Biting!!!
I didn't realize when I changed my signature, Wraith would take it literally!!! LOL
Talked to this a bit with Dave, but didn't get too in-depth. So I come to my forum family for advice
The past week Wraith has started to do something particularly aggravating [ I know, welcome to puppyhood!
] Essentially, he decides that my knee / calf / ankle is a tug! [ got him to stop tugging leash, so hes moved onto something else? lol ]
He's done this only a few times I can think of. The first was a few days ago at the vet's office. My sister & I were sitting in chairs in the exam room. Wraith was sitting down on the floor about 2 feet away. All of a sudden [ no movement or anything had happened ] he walks up to me, latches on to my knee & starts his biting / growling. Literally, could not get him off of me!
The second time was on a walk. He was going pee & I was standing again, about 2 feet away. [ leash was loose ] He finished, walked up to me like usual, only this time he latched onto my ankle & again couldn't get him off.
The third time was at the puppy class this evening a few hours ago. He did really well doing sit / stay / etc. then the "instructor" decided to spend 50 years talking. Again, I was just standing there when he latched onto my ankle and started ripping me a new one.
When he does this, it's really hard for me to pry him off. He does the whole growly, snarling thing. & boy does it hurt like a bitch!
Bite inhibition is going well, but the only time he bites usually is hands. [ mouthing really, not biting ] The times he goes for my ankles / calf / knee are totally random & always take me by surprise.
Of course, the puppy class "instructor" tried to "show" the class what we should do if a puppy does this or barks. she took Wraith's lead & when he barked [ to play with another pup ] she forced him down, to which he turned around & tried to rip her arm off. [ duh ] Apparently, he's an "aggressive" dog btw. *facepalm* [ try forcing me down & see if *I* don't rip your arm off, but oh, I must be aggressive too ]
We probably shouldn't continue going to that class anymore, huh? [ still pissed off from that so I'm probably not thinking clearly atm. ]
Anyway, I'd love & appreciate some suggestions. I'm going to give it another week or two to try to work out on our own, but after that I might get a behaviorist out here to see if he can help.
I'm worried about this behavior continuing as he gets older. Right now he can't do much damage, but at an 80lb dog, not safe.![:\](http://nihonken.org/forum/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
I expected biting from him, he's 1. a puppy & 2. a dutchie [ they do call his cousins the malis "maligators" for a reason! ] but other ""behaviors" we've been able to redirect / retrain successfully, this one not so much. [ esp. since it feels really random! ]
Thanks in advance guys. ~
Talked to this a bit with Dave, but didn't get too in-depth. So I come to my forum family for advice
The past week Wraith has started to do something particularly aggravating [ I know, welcome to puppyhood!
] Essentially, he decides that my knee / calf / ankle is a tug! [ got him to stop tugging leash, so hes moved onto something else? lol ] He's done this only a few times I can think of. The first was a few days ago at the vet's office. My sister & I were sitting in chairs in the exam room. Wraith was sitting down on the floor about 2 feet away. All of a sudden [ no movement or anything had happened ] he walks up to me, latches on to my knee & starts his biting / growling. Literally, could not get him off of me!
The second time was on a walk. He was going pee & I was standing again, about 2 feet away. [ leash was loose ] He finished, walked up to me like usual, only this time he latched onto my ankle & again couldn't get him off.
The third time was at the puppy class this evening a few hours ago. He did really well doing sit / stay / etc. then the "instructor" decided to spend 50 years talking. Again, I was just standing there when he latched onto my ankle and started ripping me a new one.
When he does this, it's really hard for me to pry him off. He does the whole growly, snarling thing. & boy does it hurt like a bitch!
Bite inhibition is going well, but the only time he bites usually is hands. [ mouthing really, not biting ] The times he goes for my ankles / calf / knee are totally random & always take me by surprise.
