I feel toward the look (and drool) is what kinda draws me to them.

Blue is very loving and really soft, his skin makes him very cuddly. JJ was like velvet, her coat was perfect... So when I see a Neo I kinda think about how snugly they would be too. LOL

Here is a Neo I like the look of:
http://www.undergroundmastino.com/e107_plugins/coppermine_menu/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSC01450.jpg

Here's a few females, you can see them move...




So, what do you guys think? Do you love them or hate them?

Just wondering, thought it may make a good discussion. :o)

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Comments

  • edited April 2010
    I see a dog who will produce 50x the amount of drool Blue does...LOL

    I'd rather have a CC :p

    ETA: Kind of looks like someone took a CC & bred it to an Elephant. haha~
  • edited November -1
    Brad I am with you. I dislike most of the neo's I see. But the ones I like, I love (like the one I told you about was beautiful).

    Mastiffs in general have dark histories, they were man killers, war dogs, bred to take down huge opponents. And yet every single mastiff I have ever met has been a gummy bear.

    I really like the neo's they use in the Harry Potter movies...
  • edited April 2010
    There's a Neo in the HP movies?

    ETA: nvm...it's Fang huh? I never knew what he was. ~
  • edited November -1
    Personally, I don't care much for all that skin on the face, almost looks like they are melting.

    What I don't understand is the use of all that skin when it comes to their job, I can see that as getting in the way and easy to snag on sharp objects (such as an attacker's knife).
  • edited November -1
    As I have been told the point of the skin is even if the opponent has a good chunk of you in his mouth (if you were a neo) you can still turn around and defend yourself.
  • edited November -1
    I love how in the video they keep resting in the middle of rough housing. That video is a riot.

    Jay and I agree, we don't want to, but we love them.
  • edited November -1
    I have always thought they looked cuddly... Though I could not deal with the drool unfortunately.
  • edited November -1
    Thats a whole lot of skin! They do look ugly but I bet the pups look adorable.
  • edited November -1
    Personally I think the dog in the top pic looks like a warrior, but I'm glad it's a pic cause I hate watching Neo's move. And drool really doesn't appeal to me.
  • edited November -1
    I have a friend who started with English Mastiffs, then decided to begin a breeding program with Neo Mastiffs instead (she's only in the very early stages, only has a foundation bitch so far)....and my friend is great, but you know, I just don't get the Neo love. Her other mastiff--well, he's goofy, sweet, soft--and loves me, and he rolls over for my male Shiba, but I just can't quite return the feeling. Now she's got a Neo too.

    I'm afraid I just can't see the appeal. And the drool! I can't deal with it! They are on my list of dogs I'd never own.
  • edited April 2010
    Oh yea, Neo puppies are SUPER CUTE...

    http://images02.olx.in/ui/1/33/39/13682439_1.jpg

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    Jess has it right, the loose skin helps in fights, but the loose skin also causes issues in protection work as many of them bite through their lips when they take a bite. :o(

    The Neos of old were not as wrinkly, the show ring has really made them hyper-type, but the old-world Neos did have loose skin too...

    http://www.molossoitaliano.it/Corso/canistorici/mastino_napoletano_Astra_GrottaAzzurraGiorgioMira1976.jpg

    http://www.molossoitaliano.it/Corso/canistorici/mastino_napoletano_Astra_GrottaAzzurraGiorgioMiralt1976.jpg

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    Here is their close Asian cousin, the Korean Dosa (also bred for fighting)...

    http://www.masterdomainkennels.com/ghgh.jpg

    Did you think there could be an even uglier dog than the Neo? LOL

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  • edited November -1
    WOW that's a lot of skin
  • edited November -1
    Ahhh the Napulitano Mastino! Well, I'm Napulitan too so I think I have to like them. I also like CC's because of their tie to my country and my city. I will have to agree that the Mastino you see today in the AKC shows is really really wrinkly like that one in the top pic and you don't really see them like that at home not so much like that. They are also used as flock guardians on Mt. Vesuvio for the buffalo and to make sure no one robs you. Napoli is a little crazy like that.

    These dogs have been used in war for many centuries and helped guard the entrances to the caves underneath Vesuvio and Pompeii where my grandmother hid from the Nazis. They are our protectors and warriors.
  • edited November -1
    That Dosa looks like a cross between the Neo and a Tosa.......thats probably why they named it Dosa.
  • edited November -1
    Ah, I am with Beth, it looks like they are melting :-). And the drool.

