Is this behavior acceptable between two dogs?
I am hoping to get some opinions of this clip of two female sibling Shiba’s fighting. Do you believe that the bigger female is overdoing the “bullying?” Does is seem more intense because the smaller one is being very vocal?
Is this behavior between two dogs acceptable?
I’m a little hesitant to write my actual reason for the post so I was hoping that perhaps through the analysis of this youtube clip, it may help answer some questions I have.
Comments
My humble opinion...
The bigger female is not listening to the younger one. You can tell it's not acceptable because the 3rd dog (Mom) intervened to do two things.
1.) decrease the excitement of bigger puppy and break up the kill shake
2.) briefly body check the smaller puppy to make sure she's ok.
The play may have been too rough for the smaller one, and even if she "faked it", it's just good to teach both female puppies that the behavior that growls are play, but yelps are not.
Jesse
I would say that the behavior in that video is not outside the realm of common dog behavior, especially between 2 puppies.
If you are really asking if we humans should allow that behavior between dogs then my response is no. I agree with Jesse, the aggressor is not listening to the (very clearly communicated) screams from the smaller pup.
If you are asking if I think that behavior is indicative of any underlying behavioral or mental conditions, my response would be maybe. But its hard to tell since we do not see any videos where either pup is acting normal. This video could have been shot directly after a crazy play session, or their could be some high value item just outside the view of the camera that triggers this interaction. Its hard to judge the mentality of a puppy from one short video clip.
To me it looks like these 2 pups are having an argument. Arguments never look pretty, especially in pups. Their age and lack of social maturity makes the interaction even worse since they are not seasoned communicators. I personally would stop an interaction like that, but that's JMHO.
PS: I have seen some pretty nasty arguments like this between littermates and the pups involved grow to be "normal" dogs.
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I don't think we can tell much else from this video, though.
BTW, I checked out another couple of videos....a couple after the pups is the wierdest video ever of some Shibas chowing down on cabbage!
The "kill shake" is not play behavior, and I'd discourage it. The smaller pup clearly gave up long before the bigger one stopped making it's point, whatever point that was.
As an almost 2 year old dog now, the instances where he has gotten into fights with other dogs have been very similar to the clip, except he is now the relentless aggressor. This has probably happened about 4 times over resource guarding issues and dogs that will not leave him alone (fear based). The damage that he has left on the other dogs have luckily been relatively minor (tuft of fur pulled out or a small cut) however the display of “aggression” is intensely loud and he continues to pin them down and hold his bite even though it is clear that the other dog has “lost.” He will not relent until I literally have to pull him off.
I thought I had done everything right with Kiba. We socialized him heavily as a pup, had strangers give him treats, met new dogs everyday, encouraged him to not to be afraid of things. And it seemed to work well for him until after he was a year old he would not tolerate strange dogs or people. I avoid the dog park completely, I avoid walking him too close to another dog, and when strangers want to pet him I tell them that he does not like to be pet. This keeps him happy and it keeps us happy and other than that I have no issue with him at all, he is a really good fit for our family. However when I read about aggression in dogs it almost always boils down to bad owner/training.
I feel that I have done everything that I can for Kiba with the help of some behaviorists in Southern California but, even though he has mellowed out he can never have the same disposition as a dog that never learned this behavior. Can this behavior ever be corrected? Was it too traumatizing and ingrained into him as a puppy? I feel very much on this level that I have failed him in our owner/pet relationship. Is this something that I should accept as part of his personality? What would you other dog owners do if you had a dog like mine?
I think of Mochi, if she had not been allowed to practice those types of behaviors then she would really have no chance out there in the wilds of Orlando right now.
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@ayk - I guess that would depend on how much blood, but generally speaking, with adult dogs, if there is blood then it was a fight.
Is it "normal" for dogs or puppies to fight? Well, I don't feel that a dog or puppy should fight more than it plays but I think it would be delusional to say that fighting is alien to a dog.
Dunbar goes by a bite ratio, if the dog has 10 arguments and only 1 ends with injury (blood) then that dog is showing a normal level of self control and bite inhibition, and therefore cannot be called "aggressive". If the dog has 10 arguments and inflicts injury 5 times then that dog is not showing proper bite inhibition and self control, and therefore can be called "aggressive" (or abnormal).