Of course, the puppy class "instructor" tried to "show" the class what we should do if a puppy does this or barks. she took Wraith's lead & when he barked [ to play with another pup ] she forced him down, to which he turned around & tried to rip her arm off. [ duh ] Apparently, he's an "aggressive" dog btw. *facepalm* [ try forcing me down & see if *I* don't rip your arm off, but oh, I must be aggressive too ]
We probably shouldn't continue going to that class anymore, huh? [ still pissed off from that so I'm probably not thinking clearly atm. ]
Anyway, I'd love & appreciate some suggestions. I'm going to give it another week or two to try to work out on our own, but after that I might get a behaviorist out here to see if he can help.
I'm worried about this behavior continuing as he gets older. Right now he can't do much damage, but at an 80lb dog, not safe.
I expected biting from him, he's 1. a puppy & 2. a dutchie [ they do call his cousins the malis "maligators" for a reason! ] but other ""behaviors" we've been able to redirect / retrain successfully, this one not so much. [ esp. since it feels really random! ]
Thanks in advance guys. ~
Comments
But be a bit prepared for the answer that you have to wait for the dog to outgrow it. :-) On the Working Dog Forum that I just popped in on for your leash question, there are several posts about enduring scarring from puppies for the tradeoff of a solid working adult.
Yeah, I've read from other Dutchie [ & Mali ] owners that they tend to "outgrow" it, but I'm a bit skeptical about that
Honestly, I wouldn't mind doing Shutzhund, Mondio Ring, Etc...but this is a dog I need to live with other people, other dogs, & other animals. Not sure how much I'd trust him if we did that type of sport.
I don't mind mouthyness, or nippiness...[ I actually like mouthy puppies ] but the full-out random chomp is kind of annoying LOL ~
There's also a guy at the dogpark. He's pretty cool, but knows nothing IMO about training dogs. His one year old white lab, now almost 90 pds. does this to him and it's really aggressive. He bites the shit out of his owner. Tore a canine into his hand the other day. He now needs a behaviorist, but he won't listen to me because he says my dogs are so well behaved I wouldn't understand. LMAO he knows nothing of how much work I've done with Maymay in the past few months, including private trainings and assessments with a behaviorist.
I am not saying Wraith is going to go this route at all, but I think it's you being a responsible owner to be concerned. He may grow out of it, but getting some professional advice will be good.
I'll be interested in what people come up with though, because I know I'm going to need help with this issue myself.....
Like I told you, it's ok to let your puppy know you are unhappy with a behavior. You can do so without being overly harsh or brutal. A firm "HEY" or "NO" or snapping your fingers at him to communicate to him he's done something bad is fine.
When he let's got of you, make sure to praise him and/redirect him to something he can bite like a toy or bite sleeve.
Also, it sounds like you need to spend a lot of time working on the "out" command (as in whatever is in your mouth, take it out). The easiest way to train out is to first train him to bite on command. Then you can clearly communicate to him when it is and when it is not acceptable to be biting.
Oh, and yes, you absolutely should not allow that trainer to touch your dog or his leash again.
When my GSD was a 10 weeks old pup, my roomie had a friend over. We were all talking in the living room, but the friend had to go to the bathroom. When she came down from upstairs, she caught my shepherd pup chewing on an old shoe sole. She takes the sole out of my pup's mouth, and enters the living room with the sole in her hand, and asked me whether my puppy was allowed to chew on it. I said in a plain tone that no, she is not. In the expectation that the friend would put the sole somewhere the dog could not reach. Instead, she races out in the hallway and pulls up my puppy (she lay down) in the scruff of the neck while she shouts: "BAD DOG! That's a baaad dog!" My puppy started to squeak, but the friend does not let go, and my poor pup quickly escalates to screaming. Meanwhile, I had - without really realising it - raised myself half off the couch in the living room while I, with a voice that could have etched anything, had said: "Relax. Relax! LET FUCKING GO OF MY PUPPY (her name)!! " I know I should not yell at my puppy, and I certainly hope she understood it was not meant for her, but I screamed the last sentence. I was only really conscious of what I had done, when I was coming up from the couch and had shouted at her. I was so frickin' mad!! She didn't let go of my pup until I screamed at her. I quickly retrieved my pup and took it far away from her! This might not seem like much of a reaction, but I'm normally a very calm person.
