Per @ramps request: Reward-based Training Alternatives to Punishment-based Training Scenarios

BradA1878BradA1878
edited September 2010 in Behavior & Training
Simon ( @ramps ) had a good suggestion for a discussion, and so I have started this one for him...

This thread is for members to request suggestions on reward-based training alternatives to punishment-based training examples. Please feel free to ask for a "positive" version of a common training situation that is usually solved with a "negative" method.

An example would be loose-leash-walking, lots of trainers would suggest using "leash corrections" to train your dog to "heel" on command. The "positive" alternative to this could be to use a lure and lure your dog into position and then reward your dogs once he is in the position you want him to be (which in this case is next to you and not out in front of you).

All members should feel free to give your best example of reward-based alternatives to the requested training scenario, or feel free to ask for an alternative to a punishment-based training scenario of your own.

Comments

  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Great thread!

    Ok, I have a question, because this came up on the Shiba side. What if we need to do something to a puppy who is not yet been trained to accept certain things? Example: Oskar has not yet been conditioned through positive reinforcement to let me look at his paws. But he was limping, and I had to look. Trying to distract him with food/toys did not work, and finally, we just held on to him through all his squirming so I could look, and then remove the ball of tree sap between his pads. It did scare him; he rolled his eyes a bit, and crawled up into my lap afterwards for comfort, as he did the only other time anything "bad" happened to him (ie. when Toby bit him). I know that rather than forcing him to submit to us holding him, he should be conditioned to all kinds of touching, holding, etc. But we're not there yet.

    So if you have do something like this before your dog is used to it, what is the best option (ie. least aversive?)

    (he's fine, and sap is gone, and he's a pretty steady dog, so while he was scared, he got over it pretty quickly, though he was suspicious of my husband for the rest of the evening--even though I did most of the holding, and was the one feeling his paws!)

  • SangmortSangmort
    edited September 2010
    Lisa - Have a suggestion, or this is what we did anyway. We've been needing to trim Wraith's claws [ they hurt like a b!tch! ] while he's accustomed to having his paws handled [ came to me that way ] getting him to sit still was a HUGE problem. He was all-over hyper spazzy puppy as usual wanting to play :)

    Not the exact same scenario, but this is what we did. [ when Wraith IS hurt he sits & presents his paw to me on his own, big baby lol ]

    We got a big wooden spoon with a big glop of peanut butter on it. [ doesn't have to be, & if Oskar's not food motivated I'd advise maybe waiting until dinner time when he's hungry, & using something extra high-value to him///then going to have a look at his paws, IF it can wait. Keep him settled in his crate til then so he doesn't hurt it more ] We put Wraith into a sit, PB on spoon in plain sight.

    Bri had him occupied with the peanut butter while I snipped each of his claws. It took a while for him to understand he only gets the PB when he sits still, but he got it after around 10 minutes.

    I'd also say take it real slow if he's not use to have you touch his paws at all. Unless it's a super emergency [ in which case, he should be at the vet ] another 20 minutes or so to take it easy won't hurt. I'd just keep him busy on the extra-special food so you can look at his paws.

    [ these puppies hurt themselves so much! Drives me nuts haha ] ~
  • aykayk
    With loose-leash walking, I remember my trainer from 14 yrs of ago showing me some tripping moves. Not tripping the dog but the walker pretending to trip. "Oops, clumsy me." If a dog can be embarassed of its owner, that was the expression on my dog. It taught my dog to keep an eye on the walker. So not quite adversive, but not quite positive.
  • okironokiron
    Positive way to teach a dog to not enter a part of the house, let's say the kitchen. (no you can't just say put up a dog gate :P)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    @shibamistress - I like Osy's example. We have always fed a treat to the dog the second we touch the "part".

    So, for us we do it with collar grabs - you never know when you might have to grab your dog's collar. When our dog is a puppy we would hold a treat in our hand and give them the treat as we reach for their collar. Once they got to the point that they would ignore our hand approaching the collar and just focus on the treat, we would then do the same exercise but start to lightly grab the collar too. We would keep this up until it was a non-event for them: they would ignore our hand and take the treat. When we got to this point we would start to pick up the speed and force of grabbing their collar while giving them a treat. Eventually they would not care about us grabbing their collar at all - and sometimes it would even become a positive association.

    It doesn't take long, I can usually get a "green" puppy to positively associate me grabbing at them by the end of 1 puppy class - that's 30 minutes time.

    I would do the same with feet, tail, ears...

    Feed a treats as you approach the foot, when the approach is not a big deal to him anymore add touching the foot, when that is not a big deal, add holding the foot...

    Also, with our Kai (who tend to suck with nail trimming) we will just stick a big treat in their mouth while work on nail trimming - something they have to chew - like a bullystick.

