Adding a Shiba to a Single Shikoku Family
Hello All -
My family and I currently have a single, intact, female Shikoku; Kimi from Akashima, as part of our family. Kimi is amazing; excellent with people and small children, very calm and quiet indoors, energetic and playful outside. Interaction with other dogs...puppies can get away with anything, adult dogs are hit and miss; she either likes them, tail wagging, sniffing, and playful...or she feels the need to posture and dominate (growl, snap, pinch). I have not been able to determine any commonalities in the dogs she disagrees with; guessing something is happening at an instinctual, hormonal level. There are also some dogs that she isn't sure what to do with; the first weiner dog she saw, she went behind me and stayed there, only peeking around my legs at the other dog...hadn't seen that behaviour from her before; found it quite humorous...she will play the agressor with a larger Husky, but hides from a tiny weiner dog...
Anyways; on with the query, we would like to add a Shiba to our group; however, breeders I have discussed this with seem to be of mixed opinions on whether or not this is a good idea. I realize individual dogs have differing personalities, and that there is not a set, correct, or easy answer. I thought I would reach out to our forum members and gather some opinions and experiences; as I know there are several people who have this combination.
I have read the Q&A note on the new club site regarding mixing a Shiba and a Shikoku; it definitely explains some issues to watch for, atleast when introducing adult dogs to one another.
Will I have the same concerns adding a Shiba as a pup?
Will the Shiba consider the Shikoku's 'nosiness' as normal, since it will be introduced to this behaviour as a pup?
Will the Shiba; being substantially smaller, be at any risk from the Shikoku?
I know mice, birds, squirrels, etc are all on Kimi's 'catch' list; as terrible as it is to ask, could a small pup be potentially interpreted as a prey species?
Will a male or female pup have a better chance at successful integration once the 'puppy stage' has passed?
Thoughts?
Mac.
P.S.: We are also discussing the Kai Ken as a potential additional family member. With the Kai being closer in size to the Shikoku, it may be a better choice for our second Nihon Ken.
My family and I currently have a single, intact, female Shikoku; Kimi from Akashima, as part of our family. Kimi is amazing; excellent with people and small children, very calm and quiet indoors, energetic and playful outside. Interaction with other dogs...puppies can get away with anything, adult dogs are hit and miss; she either likes them, tail wagging, sniffing, and playful...or she feels the need to posture and dominate (growl, snap, pinch). I have not been able to determine any commonalities in the dogs she disagrees with; guessing something is happening at an instinctual, hormonal level. There are also some dogs that she isn't sure what to do with; the first weiner dog she saw, she went behind me and stayed there, only peeking around my legs at the other dog...hadn't seen that behaviour from her before; found it quite humorous...she will play the agressor with a larger Husky, but hides from a tiny weiner dog...
Anyways; on with the query, we would like to add a Shiba to our group; however, breeders I have discussed this with seem to be of mixed opinions on whether or not this is a good idea. I realize individual dogs have differing personalities, and that there is not a set, correct, or easy answer. I thought I would reach out to our forum members and gather some opinions and experiences; as I know there are several people who have this combination.
I have read the Q&A note on the new club site regarding mixing a Shiba and a Shikoku; it definitely explains some issues to watch for, atleast when introducing adult dogs to one another.
Will I have the same concerns adding a Shiba as a pup?
Will the Shiba consider the Shikoku's 'nosiness' as normal, since it will be introduced to this behaviour as a pup?
Will the Shiba; being substantially smaller, be at any risk from the Shikoku?
I know mice, birds, squirrels, etc are all on Kimi's 'catch' list; as terrible as it is to ask, could a small pup be potentially interpreted as a prey species?
Will a male or female pup have a better chance at successful integration once the 'puppy stage' has passed?
Thoughts?
Mac.
P.S.: We are also discussing the Kai Ken as a potential additional family member. With the Kai being closer in size to the Shikoku, it may be a better choice for our second Nihon Ken.
Comments
Huskies can also be a bit rude to other dogs, yet not as rude as a shika can be, but I've found that my guys have gotten along pretty well. We got Tetsu and Tikaani at around the same time, so they both grew up together. Cause of this, Tetsu is very tolerant of Tikaani's rudeness and rough play. Sometimes he will correct Tikaani when not in the mood to play, but it wasn't more than Tetsu biting Tikaani's cheek (never breaking the skin)and making a weird growl/whine noise.
I think that so long as Kimi doesn't react too harshly with the pup, and lots of initial supervision and intervention on your part, adding a shiba to a shikoku's home may not be as bad as vice versa. The shiba would grow up used to the way Kimi is and may be more tolerant of it, just as Tetsu has been more tolerant of Tikaani's rough play.
One of my main concerns for you would be your Shiba puppy growing up and "learning" play and interaction intensity with other dogs from your Shikoku...which would be way more intense than what most dogs would like. I have had to opt to take my two to play in the large breed section of dog parks simply because yapping purse dogs cannot handle the Shikoku's physical style of in-your-face play.