Btw - the idiot has never "forgiven" me for what I did (In fact it is her, who needs forgiveness, and I am NOT going to give it to her!)
Sorry, for my chattering. I just cannot tolerate people using force on animals!
"A firm "HEY" or "NO" or snapping your fingers at him to communicate to him he's done something bad is fine."
This doesn't work lol When he gets like this, his hearing turns off. Even "sit" which he knows 90% won't work. He knows "out" for playing tug [ still working on it, but he's getting there ] but when it comes to human clothes on the persons body, again...his hearing turns off
"When he let's got of you, make sure to praise him and/redirect him to something he can bite like a toy or bite sleeve. "
What I've been doing. Don't know if it's working yet since it's happened so few times. [ ie: it's not a common occurrence ]
"Also, it sounds like you need to spend a lot of time working on the "out" command (as in whatever is in your mouth, take it out). The easiest way to train out is to first train him to bite on command. Then you can clearly communicate to him when it is and when it is not acceptable to be biting."
Working on it
It was something I picked up on too. The few times he's done this was when I wouldn't allow him to run off & play. [ like at the vets, in the petco class, etc. ] He'd whine for a bit, quiet down, then launch himself at me.
At the Petco class [ he did it about 3 times ] I started distracting him with a treat [ NOT giving it to him, just letting him know I had it in my hand ] & when he let go of my leg, I had him sit & wait for 10 seconds. Then I gave him the treat. This has been the only way I can get him off of me. What do you guys think? ~
I think it's a good thing he'll let go for the treat...that sounds good, because you're distracting him to good behavior (let go, sit, wait) then treating, so that seems like a really good way of handling it.
I think Toby just enjoyed the feeling of hanging from something as a pup (my hair, a blanket, the sofa) and he was hard to distract and was not at all food motivated as a puppy (thankfully those days are past).
The anxiousness makes sense too. My GSD would nip/mouth when he was anxious. I remember him doing that as a young dog. What would a good reaction be to mouthing from anxiety? Try to get the pup to do something else to calm him? I'll be interested in hearing more.
(I just ordered the book Click to Calm on amazon--Jess had spoken about it so well--so I should I'll be interested in what that that book has to say).
I tried "out" but he was waaaaay too into it. So distracted him with some smelly freeze-dried cheese [ when he let go I said "out" ] had him sit & wait, then gave it to him. Naughty little pup!
Lisa -- I think he just "likes" to chew too, which is why I've been trying to work more "tug" into our training & playing, to give him that outlet. [ doesn't help that he's still teething! ] We've been super busy the past week, so poor Wraith hasn't been getting as much attention as he should be
Yeah, "frustrated" is the term I would use, as his body posture / the sounds he makes, everything is exactly the same as when training.
For example, when learning something new like "sit," he gets frustrated until he figures it out.
Also, I do think he is playing. The pants he does this to me in are loose & kind of sway [ loose sweat pants ] & so he sees it as another tug. Sort of like, "Well I can't play there, so I'm going to tug on the fabric around your knees instead! Fun!" ~
If it is still a really young pup say 14 weeks or younger I would back down on overstimulating situations until he can handle it. (Might be good idea redirecting back to the leash as a tug by first teaching an out or drop it to help.) Since breaking the focus once he is over stimulated that is going to be of issue, practice with break words or cues for self control. Teaching what's off limits is important too. Puppies with high drive can be big brats if they stand around too long, so self control is going to be a key factor in moving forward. I agree with crystal, move forward only when they are ready. The hand biting and frustration are signals directed at you that indicates he may need to be moved to a lower threshold and learn some differentiation in regard to objects. In the duration you may want to soak areas of interest such as cuffs, short hems and sleeve ends with bitter apple. Again context is everything. You will have to determine where to break the pattern by looking of those minor cues before he pops into overdrive.