    Here is an example:



    *Ignore the person in the beginning with the GSD who clumsily grabs the collar - don't do that. LOL

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    @okiron - It depends on how clearly defined the entry to the room you would like to restrict is. In our case we do not have any hallways, so we cannot train a dog to stay at one entry point to the room - instead we use a mat...

    I would try "place training" - train the dog to "got to their place/mat". Its a combination of targeting, luring, and capturing. Once you have them "mat trained" then you simply put their mat where you want them to be and ask them to "go to their mat/place". This gives you the added flexibility of allowing them in the room when you want them in the room, or on their mat if you need them out of your way (like while cooking).

    If you have a clearly marked boundary to the room, like 1 door into the room, you can do the same approach but use the doorway as the "place/mat".

    Here's a nice example:




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  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Mat training has saved me a few times with Koda when going into new situations/places. We take a mat with us. I also tell people not to bother him when he's on his mat. It's his safe place sometimes when too many strangers are around. This works well at my sister's house where she invites everyone over for dinner all the time. There could be up to 40 people in her home at one time. She's really social. lol
  • okironokiron
    edited September 2010
    Totally bookmarking this thread btw.

    Q: How to get a dog to not crowd the doorway whenever you have to answer the door.

    A: (courtesy of LJ) Door bell training...it took some doing. It started with my niece ringing the bell, my nephew playing with Jazz in the living room, and me being in the bedroom (where her crate is). Niece would ring bell and I would call Jazz to her crate and treat with cheese (super high value to Jazz). We would do this for 10-15 minutes a day and treat/praise. After the second week, Jazz figured out that when Kodee went to go outside it meant a treat was at her crate, so we had to shift who was doing the bell ringing to the niece next door. Once she caught on that it didn't matter who rang the bell, we were good on her going to the crate. We then began working on me not calling her and the bell ringing. To do that part, she started off in the bedroom on the bed and me throwing the treat in the crate when the bell rang. We would move her further out of the room until she was back in the living room.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    haha... We train our big dogs to understand the "shoo" command. By "shoo" I mean: think of the motion and noise you would make if you were "shooing" an annoying person out the door or a fly away from you.

    We trained the dogs to backup or back-off when we do the "shoo" thing at them. LOL. It works great now if we need them to get away from the door or to go outside - we just tell them to "shoo".

    Its a lot of fun to do to a 150lb dog who is going nuts at the door. :o)

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  • shibamistressshibamistress
    This is a great thread. One of the biggest lessons for me was simply reevaluating what I needed to do....did I HAVE to force Oskar into a down so I could look at his paw, before he was used to that? I was thinking I did, so I did it. But you know, did I really? No. (I had tried the peanut butter trick, btw, but he was too focused on us holding him as scary and didn't care about the food. But also, peanut butter is kind of "meh" for him, so perhaps I should have tried cheese instead, which he loves!)

    Last night I practiced doggy zen with him, and he got to the first part (stop touching her hand and I get the treat!) really fast....I also am doing the collar thing with him, though he's so mellow about that that he hardly needs it. I am practicing it with Bel, though, who DOES need it. Her reaction to me trying to grab her collar is to run, so we're working to change that!

    Mat training is I think what we're going to do in my clicker class....at least we have to bring a mat to class on Saturday!

  • rampsramps
    Thanks for the thread brad.

    Any way it's been a bad day for me and my akita today.
    While i was at work my 14yo daughter was told by my wife to put Toby my little fox terrier in the laundry to give him a bone.They are always fed separate to prevent issues as he is very food protective especially of bones. so what does she do throws it on the back lawn between the two dogs and walks inside guess what happened, Yep a big fight my akita picked up the foxy and started shaking him violently my wife broke up the fight but the damage is done 2 months worth of gentle introduction and socialisation down the toilet the little foxy is back to fear biting my akita again. They were getting along fine. I could even go out and leave them together and it's all been ruined thanks to her carelessness.

    Any way end rant.
    Just need some general advice my akitas prey drive is also starting to get triggered by my kids running around he likes to chase them and nudge them with his nose with gentle mouthing. He even knocked one over today and got on top and started licking the poor little fella. I scared him more then hurt him but I need this behaviour to stop ASAP. So I'm thinking I should get his attention then when he stops chasing click and treat him and when he ignores them when they are running then click and treat him again.
    Would this work as a positive method to stop this behaviour.

    Also we are expecting a baby soon so I want him to totally ignore the baby now I have done this in the past with my old rotti using a pretty harsh method of a 10m long line and a prong collar and using the babies clothes put in the middle of the floor when the dog went near them i gave a very strong correction. Now this was extremely effective but I just can't bring myself to do it to my akita so any help guys would be great.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Ramps it sounds like it might not have been such a good idea to bring in a dog/puppy at this point. These things you describe in combination with your life factors are going to be a huge challenge. What is occurring is just the tip of the iceberg. I would suggest getting some training with your daughter and wife at a qualified training center. Where are you located regionally....Are you in the U.S.? If so, I would seek advice from a behaviorist or someone from trulydogfriendly.com.

