early spay/neutering and the effects
I've been mulling over this question since we had a discussion about the size of our Shibas on the Shiba forum, and for some reason I decided to come over here an ask it (probably because I tend to think of the discussions on the Shiba forum as more practical/experentially based and the ones here sometimes more theoretical).
What do you all think of early spaying/neutering? I've seen conflicting reports of whether this makes a dog larger or smaller (I believe the latter might be a myth?) I did a quick search and came across rather wildly varying reports, and also came across more "conventional wisdom" than I did actual scientific proof. Are there are well-documented studies that address size (or other issues) one way or the other, or is this still something that is in dispute?
I was initially most interested in the size issue, but actually am wondering about all issues related to this. I was told, repeatedly, to neuter Toby early, given his dominance and aggression even as a very very young pup, but after doing it (at 5 mos), I didn't notice much change in his behavior (his changes were age related--he became much, much calmer and more mellow after 3). And he is exceptionally large for a Shiba. So I wonder if I simply succumbed to conventional wisdom re: temperment?
anyway, I'd love to hear what people know about this subject....
What do you all think of early spaying/neutering? I've seen conflicting reports of whether this makes a dog larger or smaller (I believe the latter might be a myth?) I did a quick search and came across rather wildly varying reports, and also came across more "conventional wisdom" than I did actual scientific proof. Are there are well-documented studies that address size (or other issues) one way or the other, or is this still something that is in dispute?
I was initially most interested in the size issue, but actually am wondering about all issues related to this. I was told, repeatedly, to neuter Toby early, given his dominance and aggression even as a very very young pup, but after doing it (at 5 mos), I didn't notice much change in his behavior (his changes were age related--he became much, much calmer and more mellow after 3). And he is exceptionally large for a Shiba. So I wonder if I simply succumbed to conventional wisdom re: temperment?
anyway, I'd love to hear what people know about this subject....
Comments
How early do you consider too early? To some people 5-8 months is normal, while to others anything earlier than a year or two is too early. Some people (and shelters that get puppies) have their dogs spayed/neutered as early as 8 weeks, which to me is too early but to others just fine.
Personally, I'm comfortable with having it done at 6-7 months, and have grown up with the idea that if done later will lead to aggression issues (though since joining this forum I have learned that that is not the case).
From what I've seen, neutering of adult males can cause an abrupt decrease in metabolism. Unwary owners can find themselves with overweight dogs if they're not watchful. From intact dogs that show every single spine bone when females in heat are around to neutered dogs that have rolls of skin when they sit down. This drop in metabolism, activeness, or obsessiveness gives an edge to the owners when reforming bad behaviors.
On the other hand, in France, people don't neuter often their dogs and I've been surprised on how intact dog can interract pretty normally
This is what my vet had to say about the growth plates not being closed. Ann is totally correct that the belief is that when you neuter/spay (but I've heard this is more prevelant in boys than girls) before 1 year old that the growth plates will not close as soon as they should have.
I neutered Koda at 6 months. He is 21.5" tall and 54 pds. That's big for a Kai. I was told by a woman that it was because I neutered him too early. BS his father is the exact same size! Now he is only 11 months old. We will see if he grows any further. But from my vet records, it was predicted that Koda would be 55 pds. and 21-22" tall at full growth. Don't tell me how they did this, but I am assuming that it's similar to how doctors double a person's size between 2-3 years old to come up with their adult size.
Maymay was spayed at 5 months old even younger than Koda was, but she is only 34 pds. I don't know her exact lineage, but from what I have gotten her dam and sire were both around that size.
I'm sure none of that helps you. lololol
I think spaying/neutering is often done around 6 mos., so I guess I'd say anything a lot earlier than that would be early to me.
Toby was the only pup in the litter (of 3) that didn't seem to have any show possibilities; I suspect he was already looking like he was going to be large. Both his parents were champions, but his father was a Japanese import, and I believe they are allowed to be bigger than the AKC? (That might not be right, but is somehow in my mind as a possibility) so they were "normal" sized Shiba. He's almost as big as Kai! And though I'd been thinking he was fat at 41 pounds, he just blew his coat the poor boy is actually a little on the thin sized!
Anyway, I was rambling there, sorry!
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
Here is another journal article that discusses the benefits/detriment of altering:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665?cookieSet=1
I don't know if anyone else is interested, but thought I'd post them anyway. I know all the social benefits to early spay/neuter, esp. here in the US where there are simply too many unwanted animals, but what I really wanted to delve into was the actual medical effects of this, so these look like a good jumping off point for more research.
(And I can't believe I'm actually trying to sort through a bunch of vet journal articles....I used to not have a huge interest in science, but now, as it is related to dogs, I'm learning things about biology I never thought I'd read!)
Good info there...everything from closing boneplates to cancer.~
....well, my GSD was diagnosed with bone cancer yesterday. He was neutered at 4 months. Maybe he would have got it anyway. But that's not very comforting right now.