I know your pup is a different breed and will be much bigger and more intense, but here is a super cool one that high drive Shibas like. http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2023&ParentCat=178
Snf
The way you describe that he's being frustrated (and therefore searching for an alternative action to let go of the frustration) makes sense to me, but especially because of this I'd be afraid, to increase his snapping... "I want something (attention/fun)- I don't get it - I bite mommy - I get attention and something to do. Yay!"
Seems like he gets frustrated really fast, like with the kenneling... I would try to teach him patience. Like letting him sit in front of the food bowl and get the food only on command, increasing the time he has to wait bit by bit. What I'd consider most important would be to teach him HOW to deal with his frustration, because otherwise you might get a lot of similar problems in the next month' and years...
What about giving him a toy and redirecting him to it until he has learned to be a bit more patient? I mean... You found out in which situations he does that, so you can prepare for it.
Maybe you tie him somewhere near you, but far enough, that he cannot bite you. And if he tries to go for your ankle (but doesn't reach it) you offer him a toy, food or something else to chew on instead?
That's what I'd do... Train him to be more patient on the one hand and keep him from succeeding in releasing his stress by biting, but offering him a "wanted" alternative.
When Etsu was about 8 or 9 month' old he started besieging me and humping and chewing my legs. At first I tried to "pull" him off my legs, but that made the game even more fun, so I straightened my body and went directly in his direction, forcing him to back away (without touching or hurting him of course!). Whenever he tried to come back and besiege me again I forced him back, until he calmed down and approached me in an appropriate way. Then he was rewarded by attention, petting and/or treats.
Maybe that might help as an SOS-action when Wraith starts biting you again, if everything else fails?
When he gets frustrated, do you see it building up, resulting in the behavior? I think the point about him being overstimulated is a good one. The command that we taught Violet was "settle down." We learned it in class and the way that the trainer used it was just to get their attention and make sure they wouldn't struggle at the vet, so it was teaching them to calm down and hold still. Violet was a super zen puppy so it was easy to get her to hold still but the trainer told us in particular to continue working the command since shibas are not fun to wait out when upset and that she might get more highly strung as an adult.
Anyway, if you can start training a command like that, I've found it incredibly useful. Whenever Violet is getting worked up (whether it's another pup pestering her or someone she desperately wants to greet) I'll tell her to settle down and she will. I've used it at the dog park too if another dog is not listening to her signals and continues to get in her face. Sometimes I can't reach her quickly enough to distract her directly and given the command she'll amp it down a notch or two until I get there. Best to use the command before things have fully
escalated completely, but pretty effective and extraordinarily useful as it applies in a number of different situations. Click to calm sounds like a promising book, but otherwise I would just start doing a bit every week (or daily), starting in non-stimulating situations, and working your way up through more excitable times. Likely that if you start small Wraith will probably quickly pick up the fact that you want him to tone it down, and that will allow you to redirect him much more easily, especially future situations if you're not right next to him and he's getting frustrated with something.
Also, it's probably good to work on it around the time that you're doing focus exercises like "look at me." Oh, and that trainer sounds kind of awful. A mouthy puppy certainly doesn't equal an aggressive one and a forced down? When we asked our trainer because Vi wasn't fond of doing the down command for a treat she told us to use more high value treats because "why would you want to lie completely down on an uncomfortable and unfamiliar floor?" I'd rather have a trainer that uses that sort of logic really.
Kiernan, have you ever checked out "on good behavior?" it's a class run by Anne McCauley that uses only positive training. She travels around NJ I think holding classes at different locations. Just ten dollars more for the entire eight week class than the classes held at Petco. The only suggestion is to go to a beginner's class rather than kindergarten since shibas seem to be a bit ahead.
