Am i a big meanie
Hi
I took my 13 week old akita to puppy classes last night and to start things off my i noticed my puppy started to pee.
I told him a "no" command and he stopped. I then took him out side and he finished his business I then rewarded my puppy with food. I thought this was the right thing to do when i came back inside i got a lecture from the training lady about scolding my puppy.
I didn't scold him it was a simple "no" said in a stern tone.
Also he no longer mouth's any more and to stop him from doing this all I did was grab him firmly by his scruff and tell him no in a stern voice then shove a chew toy in his mouth. When I told the training lady this she said that what I was doing was very wrong and could cause aggression later on WTF she told me to put the dog out side for 7 mins then let him back in.
I think this technique would not be that effective with an akita as they are an independent dog breed.
So do I need to re think my training or am I doing the right thing?
I love my dog very much and I never yell or scold my puppy but do you really have to be that soft.
I took my 13 week old akita to puppy classes last night and to start things off my i noticed my puppy started to pee.
I told him a "no" command and he stopped. I then took him out side and he finished his business I then rewarded my puppy with food. I thought this was the right thing to do when i came back inside i got a lecture from the training lady about scolding my puppy.
I didn't scold him it was a simple "no" said in a stern tone.
Also he no longer mouth's any more and to stop him from doing this all I did was grab him firmly by his scruff and tell him no in a stern voice then shove a chew toy in his mouth. When I told the training lady this she said that what I was doing was very wrong and could cause aggression later on WTF she told me to put the dog out side for 7 mins then let him back in.
I think this technique would not be that effective with an akita as they are an independent dog breed.
So do I need to re think my training or am I doing the right thing?
I love my dog very much and I never yell or scold my puppy but do you really have to be that soft.
Comments
It is no fun getting scolded by a trainer (and a seven minute time out IMHO is excessive, honestly most dogs will forget why they are timed out). But she is working to help you build and maintain a really good bond with your dog. It is great that you are being open minded enough to ask and not write her off. Try her methods. They work (on big independent dogs too)
The primary difference is motivation for the dog. Instead of the dog doing what you ask because they are intimidated by you. They do what you ask because the respect you and know you care about their well being. May sound a little new agey I admit, but as someone who used the old ways for years and then learned the new. The new way IS better.
Good luck!
And let's see some pictures!
When Saya was being mouthy I'd just say no or ah ah! and give her a proper toy to chew on if she kept it up I got up and ignored her and when back to playing again.
"Alpha Wolf R.I.P." http://www.gundogmag.com/training/GD_wolf_1109/index.html
Just my two cents.
To comment on your question, I have said 'no' to my dogs before while they were peeing somewhere they weren't supposed to. I just did it today as a matter of fact when one of my Kishu was thinking about peeing in the house. Stopped her right in her tracks. She was housebroken using positive reinforcement, so she knows where to go, but she was just getting antsy waiting while I got the dogs ready for a walk. I like my dogs to understand that no means no. I guess there's a balance to everything.
The trainer sounds like they're extremely positive reinforcement oriented which is definitely better than swinging toward the other side of the spectrum (especially with independent breeds).
Like Jessica said, dog training has been evolving a lot over the past few years. Doing a little research on it, and then most importantly finding what works best for you and your dog is probably the way to go. I'd give the trainer another shot, maybe they know their stuff. In the end though if you're not comfortable with them, find another trainer.
I use "no" in situations where I need my dog to listen to me. I said no to Koda the other day when he thought about marking on someone's silk plant. I needed him to stop that instant and said no. He is also trained not to do this already. He was taught only to go on grass and plants with Positive Training techniques. I'm not training him anymore, so I said no.
I will also say no when there is a danger involved, ie the dogs run out of my parents house and in the street. Since I don't say no often, they know when they hear it to immediately stop that action. I feel if I said no to everything, then they would just block it out.
I wouldn't say you're a meanie, but you should ask the questions...Can I get the same training result without putting my hands on my puppy? and What are the consequences/end result that could happen if I do continue to place my hands on him to teach him not to do things?
I think you can get the same results using more positive training methods, and I have to agree with posters that he can become head shy and shy to your hand if you continue to grab him. I think you said it already. He's going to be a big boy when he grows up. If he choses to snap back at your hand, then you will be paying the price.
All in all, I think that you have to decide what's best, and hopefully some of our feedback can help guide you in making your decision.
I had not heard of the "LIMA" philosophy (least invasive, minimally aversive), but I think its a good rule of thumb to go by when faced with a training scenario.
Truth is, I preach positive methods constantly, but if we used only reward-based methods with our 14 dogs we would have gone insane by now. I have a lot of patience, but I don't have enough to deal with all these dogs, and the complex management issues that come up, with only reward-based methods. Sometimes we have to use punishment - it is my opinion that it is in your choice in punishment that will make you a "meanie" or not.
Because of this, I really like time-outs, I think they work great, even for dogs that are more independent (even the most independent dogs likes to be with their family and doesn't like to be shunned). I like negative punishment in general, i think its usually a non-adverse way to give punishment when punishment is needed.
An example of this is turning your back when a puppy jumps on you, if you don't reinforce that behavior (by giving the puppy the attention he/she wants) then the behavior will stat to go away on its own - but when you add the removal of your attention all together (by turning around) you add punishment to the equation and the behavior will go away even faster.
I use this with Blue, our Cane Corso, a lot. He can be a real spaz when its time to go for a walk, he really gets nuts. He will knock his head into yours when you try to put his collar on him, or he will fling his body all around, and force himself in between you and other dogs you may be putting a collar on. It can be SUPER frustrating when you are trying to get them out the door (especially if you are pressed for time)... Admittedly, my first instinct was always to get mad and tell him "no" or whatever, but that didn't communicate what I really wanted to him.
So, I started to just drop everything and walk away. When he starts to be an ass and lose his impulse control I just leave, as if the walk is not gonna happen. You know, it took just a few times of me doing this and now I can leash him and the other dogs up without any freaking out. It helped me the most, as it gave me a tool and helped to reduce frustration.
Anyway, my point is, its not "punishment" that is the big "no no" in "positive training", it is aversive punishment, or physical punishment (techniques that use fear or pain to get the behavior) that are the "no no". IMHO
I hope this ramble helped.
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I have used timeout and it worked wonders with both dogs. I've just had to be mindful of where the timeout takes place. If I put Maymay in a timeout in her crate, she inevitably has some treat hidden in there and has a good ol' time. If I put her in an expen in the kitchen, then she watches us and gets upset that she is in timeout. It is way more effective than playtime in her crate. Come to think of it, I haven't had to use timeouts in a while. They did work.
When we first got him he was a very dominant pup and use to try it on all of the family now he has learnt his place in the pack he is a lot better.
Here is the training method I used. http://www.eukanuba.com/en-UK/eukanuba-tv.jspx Its the forth video I think its titled basic discipline
Jesse
This one is very good too: http://www.youtube.com/user/DogStarDaily#grid/user/7A76DE86A782E6F6
He already has come such a long way in training he was so easy to house break it took about 4 nights and he can sleep alone inside and not make a mess and I'm very proud of him.
Thank you for all the advice and video links its given me a greater understanding on this new form of dog training I wont be getting out the pinch collar for this dog ill try the positive reward method I'm very patient and we should both get through ok
thanks again.