I don't know when I'll have a pup again, and need to make these choices, but I think I'll do a lot of reading before that point. And I'm thinking I'm going to go for later spaying/neutering and a more conservative vaccination schedule (ie. conservative in less frequent ones, but I will not go for the no vaccine path.)
It just breaks my heart to think that I may have contributed to hypothyroidism, and worse, possible bone cancer or other skeletal problems in my dogs because I listened to conventional wisdom.
Hearing all this is making me nervous. I had Toby neutered at 4 months of age, he is super sized. It is literally freaking me out to know that i've pretty much sent my boy on the wrong path and he'll probably end up paying for it in the long run. This really breaks my heart, as well.
I personally don't believe i'll be altering any of my pets in the future, unless it is for medical reasons. But, that is because I am a responsible person and after seeing Toby grow into a giant Shiba beast, i'm really truly afraid of doing that to another dog again.
I have learned my lesson.
For what it's worth.....More studies really need to be done. To hinge the final decision to spay/neuter on a limited findings is not valid in my opinion.
Having seen a lot of dogs come and go in the adoption realm and quite a few show dogs, I'd say that size is mostly genetic. Larger does not always mean poor quality, nor does a petite smaller dog indicate inferior animals in most cases. In humans and in many pets the average to smaller size individual usually has the greater longevity, all other diseases aside. Actually there is a law of averages in respiration where it no longer is optimal for oxygen processing once over size is reached. So when you get to Rotties on up to wolfhounds the life span reduces given the body has to work twice as hard to keep up with respiration. Like it or not it generally is the law of physiology.
Although it is fact that rotties and dobermans and quite a few of other breeds have a higher incident of osteosarcoma and other cancers which lead to mortality, one has to keep in mind correlation does not necessarily indicate causation in terms of spay and neuter. I don't see from what I have observed that spay or neuter after 7 months of age has as much influence on longevity as the few studies would like everyone to believe. If anything nutrition is a bigger factor in hormone and growth development. Undernourished pups often can have huge growth spurts as hormones try to balance out and catch up for lost time. This also occurs in children who suffer from low nutrition and then are placed on an overly nutrient rich diets before puberty.
I do think there must be time for ample bone development and hormone processes to occur since they work together as part of maturing, but I don't see that avoiding spaying and neutering altogether at a later age will change much in terms of growth potential or overall lifespan. In Shibas simply some lines have greater longevity.
Hopefully the mysteries, opinions and conjecture will be further refined and updated with further developed research on spay and neuter.
Snf
hey!
I *think* that's what dave said too...
----
We all have to make the best decisions we can for our pups. Our decisions are based on the knowledge we had at the time. I think there are too many contradictory studies on this particular issue to determine one is "right" over the other.
It's like how they say artificial sweetener leads to cancer in humans. Actually, come to think of it, there are a million things that "lead to cancer" in the human world, but when you look at it, it's all really a lot of speculation. Cancer, in general, has so many "unknowns" about it, it's hard to pinpoint a direct cause when it comes to living creatures.
Genetics are huge, & also too "unknown" to rule out.
We all need to make decisions based on what we think is right, based on what little knowledge we have, and do it. If 10 years down the line it ended up being a "mistake," then it was just that, a mistake made with the best of intentions for my dogs, not the worst.
We can't control everything in life. Whose to say bone cancer may have happened anyway? Or that the dog is genetically just a larger dog?
I know one guy who told me that a dog walking on slippery floors can get HD. Maybe he's right. But I think the dog isn't going to "magically" get HD unless it was already there. & then, maybe I'm wrong. Who knows?
You do what's best for your dogs, and in the end, that's all your dogs can ask from you, and that's all you can give. What you think is the best.
I wonder if this is done much? and if it isn't, why not? If the object of neuter is just to not allow puppy creation, then a vasectomy would do it. Is it widley assumed that ordinary people can;t handle a male anyway so we might as well go all the way? Is it medically more difficult to do one or the other? I am aware that in horses, stallions are MUCH different than geldings, but my sense is that is not so dramatic in dogs. What do you know?
Then I was like...They actually take their balls off?!?! WHY?!?!?!!
hahahaha ~
but I agree that more studies are needed....one of the reasons I wanted to start this thread was to see what people thought, if you'd seen other studies that contradict these, etc. It's the bone cancer I'm most concerned with....I know the cancer could have happened anyway, but I don't like the idea that I believe what I have been told (early spay and neuter! early spay and neuter!) without an informed decision, and in fact, I didn't make an informed decision--I simply listened to what I was told. And I think that if I had known my GSD would be more likely to get bone cancer because of it, I would not have done it, not without a lot more research, and perhaps erring on the side of waiting. That's why I want to know more about this, and want to think more about this, because if it means the difference between a few more years of healthy life, I'm all for it.