I personally don't think your Shiba will be considered prey by your Shikoku. If anything, they are going to enjoy having a playmate. If you are really interested in getting a Shiba, just try to control the intensity of their play sessions to a dull roar.
Jesse
~liz
From all of the reading I have done on this board it seems like female Shikoku's are much more intense than the males. My guy is very mellow, especially inside.
@Calia - If we decide to go the Shiba route; we will definitely opt for heavy supervision initially, and it is my hope that growing up with a Shikoku will make this particular Shiba more tolerant of the behavioural differences. I will also see if the breeder will accept the puppy back, should the two just not get along, for whatever reason.
@CrimsonO2 - Never having experienced Shibas at play; I wouldn't know the difference.
@lyzk - Thanks for the tip on adding a male; whether we go Shiba or Kai, will keep that choice in mind. Mellow is good; especially when we already have a pair of two legged monsters running around the house.
@hondru - Are the Kai more easy going than other Nihon Ken in general? Make sure you keep us up to date on your upcoming Kai; I am sure all of us will be anxious to see pictures, videos, etc of the new pup and how it interacts with your Shikoku. It sounds like we may be the first to start with a Shikoku and add a Shiba; so if we do go the Shiba route, I will be sure to document the experience...who knows, maybe the Shiba would end up more like a 'mini-Shikoku'. Work doesn't scare us; with plans to start a Nihon Ken breeding program over the next few years, we will need to gain as much experience with the different breeds as possible. I would like our focus to be on the Shikoku; and we want a second breed, but have not yet made a decision. I have talked to Brad a bit about the Kai; as well as several Shiba breeders. Shiba's; being much more prevalent in NA, are far easier to aquire, and the bloodline diversity is greater. That being said; Brad's site has some great examples of Kai's, and I have to admit, seeing Ayu and Nio, even just online, has increased my level of interest in the breed substantially. With all the recent happenings in Japan, I have not wanted to bother Shigeru with any questions regarding Shikoku or Kai bloodlines, availability for import, etc. I am content to research online; sift the forums, and pester Brad (hopefully not too much).
@downright - I am happy to hear that your Shiba can keep your Shikoku in line; atleast for now, leaves me hope that there is a decent chance at mixing the two breeds safely. One breeder suggested picking a Shiba that deferred to his or her litter mates; with the expectation that the new pup would be more likely to back off, than cause an issue. My personal preferences have me leaning towards animals with a bit of spirit; however, I recognize the fact that this is not always a good thing, and if one always chooses the dominant members of a given species, the frequency of arguments in hierarchy would drastically increase.
More comments are always welcome; and regardless of which way we go, I will keep the forum members up to date...and who knows, maybe we will end up with a Shikoku, a Shiba and a Kai... *8-D
As for pestering Brad - I'd bet a pretty penny that he gets pestered by a lot of people. I know I pester him, lol.
If Kimi is from Katja, she will have had some good Shiba exposure already. I would go with adding a puppy. They can be really irritating to older dogs, but I think that's the best chance for teaching the puppy good rules of engagement.
Many of the reputable Shiba breeders in the US made their pilgrimages to Japan 10- 20 years ago. The shikoku they saw were kennel dogs, shown Nippo style (pitted dog to dog), confined, very reactive, and probably not well socialized with other people or other dogs. I don't know if that's much different now, hope it is, but several of the Shiba breeders who recently went to Japan have mentioned the Shikoku they saw at shows were nearly unapproachable and very reactive.
This obviously effects what they go on to recommend to their potential Shiba buyers, but it is not done out of prejudice for the Shikoku breed. There is no question that Shikoku are beautiful dogs and they are greatly admired by many Shiba breeders, as are the other NK, but, knowing how badly some people do with their Shibas, I totally see how hard it would be for someone to recommend an equally or more reactive dog to the average Shiba pet owner based on what they have seen first hand with BOTH breeds, and vice-versa.
The story would be the same if Shikoku had made it here first instead of Shiba, but there happened to be more Shiba in Japan so that's what the earlier fanciers ended up comming home with. The main issue with Shiba is that some really do not back down (like in any breed I suppose), and a larger dog could seriously injure them, even if as in most cases I admit, the Shiba started it. So if you go that route, ask the breeder to pair you with a softer, yielding dog, or just be very on top of managment.
If I was a Shiba breeder
Some Shikoku can be okay with Shibas (like my male). My female I do not think would be quite as good with a Shiba. She is relentless. I agree with @downright - that a male might be a better fit. My male shikoku plays rough, but not as "nippy" during play as my female.
Here are some shikoku + shiba videos. My male is intact and this was his yard, but he did okay with all the shibas.
I believe Kimi is Ronan's & Tenji's sister, which would make her about 6 months younger than Ahi. Ahi was HORRIBLE with dogs when she was young, especially Shiba, but she has calmed down a lot since she turned 3 years old.
Most of the reports on the forum are from owners of dogs younger than 3 years old. Loa too is 3 years old now, and she has calmed a lot as well.
Point is, Kimi is older, and as long as she has no associative negativity toward Shiba, I think she would probably do ok with either breed as long as they were introduced as a pup.
