Akita Inu as an outdoor companion
I have current discussion running about the Ainu Dog, I've now decided to also look at the Akita. I'm looking for evidence that the Akita can be a good outdoor companion. For this to be possible I would need to have reasonable control over the dog whist not on the lead. I've read alot to sujest they have in the pass made good hunting companion, I can only assume that they weren't on the lead for this. The time when I'll need the dog of the lead will be such time as when for example we're in the canoe, when going ashore, when setting up camp etc. I don't want a dog that has to be tied up all the time or a dog that will run off the second I release it from the lead. Obviously going out for general walks or when other people, dogs and car are about the dog will remain on the lead but when I'm hiking and canoeing in the middle of nowhere I want to be able to allow the dog some freedom. Because bitches are smaller, I’d go for a bitch. So now for a question or two to start of the discussion. Are Akitas obedient enough to be able to have time of the lead in areas like Dartmoor, Snowdonia, Scotland etc on occasion when there’s no one around? Does anyone have a female Akita that is good of the lead? Or should an Akita never be allowed of the lead no matter where they are? They are quite large dogs, I do lots of running probably around 20 to 30km a week. Would this dog cope with that distance? I usual break it down into 5km a time with the occasional 10-12km run. Please any advice would be greatly appreciated. There’s a fair amount of information on Akita’s but some personal story of how your Akita acted whilst of the lead would also be good. So for main question. Can an Akita make good reliable outdoor companion the way they use to make good hunting companion.
Comments
We originally got into Akita for exactly what you describe - outdoor-type dogs, good hiking companionship, and some protection. I can tell you, for us, picking the Akita breed for this role was a terrible choice. Our Akita make horrible trail dogs, I mean really really bad. Putting aside the potential for poor health in the breed (which makes the useless for active life) issues and aggression, you still have a dog with a thick coat and low endurance. Also, our Akita HATE water and HATE mud, they also refuse to walk on ice... They hike great in grass on a cool day, but that's it.
If your looking for a breed to hunt/hike with you, I would pass on the Akita. I wouldn't waste the effort and time getting one only to find they don't fit the bill.
I know this post will follow with a bunch of Akita owners disagreeing with me, saying how great their Akita are on trail and how their Akita loves water - sure, there are some Akita that would work, but finding one that will work will be a very difficult process and you may end up with a dog that doesn't work for the role - and then what? Try again?
You also need to clarify if you are looking at JA or AA, an AA is a much safer bet for a hiking companion, but I think a JA would have more prey drive.
If you want an outdoor companion, consider a Kishu, Shikoku, or Kai. A Kishu seems like a good fit - they are in the middle of the Hokka and Akita as far as size goes, they are rather rugged dogs (if you get them from the right lines), they are still used for hunting (again, if you get them from the right lines) and they share a similar look to the Akita and Hokka. If I had it all to do again, a Kishu might be at the top of my list of breeds to choose from (and the Akita would not be on the list).
My answers for your questions...
Are Akitas obedient enough to be able to have time of the lead in areas like Dartmoor, Snowdonia, Scotland etc on occasion when there’s no one around? Does anyone have a female Akita that is good of the lead? Or should an Akita never be allowed of the lead no matter where they are?
>> Yes, if you use positive reinforcement techniques and start at an early age, Akita (IMHO) the the easiest to train and most obedient of the NK breeds. The key to getting an Akita to do what you want is to be non-confrontational and friendly toward them. Also Akita require respect, you must respect them for them to respect you.
Being a rather stubborn breed, they have a high-level of "learned helplessness", so you kinda have to get them to do things as pups and not help them, or they will expect your help from that point forward. Example: we helped Fuji on to our bed a few times, now she will not jump onto our bed w/o us helping her. She will literally stand with her front paws on the bed, leaning on it, all night. So strange.
They are quite large dogs, I do lots of running probably around 20 to 30km a week. Would this dog cope with that distance?
>> A female Akita is not a large dog. At around 70lb, I would not consider that large. If the weather is cool and the Akita is healthy, they will run with you... but I wouldn't plan any marathon runs with them.
Can an Akita make good reliable outdoor companion the way they use to make good hunting companion.
>> Can they? Sure, there have been Akita that have made great outdoor companions. Are they easy to find, no, not at all. I wouldn't bet any money on finding one. As for an Akita as a hunting companion, that's a one in a million deal, IMHO. Akita Inu have not been used for hunting, or any work for that matter, for many many years.
ETA - Have you considered a Jindo? A Jindo would probably be a great fit for you too.