With puppies, since they are still learning bite inhibition, and proper social conduct, I think it is safe to say that you may see blood more often with puppies than in older dogs or adolescents... but, that is where milk teeth come into play, they hurt more but inflict less damage, so the bitee feels the bite faster and the biter respond to the bitee faster and with less damage.
So is it "normal" for puppies to make each other bleed... No, not in my opinion. I wouldn't say its normal, but I wouldn't rush to make some assumption or place some label on either puppy until they had reached maturity.
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@Racie - I don't have an answer for all your questions, unfortunately. I'll say this: I wouldn't blame yourself for his issues. Sure, maybe it would have helped to not allow that behavior, but he still could have ended up a reactive dog. I don't think you failed him, failing him would be dropping him off at a shelter because he is a little reactive... instead you looked for advice from professionals and do your best to give him a wonderful life. That's not failure at all. We all make mistakes (and I'm not saying you made one), its how you deal with the mistakes that count and not the fact that you made the mistake.
The real question is: Do you think Kiba is happy? He sounds happy to me. As long as he is happy then I wouldn't worry about it.
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Jesse
I do see that Shibas develop WAY faster than Akitas, that's for sure! My Akita is SUCH a puppy still at 6 months...they were much more mature at this age.
I would also agree with Brad and others re Kiba. You did everything you could. If Kiba is happy--and sounds like he is--you haven't failed him.
Since losing her puppy teeth, she hasn't drawn any blood, so I am thinking that it was a combination of puppy vigor and sharp puppy teeth. Kratos also has super short and thin fur, so it may have been that Mitsu had to learn that she was biting his skin rather than fuzz. Either way, the tendency hasn't traveled with her into adolescence.
I'll also third the comments about Kiba. I am very confident I've done everything possible to make Joey a happy, comfortable, and well-adjusted dog. Despite my best efforts, he's still an ass, prone to anxiety, and prone to fear. What I keep reminding myself is that he's that way DESPITE all of my socialization and training efforts, not because of them. I think about what he would be like if he hadn't had the benefit of a positive-reinforcement savvy owner and lots of socialization. He would probably be an unmanageable mess. So, @Racie, keep your perspective. Rather than focusing on Kiba's manageable issues as being bad things, think of them as the few remnants of what could have been unmanageable issues. And give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done. :-)
also, I really think people should watch the Shibas eating cabbage video. At the end of the puppy video, if you hold your cursor over the bottom of the screen, it will let you see a bunch of other video options. One is the cabbage one. It is utterly inexplicable!
Lol Shibamistress Bella would join those pups to eat the cabbage in a heart beat she loves veggies, spinach, cabbage, carrots and few others..
Saya hates veggies except for cooked potatoes, cooked sweet potatoes, and cooked carrots..
Don't worry about Kiba you've done your best and I bet Kiba is better thanks to you.
Saya is reactive when she is on leash she's calm when walking near dogs on leash, but doesn't feel good about dog greetings on leash.. Off leash she is great though. I done tons of good socialization with good behaved dogs on leash and off. I'm working with Saya and reading books on this.
Saya cause bites on Bella our white boxer like Mitsu did it was just playful puppy bites and Bella didn't yelp or anything she was to happy to have a constant playmate.
I got pictures of her lips, but can't post for some reason..
this is the cabbage video that shibamistress is talking about for those who are interested =]
Thank you everyone for your encouragement. I think its hard to sometimes to differentiate between the behaviors that we as pet owners can influence and those behaviors that may be unchangeable within our dogs. I read @brada1878 discussion on "the inheritance of aggression in nihonken" and wonder if Kiba's "aggression" is a result of kennel temperament. His dam and sire were both imports from Japan and our breeder kept his dogs in kennels. The kennels were not cruel in anyway, but there definitely was a sense of frustration with his dogs. The puppies were kept in a kennel with the mother and I wonder if that small space increased that frustration between the pups perhaps, causing the increase in "aggression."
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