Osy: I was at a seminar yesterday and there is a new tool on the market that came out in April that I was able to see in action during some agility practice work. For distance training it is pretty awesome. http://www.askdryin.com/manners_minder/ This product may help with directing self control as well for Wraith.
I am seriously thinking about using it for separation anxiety and reducing barking in a dog I have here. Works in a short period of time to teach a young pup limit barking. Particularly since you can go into another room to time it out as the dog is quiet.
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I haven't been on much as we've been moving the last bit of stuff left in our apartment to the new house. Anyway, I've essentially been taking an extremely rigorous approach with my [ not so little ] monster puppy Wraith.
Essentially, I've been trying to spend 90% of all my free time with him. The more I thought about it, the more I realized this "biting" thing started happening when we were in the midst of moving & hadn't been able to spend much time with him. As we sort of discussed earlier, his "biting" felt a lot like he was frustrated. & continuing on that thought...why would he be frustrated? Because he had WAAAAAAY too much pent-up energy. [ basic dog psychology, too much energy = frustration! ]
Thing about Wraith is tho, he rebels against the Florida Sun. [ essentially, he refuses to walk in direct sunlight & hops from bush to bush / shade ] So other then walking him in the evening or early morning, I needed to find some other way to expel that crazy pent-up energy.
---> Plan #1 - Find another puppy playmate for Wraith, Problem with this was, Wraith plays EXTREMELY rough & most other dogs don't like his style. However, a friend of mine has a 1-year-old pittie who also plays very rough...so she brought him over this past Saturday where he got to play with Budha the pittie for 5 hours straight! Huzzah! [ of course, there were some "rest" breaks for Wraith ] After Budha left, it was like I had a totally different puppy! He was so calm, I almost died of shock when I went to get him out of his crate & he just laid there LOL
---> Plan #2 - Keep the energy off! [ Since Budha can't come over & help me out every day lol ] Since Wraith doesn't like to walk outside in the sun during the day, I figured we'd "walk" together inside the house instead. So basically we've been playing games like "hide & seek," & "tag" in the house, running around like crazy.
---> Plan #3 - Fetch! Wraith LOVES to chase things & so this was a really good way to get some energy out too. Funnily enough, he was a natural retriever. We didn't have to "teach" him to bring things back, he just did, so we praise him when he does. [ I thought I got a shepherd...not a lab! ]
---> Plan #4 - Stepping up the training. My little man has endless amounts of physical energy, but one thing that tires him out the most mental training. I haven't been pushing him too hard, as I've been told he's just a pup, but he LOVES it. So I've decided to just follow his lead on this. We're working on stay, recall, down, out, & of course, continuing to reinforce "sit." Also, working on some basic heeling a bit & impulse control.
All in all, since I've started all this last Saturday, he's had one instance of "biting" & it lasted all of 5 seconds where he released when I said "out!" Huzzah!
This was probably a case of "over-thinking things" mixed with some stress from moving, a death in the family, etc. etc. so I was a little too blind-sided to see that my pup just needed an energy outlet & biting was just a "symptom" of it.
Thanks again guys! I;m going to continue on this path & God Willing it continues to work out! ~
But yeah, there's a HUGE difference between Wraith on an energy high vs a properly stimulated Wraith. The first is a little devil, [ as the breeder called him ] the second in a very calm, very relaxed pup. When he's exerted all his energy, it actually scares me as he looks more & more like an "adult" then a pup.
They grow up too fast
I feel you on that growing up fast. Koda went from 7 pds. to 14 in one week! The first week I had him. It was so sad. Then by 5 mos. old, he was almost at his weight now, 48 pds. He's all topped off at 53. It was so sad. My baby grew up too fast. But he will still need you, no matter how big he looks.
And what happened with the frog plague in the pool?
I'm just thinking about how fast they grow--Tara, 7 lbs to 14 in a week is astounding! I keep looking at the pics of my pup and realize he won't even look like that when I get him as he'll be 8 weeks old not 4 weeks!