----
the same lady also does cani-cross with her dogs and while i can't remember what sort of distances she is doing i know she covers a fair few km a week with them. i'm not aware of any issues she as had with them regarding running. although she doesn't start running with her dogs til they are around 18months old and of course gradually builds them up to running long distances.
brad just want to add that scott seems to be based in the uk so using his new dog for hunting would be out of the question, as its illegal in most parts of the uk to hunt with dogs. also there seem to be no breeders of kai, kishu or Shikoku here that i can find, which was rather gutting to find out cause i'm rather taken with the kai and shikoku. so importing would be only way to aquire one.
I wouldn't describe an Akita as being "very prey driven". They do have prey drive, for sure, but to describe it with the term "very" is a bit of an exaggeration. JMHO
Like I said, I'm sure there are Akita out there that fit the bill, and maybe you can find one even tho they are rare, but getting one as a pup is a risk as you do not know what they will mature to be. Perhaps you can get Rachel's friend's contact info and find out where she got her Akita from.
Another note on Akita, from my experience, there is no forcing an Akita to do anything. I took the "just let them deal with it" approach with 2 of ours and hiking, at a young age too, and they did everything they could to make it not worth my efforts - like spoiled little children. Our Akita Inu (JA) are less rugged than our Shiba Inu.
The one Akita we have that may have actually been ok with getting dirty and/or wet (our male named Kahuna), suffers from severe HD and can't do any of those activities anyway. So, that brings me back to my point regarding the risk in Akita: Sure, there are Akita in the world that would fit well with you, but finding one will be hard and the risk of getting one that will not work is too high, IMHO.
I have found, when selecting a breed of dog for a specific task, the best thing to do is to start by researching what the breed was used for in the past, if they are still used for that now, and what environmental conditions they preformed that role in. Once you find a breed that fits well in all those areas, then you should start looking at the "looks" of the breeds that fit.
A "pretty" and refined looking dog (not a very diverse phenotype) is probably not gonna be a very rugged one, that is something I have had to learn to accept.
----
Your criteria is similar to mine, tho I don't do any canoeing and such, we do have to cross a lot of streams while hiking and so our selected dog (breed) needed to be at least ok with water. I knew going into Akita that most didn't love water, tho I remember in my research reading that some Akita love water - it was very confusing... I came to the conclusion that it was the difference between the JA and the AA helped make the breed descriptions so confusing, perhaps. The difference for our choice in a breed, from your choice, was that we required some protection from our breed selection as well.
I can't tell you what breed would work because I only know what criteria you are looking for, but I don't know the priority of the criteria. I can tell you how I choose a breed and what I have learned tho...
First, you need to be realistic with your criteria for your dog, if you want one to hike with but you only get to hike once a year, then I would worry more about selecting a breed that will work well with your day-to-day life and not so much for hiking. If you are outdoors hiking 24/7 with your dog then I wouldn't worry as much about how the dog does during the time you are at home. This is what I mean by prioritizing, in the first example I would make hiking/camping capabilities pretty low on your list, while in the 2nd option I would make it top priority.
Breed descriptions can be a bit misleading, you have to look past the anecdotal points and sensationalized history, and focus on the traits the breed needed to preform their function, the environment they performed that function (time-line, location, and society) while keeping in mind what the breed has become today.
On the topic of environment, when looking at breeds its important to consider the environment in which they preformed the function they were bred/used for. For example, yes, it would seem a hunting breed (a true hunting breed, not a retriever or pointer) would be a good off-lead companion as they were probably used in that capacity when doing their "job", but you have to keep in mind that a dog hiking off leash with you and a dog hunting off lead with you are 2 very different situations. If you are hiking with your dog off-lead you an your dog are probably not hiking with the same goals in mind, but if you are hunting with your dog off-lead you both are actually doing the same thing - looking for game - so if your dog runs off after something you are probably just as excited as he is. If you are out hiking and your dog runs the other direction hunting, you will probably not be so excited about that.
Along with the environmental aspect, you have to consider what qualities are/were required for the breed to perform their role. Using a hunter as an example, they have to be some what independent and able to act on their own, this means they are probably not as biddable as other breeds may be (like a herder). Also a hunting dog (again, not a retriever or pointer) would have an intact prey pattern (FAP), so they would have a harder mouth and more prey instinct with less impulse control. Often hunting breeds are less loyal and more social, due to the fact they would need to be able to work with other hunters well. A very social true hunting dog would be a horrible choice for off-lead hiking, IMHO. A lot of the NK are kinda special in their bond with their owner, which makes them a slightly better off-lead companion than, say, a Dogo or a Husky.
Then I take that info and try to apply it (the breed's traits) to the model I am are attempting to select for in my dog selection.