But, if she has had a fight with a Shiba in the past, then I wouldn't push it. Ahi has had fights with several Shiba in the past - now, if she sees a Shiba, she basically starts to salivate. We never allow Ahi to interact with Shiba now (excluding our Shiba, of course).
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@hondru - If Kai get along better with other NK, they may be the better choice as a secondary breed for our upcoming project.
@Calia - Great videos; definitely a little intense, though at no time did it appear it was progressing beyond play. I had my wife watch; she was surprised by the growling, biting, etc and thought they were fighting. She has only experienced smaller, lap type dogs in the past, and did not believe my stories of how some pups play.
@tjbart17 -
@lindsayt - Kimi is from Katja; not sure how often the Shikoku's and Shiba's play together at her kennel, but she has definitely been around them before. Thanks for the perspective on Nippo vs NA styles; it gives me a good idea on where some of the Shiba breeders may be coming from. Another vote for the Kai as well; as a mix for either of the other two...something tells me we may eventually have all three.
@Edgewood - Thank you for the videos; your Shikoku did great with those Shibas, a lot less intensity than I was expecting...more hope for a peaceful, playful, future. I have only seen one Shiba here in town; and that one we ran into it at the vet. Kimi perked up and wagged her tail; so she recognized the breed as something familiar, but they were never closer than three feet or so, as we were in the waiting area and the Shiba was on the way out. NK of any sort are uncommon up here. We see a lot more of the common domestic breeds; shepherds, huskies, collies, labs, etc. Another vote for a male pup; will keep that in mind as well.
@brada1878 - Thanks for the input; considering the wide variety of NK and other breeds you have living together, it means a lot. Kimi is 4.5yrs old...today; not sure who her litter mates were, but she is a lot easier to deal with than any of my male huskies were back in the day. I'm not sure if she has any negativity toward the Shiba, certainly nothing that I am aware of. Katja seemed to think she would be fine if a puppy was added. Based on how she handles meets with puppies of differing shapes and sizes that we run into, I think she would be alright; never questioned that until I started asking different Shiba breeders, and they raised concerns as soon as they heard 'Shikoku'. Kimi has let a great dane pup wander over and lick her face; though she did snap in the air after a minute or so to say she had had enough, the pup just stopped licking and they went back to sniffing. The two adult danes with him? One she let come up and sniff, the other she growled, and he went back to his owner...so again, hit and miss. She has had some minor playtime with a german shepherd pup, and a beagle pup; though not freeplay, just some minor sniffing, wagging, jumping and barking etc while on the leash when we met the others on a walk. I realize on and off leash behaviour can be substantially different, point being, she has tolerated every puppy we have met; but none of them, aside from the ~7month old Beagle, have really been what I would consider small.
All in all, it sounds like I would be fine with a Shiba or a Kai; though the Kai may be an easier path, both in the long term, and at introduction. I am already warming to the idea of all three... Regardless; should we go with a Shiba, I will see if the kennel would let a pup go an a temporary ~2 week trial basis, with an option to return it for an alternate family placement, if it became obvious the two were not going to get along. Based on the environment we have here; with plenty of love, excercise, supervision, and attention from all four of us, I do not forsee any difficulty. Oh; and Brad, keep me in the loop on upcoming Kai litters, as mentioned in an email, one may be in our near future.
She's a royal brat if she thinks she can get away with it (smacking other dogs in the face, taking things from their mouths) but will make submissive gestures if she feels that other dogs are serious or are actually getting angry. It's been interesting to watch her make those assessments (which she has done since a puppy) though admittedly it is sometimes alarming to watch her saunter up to another dog and casually grab a hold of whatever is in their mouth and yank it out, or paw something out from underneath of them. Overall though, we've found that she is far better at reading the signals from another dog than we have ever been and she communicates pretty clearly too. You don't need to get a submissive shiba (or one that tends to defer, since mine certainly doesn't) to get a tolerant one.
I think a lot of problems improve around 2-3 years of age. Which is why it's so tragic that so many dogs get abandoned and killed before then, because people really just need to give their dogs a chance to mature. Anyway, that's off topic.
That said, if you get a puppy, the odds are good that they'll get along. Granted that's not what happened to me, but I still have to think my situation is uncommon. (I added a Shiba puppy and she was fine with my male Shiba, who is a year older, for about 2 years. Then all hell broke out and she nearly killed him--he wouldn't back down, and neither would she, and he got very hurt).
regarding the trial basis of a pup, I suspect you'll have a hard time convincing a breeder to do that. I had a very hard time even finding a breeder who was willing to sell me an Akita once they knew I had Shibas. If you suggest a trial run, they'll think your dog is particularly problematic (or I would).
so much depends on individual dogs and how well you are able to manage them. We can give advice or relate experiences, but it will really depend on the dogs. Certainly a lot of people thought I was crazy to get an Akita with my reactive Shibas, but it's been fine (though I do have to keep Toby separate from the other dogs, but I had to do that before, so....). I did spend a lot of time talking to breeders about temperament (and sometimes convincing them I could make this work!), though, to find a dog that would like fit, and I'm sure you'll do the same.
Keep us posted!