    And yes, the Dosa is uglier, hard to believe!
  • edited November -1
    The top picture is amazing. He looks so regal and dangerous.

    However, I am NOT a fan of the loose skin and DEFINITELY not a fan of the drool.

    But, the history of this breed is pretty interesting. And while I would never own one, I definitely would like to learn more about them.

    And OMG... That Dosa... YIKES! I want to iron him.
  • aykayk
    edited April 2010
    I used to have a webpage explaining the Dosa. [BTW, several pics were lifted from that webpage and placed on others without any cite.] I'll just bullet the main topics though.

    -name: In Korean language, dosa is the same as tosa. Same Korean characters. The difference in English spelling is due to how Westerners Romanize the name from Korean to English vs. Japanese to English. For example, some Koreans, without knowing English formal names would spell out "Akida" instead of "Akita", but of course, the Japanese version has precedent.

    -the dogs: Koreans differentiate the fighting d/tosa from the "beauty" d/tosa not by the name (because they're the same word), but by an adjective. Tookyun d/tosa is the fighting version. MeeKyun d/tosa is the above "pretty" version. You'll see both in Korea. I've seen pics of a wrinkly, red tosa, similar to the meekyun version, in pictures from Japan. So focusing on name (ie. dosa= Korean origin; tosa= Japanese origin) is misleading.

    -history: It's a bunch of BS. Neo origin is implasible to me. The newer Dogue de Bordeux (sp? French Mastiff) story is also implasible to me. Wrong color genes. The meekyun d/tosa is most likely from the Japanese fighting dog and just bred to extremes.

    -popularity in Korea: They're not that popular in Korea. Most Koreans aren't fans of big dogs. When people claim the Meekyun d/tosa is the most popular dog in Korea, that's just not right. Maybe among giant dogs, but not among all dogs.
  • edited April 2010
    Any dog that has been bred to exaggerate physical characteristics which impair their health or ability to do perform natural dog behaviors (like biting without injuring themselves) kind of bugs me, but hate would be a bit strong, maybe mild disapproval would be closer. Even pugs have the same doggy spirits as any other dog and are rather cute (and mostly pretty nice dogs) if you ignore, for a moment, the crippling deformities that people have bred into them. Neopolitans aren't quite as messed up as that, but the current breed still seems like something that should never have existed in the first place. That being said, on pure looks they can be kinda majestic, even if they do somewhat resemble the DIck Tracy character Pruneface.
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for the info on the Dosa, Ann! I agree with you on the history, actually I would say that the history 99% of all dog breeds is rather implausible. Its still interesting/fun tho, and its neat to think that maybe there is blood from the Molossis or the Alaunt way back there in these dogs somewhere. *maybe* :o)

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  • edited November -1
    mm...too distorted for me. I would not want to sit next to a hot neo in July, or worry about cleaning/drying all those wrinkles, or looking for ticks hiding in there.

    That's a lot of lip on that dog- laces and folds. The word "maw" comes to mind. I LOVE dog kisses, but I'm thinking no thanks.

    Like the CC much better. <3 Blue<3
  • edited November -1
    "...if you ignore, for a moment, the crippling deformities that people have bred into them. Neopolitans aren't quite as messed up as that, but the current breed still seems like something that should never have existed in the first place..."

    There are breeds that are WAY LESS hyper-type than the Neo with WAY MORE health issues than the Neo out there (look at the GSD). I'd also argue that 99% of all dog breeds wouldn't exist "in nature". There is really nothing "natural" about dog breeds, at this point they've been altered by man for 100s (and in some cases 1000s) of years.

    Many of the breeds I read/hear people touting as "more natural" or "less domesticated" are the same breeds that have been selected specifically to look like a wolf. At least in the case of a Neo their grossly exploited loose skin served a purpose at one time, obviously the loose skin has been taken to an extreme now, but at least its an exploit of a feature that had a working purpose.

    I used to feel the same way about Neos, but then I realized something...

    It seems contradictory to be uncomfortable with a breed like the Neo, and call it unnatural, but then feel totally comfortable showing enthusiasm over a breed like the Shikoku or Akita who have very clearly been selected to look a specific way for no other reason than the look. I've noticed this on other forums too. Really, do you think the Akita would exist "in nature"? ... or even a KBD - how many black & white wild canine do you see?