I found that expecting a dog to do too much was a sure way to set them up for failure. In the past (like with Akita), if I had I looked at my criteria (each of the expected traits I was looking for in a dog and what roles I expected them to have), separately, and then grouped complimentary traits together, then selected a breed (or breeds) that met the grouped criteria, I would have had a better success rate.
For example, wanting an off-lead hiker that was also a guardian, is a rather difficult task as most dogs that are great PPDs or are natural guardians, are not the breeds you want off-lead in a volatile situation like hiking (where people and/or dogs "pop up" on the trail unexpectedly). Another example is the need I had for a dog that would protect us from wild threats, which requires them to be animal aggressive, while also wanting them to be safe around strange dogs (like the ones we meet on trail)... Well its hard (I'd say impossible) to have a dog that has those guardian traits (aggressive toward wild things) while not being predisposed to be aggressive toward strange dogs too.
Based on what you wrote in your first post (in this thread), it doesn't sound like you need a dog that will be safe off-lead in a busy public place. You just need a breed that would not bolt the second the you let them off-lead, that is why I thought and Akita would do ok for your off-lead needs. Certainly, if you need a breed that can be off-lead all the time, in any situation, then a herding breed is the way to go - the qualities that a herder requires to do their job make them great off-lead candidates (IMHO).
So, if you take a second and tell me your priorities I can give you a better guess on breeds that may work...
Based on what I (think I) know now, I think these breeds would work ok (to name just a few)...
Kai Ken
Kishu Ken
KBD
Dutch Shepherd
GSD
Newfie (maybe)
American Bulldog
Lab
Samoyed
Breeds I would think wouldn't work well...
Akita
Shiba
Huskie
Malamute
Mastiff
Any LGD
Dogo
I hope that helped, I know it was a long post. Sorry.
----
For this imho I dont think any of the NK is good for this because of the prey drive and the longer ranging while off leash. To me it seems like maybe a lab will be the best matched breed. I dont know about every one else but how easy is it to call off a NK when it is committed to chasing some thing? I know I cant call off any of my past and present NK when they are committed to chasing game.
If Scott does his activities in areas with other people and pets, a NK may not be a good breed and again this is just from my own experience. The reason I picked a retriever is because they stick to you like white on rice. With my bird dog Hana, I never have to worry about her off leash. She always is within eye sight, nearly perfect recall, and she is not agressive toward other people and animals. I know that I can call her off if she see's a rabbit or a quail and she is great in a small boat or a canoe.
I'd also add you might want to consider a Doberman Pinscher. They're pretty athletic dogs & tend to be "velcro dogs" who love to stick to their owners wherever they go. [ tho I'm not sure how their coat would fare in UK winters ]
The above listed breeds tend to be the best when it comes to recall I think, since they were sort of bred to come back to their owners. I'd probably stay away from hunting breeds.
The nice thing about most of the breeds listed is some of their best lines are in Europe so you'd be able to find a breeder that can ship to you.
I would also, if I were you, contact a few breeders, describe what you're looking for, & see if they think their dogs / breed will fit the bill.
Larry Painter in Missouri has some nice ACDs.
The Laiki are fun, but they don't hike WITH me unless they are leashed. Otherwise, I do the hiking, and they are off hunting. They check in periodically before blasting off into the woods again. The often lag behind barking at squirrels or whatever. In my opinion they are only suitable for being off-lead in rather remote areas. They aren't as dog-aggressive as Blue (based on Brad's descriptions) and I take them leashed on public trails often, but they can be highly intolerant of off-leash dogs (big or small) barging into their space.
I would really investigate the ACD.
Kohji is 6 years old and close to 40lbs, his medium size comes in handy is case you ever need to pick him up and carry him for any reason (which I have had to do, they are easy to sling over your shoulders!).
The walk to the beach we stayed at on Lake Huron was probably over one mile one way, Kohji was off leash hiking with us back and forth from the car to the beach. We also didn't see anyone else for 3 straight days. Like Gen said, they do seem to have a long range when hiking off leash with you, but Kohji's got a really solid recall. He is easy to call off of prey or a track, this has gotten easier as he's gotten older.
The campsite we stay at for hiking and canoeing is not as remote as the beach on Lake Huron as there are other people and dogs around at their sites. If we are at the campsite setting up, hanging out or breaking everything down, he can be off leash and will not wander to other sites. He will hold a down stay and he's trained to ignore other dogs. If we are walking with him somewhere away from the site close by other people, dogs, cars, etc. he is on leash. As for actually canoeing, he is off leash running along the banks for most of the 6 hour trips, loves swimming and climbing on down trees and branches, and pretty much just follows us with his nose to the ground the whole time. He will sit in the canoe and hang out for a little while, but prefers to be scouting the banks.