    If individuals in your family can not participate with the training at the center and follow up, then it may be best to find a good home for your Akita before things escalate any further. Although you are able to handle the dog it is the combined interactions with the whole family in addition to the other pet that will determine the fate of your Akita. Consider this very carefully given you work and the weight will rest on others to make sure stability is achieved with such a large puppy that will grow to need more hands on as it develops.

    There are some classes that are developed for inclusion of Children and dogs. To reiterate, it will be really important to get your kids to training too and have your wife back up what is learned so the dynamic is not stressed any further.

    Snf

    Here are some great starter resources to plan out things given you will have a newborn in the home.

    http://www.amazon.com/Living-Kids-Dogs-Without-Losing-Your/dp/1933562668
    http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/behavior.html (see section Dogs in the Family)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time, Simon. I agree with what Patrice (@StaticNfuzz) wrote - this sounds like a situation that could go bad real quick.

    I honestly think most of these issues can be solved by simple management (like don't let your Akita out when the kids are playing), but as Patrice pointed out, unless the whole family is on-board with the management plan it will end up failing.

    I think Patrice wrote most of what I was thinking, but I did want to add something specifically about reward-based training...

    You wrote: "So I'm thinking I should get his attention then when he stops chasing click and treat him and when he ignores them when they are running then click and treat him again."

    I think this is a solid effort, but one of the reasons why reward-based training methods fail for some people is because they try to implement them in a reactionary way and in a situation that is not really conducive to using them without having already formed (reward-based) foundation with the dog.

    Using your situation above (what I quoted) as an example, you wouldn't want to just go outside and try to capture (with a clicker) your Akita's behavior. I mean, this is part of what you would want to do, but not the only thing. Before you try to capture the behavior in such an active and excited environment you should try capturing the behavior with the dog by himself.

    Take him out in the yard alone and do a series of recall exercises - clicking and capturing the second the dog turns to run toward you (you want to capture the very first instant the dog turns to come to you as that is the part you are trying to capture - clicking once he comes to you is too late).

    Once you feel you have a solid-base to his recall, THEN you can start attempting to call and capture when he has other environmental stimuli. This will set him up for success, and build on his base training, which is much easier for the dog to do instead of having to learn a new behavior under such stimulating circumstances. You need to be fair to the dog.

    I think reward-based training is all about building a base and then expanding that base in different environments. It is a more proactive training method than punishment-based methods which are more reactionary (reactive).

    There is a "find it" clicker game I play with the dogs that really helps recall - I can't find a video example of it tho, maybe I will just make one...

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  • shibamistressshibamistress
    First, sorry to hear about what happened with your dogs.

    Since I'm just learning about clicker training, myself, I don't have any suggestions for Ramps....I think SnF's points are good ones, but I also think this: now the dog is at home, and Simon is making a good effort to learn with the dog about positive training and also to manage the behavior of the dogs. My feeling is unless it is really completely unworkable, the dog has a home and a family, and so now it an issue of management coupled with more training for the pup. I suspect management is harder in a family with children, so maybe it really won't work, but I'm hoping it will....

    Does seem like the dog can't be out when the little kids are playing. Also, does he sit for petting/interaction? That might help....my AA pup sits as soon as he gets close to someone so he is sitting to be petted, greeted, etc, and on the (rare) occasions we meet kids, he does it too, so that probably helps (of course if said child ran away and he was off leash, he probably would chase).

    Anyway, I don't have any useful thoughts, but I'm sorry the situation is difficult.

  • rampsramps
    Bread I agree the issues are totally manageable.

    As for re homing my dog It's not an option he's a member of the family and we stick together.
    I would be struggling to find somebody else that has as much time for him as we do.
    I would hate to see him stuck behind a chain link fence in somebody else's yard as an ordainment.

    Any way as for the feeding option I've started a roster where the two oldest kids have a different night of the week to feed them.
    So it becomes second nature for them to separate the dogs when they want to give them something to eat.
    The two dogs are happy and getting along fine again today so I don't think any real damage was done.

    I spoke to a behaviourist last night via email that has helped me in the past with one of my rescued rotties. That dog was found in a small shed about 4 houses down from where i use to live the dog was tied up and about ankle deep in faeces and was about to be shot because no body could get near it any way long story short gave it some food and gave some animal control people and some police officers a stern talking to as i walked past them with him on a lead.
    Anyway she said It would be an easy problem to fix so she is going to be working with us this week end.

    Apart from him chasing the kids (This has only happened 3 times) We have not really had any issues but I like to have a plan in place to stop issues as they form and become embedded as a behaviour that is harder to deal with down the track.