    Where I think is a non-hypocritical place to draw the line is the breeds that cannot whelp on their own, that, to me, IMHO, is crossing some line somewhere - but that may be totally hypocritical of me.

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  • edited November -1
    I like the Neo -I've only met 1 and it was a big marshmallow!
  • edited November -1
    ...There are breeds that are WAY LESS hyper-type than the Neo with WAY MORE health issues than the Neo ... I wasn't meaning to single out the Neo as some kind of notable crime against nature. I just meant if it is prone to accidentally biting itself, then someone went a little too far, not that Neos stand out as a particularly bad example. I mentioned pugs as tending towards the extreme end of things, which is why my feeling about the Neo's current state would register as mild disapproval at most. Perhaps I didn't express myself well.

    Any dog that can run and play and have fun (and breath, thermoregulate and whelp) without endangering itself, and is not notably prone to painful and debilitating genetic diseases is more or less OK with me, but you asked about liking or not liking the Neo so I mentioned what I found specifically unappealing about them.
  • edited April 2010
    Well, let me clarify too...

    I was not actually picking on your specific post, so I'm sorry if it came off that way (I'm very sleepy so maybe I am not writing very well today).

    I was really just remembering back to how I felt about Neos before my mild obsession, and how I felt that they were "unnatural"... Then I realized that it was somewhat contributory of me to call one man-made breed unnatural, when I should have really been seeing the whole picture - that all man-made breeds are unnatural. Perhaps I was projecting and thinking you were saying the same thing I had thought in the past.

    Anyway, I agree, when a dog starts biting through its own lips while preforming its main function... Then, yea, that's a FAIL. IMHO. I guess that is a great example of the collision of the show ring goals with those of a dog's working origin.

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  • edited November -1
    They're sort of neat, I guess, but no way would I want one! Way too much skin, way too big, way too slobbery.
  • edited November -1
    Totally agree with your take on "natural" and "unnatural" as regards to dog breeds, Brad. All breeds are to a degree unnatural, and I'm fine with that, but what I do have a problem with is exactly the same: dogs that can't breed or whelp on their own. Now that is unnatural in my mind. And yes, biting through lips would fall into that category too.

    On a side note, don't dogs with a lot of wrinkles have a lot of skin problems? I hadn't thought of ticks (*shudder*) because I don't have to deal with them that often here, but yes, that seems a problem in certain places too.
  • edited November -1
    Ok, I've gotta say it...they look like a freakin cartoon alien!
  • edited November -1
    I never met a Neo. I met some Bull Mastiffs at a dog show this past January. They were the coolest dogs. I'm with you Brad for some reason I think they are awesome
  • edited November -1
    I was under the impression that Tosa is a region of Japan? Is that right? Like how Kai, Hokkaido, Shikoku and Akita are places. I have heard of someone having a "Tosa accent". So IF that is/was true, and like other Japanese dogs the Tosa Inu is named for the region it is from, then that supports what Ann says about Korean D/Tosa being Tosa Inu bred to extremes. Do I get it?
  • aykayk
    edited April 2010
    Tosa is the older name for the Kochi area, the same area where the Shikoku Ken comes from. The Tosa dog is basically a Shikoku Ken blended with Western breeds to make it into a superior fighting dog. The Japanese hadn't like it when their native Japanese dogs were losing to newly arrived Western dogs in fights. So the Japanese fighting dog in that area evolved from a spitz to a mastiff.

    A lot of the histories on the Tosa Ken on the web makes it sound like the mixings were done with great deliberation, mixing to so-and-so at this particular year, and then the breed was set. That's not what I hear. Grandfathering was done through the Tosa Ken's history by individuals. It still happens to this day though not very often as it brought back dogs that are vocal during fights and are immediately disqualified.

    It may be that when the Tosa Ken arrived in Korea, the grandfathering continued in Japan but not Korea, or that different grandfatherings occured in the two countries, but the fighting dogs in Korea and Japan are still the same breed type. (I consider the fighting Tosa to be in the vein of a breed type and not a breed, similar to how Alaskan huskies are a breed type and not a breed.)

    As for the Tosa Ken that ended up in non-dog fighting hands, looks started to be emphasized. Tawny red color+moderate wrinkles in Japan and Europe, deep red color+excessive wrinkles in Korea.

    Check out this conformation Tosa Ken which is on the path of becoming like the neo. It's an easy path to slide down.
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