Kohji likes to hike in snowy weather too, but I don't make a whole weekend out of it, usually just a few hours
IMO, Kais are really awesome outdoor companions, I couldn't have asked for a better one. Just keep in mind that you would need to start working on recalls and down stays from the moment you get one and positive reinforcement is the best way to train them.
That's why I chose Chupa (Azores Cattle Dog), the breed seems to have similar qualities to the ACD but with a completely different look, more of a "guardy" temperament, and are less refined in general. So far, Chupa seems like a good choice for what I wanted in an off-lead hiker, but the down side to him is his HUGE working drive (which is not a surprise to me).
Also, Azores Cattle Dogs seem to really like water (they even have webbed feet), so you may want to have a look at the breed as they may fit well for you too.
----
@Kelly - it's great to see a pic of Kohji! It's been to long!
----
Some people may think they look too "plain" but it is acually one of my favourite breeds, both for looks and temperament.
You might also be interested in checking out the Cão de Castro Laboreiro.
They're both European breeds, although they might not be very easy to find in the UK.
On a side note, I do agree with Jess on the ruggedness of the Dobie. They are working dogs and they kick ass at what they do.
Im with Brad, I don't like ACD's but that is my own bias.
If you are interested in NK, I would go with a Kai as well. My male has been off leash on hikes since he was only a few months old and he does great. He sticks really close to me. He's only one now, but I completely trust him and can call him off game. He knows to stay close.
The female that I have right now came to me from being tied up outside her whole life. She is now a little over 1 1/2 and has been with me for two months. I brought her off leash a couple of weeks ago for the first time. I had to make sure that I could trust her first. We did a lot of work to get to that point, but she did great. She tends to run off a little further, but she always comes back and knows where I'm at at all times. I kind've tested her by hiding behind a tree. (I know a little cruel but I wanted to see what she would do.) She stopped cleared her nose, and found me in 2 seconds. No problem. She has a greater tendency of running off for game and not come back right when I call, but if I sit there for two minutes she is right back with me. It has been only two weeks, and we are still working on that. But all in all I think she's amazing.
I think that Kai's are so close to their humans that off leash hiking is possible for any of them. Even one as crazy as my little girl. And they are rugged. Koda is 52 pds., and is a tank. He will climb over, under, and through anything. Maymay is 39 pds. and is fast! She can outrun any dog, and doesn't mind getting dirty. They do great outside, and prefer to be outside 80% of the day.
Just remember not to go off leash within 100 yards of cars.
I will say a Kai or a Kishu sounds like it would be perfect for your needs.
I know nothing about breeders in the UK, sorry.
Im new to the forums like you and have recently got a female AA she is now just over 4 months old and has a great personality, very friendly and playful loves to get wet and muddy. We live down in Kent, England. I have been walking afew times in the brecon beacons range and hope to bring Kiara my AA there too once im happy her training is going well. We take her out almost everyday, from short 30min walks, through to 2-3 hours hikes and we dont have any problems with her off lead. I can recall her and she will come with out hesitation, but becuase she is still young we keep working with her on this. When it comes to hikes i have noticed she follows us all the time, she may run off but very rarely will wonder great distances from me and my lady. When there are a number of us she will run slightly ahead and wait till the last person has walked past her before moving foward again her self. She will run with me across parks and footpaths and wont stop till i do.
With other dogs she is very friendly and likes to play with any that she sees, but we are training her to ignore dogs.
I feel that knowing alot about a dogs breed can benefit you in the long run, but i personally feel that it is down to you the owner to train the dog. All animals are pron to health issues, primal instincts etc but its how you react and train the dog in them situations.
If your willing to put the hard work in training the dog then i feel you will have the dog that will suit your needs over time.
Nobody can really tell you how your dog will react when you reach Corn Du, Pen y Fan or Cribin (if those are some of the peaks you will look to climb while in Brecon) until you do it, but as long as you have put all the basic training in there, socailised your dog around other dogs and owners and basically put the effort in then hopefully you will have a dog that will enjoy you and your lifestyle, and you will have a companion.
Im no expert and certainly not well informed as alot of the people on this forum are about certain breeds (reading these forums always brings alot to the plate to learn from) but with my AA i feel with more time and training we could do alot of activities with her that you have mentioned.
Regards
Simeon
As far as Kai are concerned, I do not know of any UK breeders however there is one in Rome. I used to have her contact info., but somewhere between computers I lost it. I ran into her about two years ago walking two of her dogs while I was in Rome visiting family. The male was exceptionally beautiful.
US breeders will also ship to the UK, but I don't know how much that would cost.