    Thank you for the info Brad.

    It's basically what the behaviourist told me as well about conditioning and then adding other stimuli into the situation.
    She said she will show us how to do this on the weekend. I will let you guys know what's happening.


  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited September 2010
    Well, I took a second to make a video for this thread. Jen and I chatted and decided a combo of the "Name Game" and "Find It" would be a good tool for reinforcing name recognition and recall. So, here is Loa and my fatness in a video explaining some this stuff...





    ETA - Excuse the odd sounds from behind the camera. No, Jen is not a troll or a hedgehog or something, those sounds are coming from Chase who is attached to Jen (who is operating the camera).

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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited September 2010
    One more thing that Jen just pointed out to me, for this video I used kibble and freeze-dried chicken as the reward (treat). Toward the end of the vid you can see Loa is losing interest in the kibble - it wasn't high value enough. This session would have gone better if I had used a higher value treat - so don't make the same mistake as me! :o)

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  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Brad I wanted to share with you, I watched this video (which is awesome BTW) and Hilo got off the couch and watched it with me. He totally recognized your voice.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    thanks Brad! Very useful for me too....I needed to get the head turn part down. Love the video!

    Simon/ramps, good to hear you've got some help and a plan in action. I'm hoping all goes well for you all....
  • rampsramps
    Well i spoke to our behaviourist again today on the phone and she suggested an e collar for his chasing problem.
    I'm not to sure about this one I've worked so hard with him to not use any negativities in his training I don't want to use this type of device.
    So i hope when she comes and sees me tomorrow she can help us with some softer options.
    I started him on the "leave it" and the "place" command today and am having some good results we did 3 training sessions today and I will keep this going each day till the baby is born in April next year (he is currently sleeping in his place at the moment after being told to stay there).
    So in my opinion this should tackle the chasing issue and the baby issue as well I'm just going to wait and see what she has to say tomorrow.
    I think if I slowly introduce stimuli with these two commands I should get the results I require without the e collar.
    Also we start obedience training next Wednesday so that should help with his progress as well.
  • rampsramps
    By the way I'm just starting to learn how powerful of a tool that little clicker is.
    It makes training go so much smoother.
  • kwyldkwyld
    Ramps, I think getting a second opinion from a board certified animal behaviorist would be a really good idea before using an ecollar on your akita. Are you already consulting with one or a trainer? I doubt that any boarded behaviorists that would recommend using an ecollar for this issue.

    Just a quick story to give you another perspective on the ecollar thing, we had a Lab come into the office for a behavioral consultation that was extremely aggressive to people and the family couldn't figure out why because he hadn't started out that way.

    They had gotten an electric fence around the property and did the proper training with the ecollar on the dog and teaching the dog the perimeter of the fence line, they did everything right according to the fence company. Well, people walk by this family's house down sidewalks, kids come over to visit, etc. The dog barks at and charges at people walking past their property, he runs up to the invisible fence line as he's doing this, and then gets shocked. After months of this happening, the dog has solidly associated people with being shocked. Not a very good association to have.

    If you need a number to a boarded behaviorist I can give you one, just let me know. IMHO, I wouldn't risk teaching your dog to associate your family with being shocked.
  • rampsramps
    Hi Kwyld

    Yea she did suggest the ecollar as well as a few other things.
    She is a trainer that has been around for a long time and she also works with rescue dogs that have behaviour problems I'm not sure on her exact qualifications but she does get good results and has helped us in the past.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    I think the e-collar is a recipe for disaster in this case, for the reasons Kwyld has said....
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    @ramps - Was she recommended the use of the ecollar specifically for the chasing-of-the-children issue? Was it suggested as a means to stop predatory drift, or was she suggesting it as a means to correct the behavior?

    Also, above you called her a behaviorist and then later you called her a trainer - which is she?

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  • rampsramps
    Hi brad
    She does training and behaviour work.
    For twelve years she served with the RAAF as a specialist police dog handler and trainer well as a specialist drug detector dog handler and trainer.
    But I'm not exactly sure on the exact veterinary qualification she has or actually has one.
    She was supposed to come around for a visit yesterday but she got caught up in family matters so we will be talking to her later on in the week.
    She didn't go in to exact details on how the e collar would be used and under what circumstances.
    But I will keep you guys posted.

    For the mean time I've bought him a kong toy that I fill with dehydrated lamb and a special fluffy teddy that he likes and these are his special toys that only gets given out while the kids are out side playing and running around. It seems to be working and it keeps him busy.
    The kids understand when he has his special toys they are to leave him alone so it is a quick fix for now.
    He's not aggressive at all and he plays very nicely 99% of the time but the chasing thing is annoying and it scares the kids.
    I'm hoping she can help with out using anything negative.
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