Hip question?

I've been noticing these past few days that Miyu's hip pops, mainly on the left side. She is almost 8 months old, and is pretty active with full force wrestling against Tikaani. Is she old enough for this popping to be cause of concern for HD, or do you guys think that there is a sliver of a chance that it could be from something else? After work today, I'm going to schedule a vet appointment for her just to check it out.

Comments

  • edited May 2011
    Are you sure it's her hip or is it may be her knee?
    Do you see it pop or just hear a "pop" like sound?
    Does she stretch her leg and kick it out?

    At her age, I wouldn't be too concerned just yet (unless it is a frequent daily occurence). However, if it makes you uncomfortable...for your sanity it wouldn't hurt to go get her "checked out".
  • @ShikokuSpirit -It is the hip as I can feel the joint pop in and out, or at least not move smoothly, when I place my hand on her side and manipulate her leg. Her joints have yet to make a sound. She does not complain when I touch her hips or legs, and gives no issue to sits, downs, stands, or bows on command.

    She has done a "mule kick" once or twice, which is usually followed by her sitting down and lazily scratching her side with the same foot. I at first thought these kicks were from her knees, but they feel a lot tighter than both of Tikaani's knees (who has LP).
  • I don't know enough to know what this is, but I have to admit it doesn't sound right. I hope it's something easy. Sorry you have to deal with this and keep us posted!
  • Are you planning on having her go under for speutering or the mutant nail thingy yet? If you do, maybe it's worth it to get x-rays done and do it all in one anesthesia dose? Hopefully that sheds light on the popping you are feeling/experiencing?

    Jesse
  • Hmm, I dunno about the hip popping. Conker's joints popped a little when he was younger... He's got LP now. I'd keep a good eye on it and get some x-rays done eventually to see if it's HD or not. It might just be from growing but I'm no expert.
  • @Crimson02 -That's a good idea, I'm just waiting on her to go into heat first. I plan to give her one heat and get her spayed about a month after it ends. I wonder if the vet would be willing to add in the x-ray with it, something I'll have to ask
  • edited May 2011
    ( @calia @crimsonO2 )

    If she doesn't seem to be in any pain, just keep an eye on it. Wait it out and see how she develops. *I almost feel like you should give her supplements for it though. I mean...it's possible for her to have HD but not be reactive/responsive towards it now since she is still puppy.

    Have you talked to your vet yet? You should probably at least call and do a phone conference with your vet to find out what s/he recommends.*

    Also, you know you can get x-rays without any anesthesia, right? I never put my dogs under for x-rays. If she is gonna be under it anyways for the spaying, then yeah...might as well get it done. Otherwise, I believe it to be unnecessary. FYI.
  • edited May 2011
    ShikokuSpirit - when checking the hips, don't they have to put the dog in a very uncomfortable position? I was always told that it was better for the dog to be put under when getting hips check (also would give a more accurate x-ray for checking for HD)!!?? Would love your insight.
  • We're talking about two different possibilities here. Putting the dog in position for HD is indeed uncomfortable for most dogs thus why it's better that they be under anesthesia. However, as an exploratory x-ray, Corina is right that the dogs likely don't need to be put under just to see what's going on. I do agree with her that supplements (like glucosamine) would help but I've never been comfortable with guessing when there's an avenue for a bit more insight and clarity.

    Also, what I've been told by my vet is that most cases of HD is near correctible when caught within the 1st year of a puppy's life. So, even though I neutered my Shiba, I asked for HD-like x-rays. I also did the same for my Shikoku when she went under for her rear dew-claw removal. Both showed relatively healthy and well-seated hip joints.

    Jesse
  • So I found out that the vet I like no longer works at the clinic I was going to, and they won't tell me where they went. The other vet that works there I really don't care for or trust their advice, so it looks like I'll be doing so vet searching. I'm checking in with other people I know that live by me to see who they go to and like. There was a great vet I took Tikaani to for a 3rd opinion on knee surgery, but she's only open when I work and I'm not going to get another day off.

    I've been giving everyone Glucosamine once I started Tikaani on it.

    Here's an interesting thought that a trainer had brought up, that Miyu's popping could be caused by her approaching heat. That the body can sometimes lose it's tightness, which I can kind of see since my body craps out during hormone changes as well. Anyone else heard of a heat causing the body to be "loose"?
  • edited May 2011
    Interestingly enough, there's apparently a well renowned holistic vet 15 minutes away from me.

    EDIT: Made an appointment with this vet for tomorrow at 9. I'm amazed that they are open on a Sunday (and a holiday at that), and the receptionist sounded very nice and friendly. And she said that if it felt serious enough, they would do an x-ray without sedation during the appointment just to get a better look.
  • I am a little late to this, but hopefully it is just hormones causing her body to loosen up. I have heard of this with people, so I am going to assume it can translate to dogs as well.

    But as for the new vet... I am impressed that they are open on a Sunday. I would love to find a vet open for more than a couple of hours on a Saturday, much less a Sunday! (With Nola's accident-prone-ness, having a vet open on weekends could come in handy!)

    Hopefully all will go well tomorrow and Miyu will get a clean bill of health.

    Also, out of curiosity, why do you feel it is important for her to go through one heat cycle before spaying? (I am not being judgmental, I promise, I am honestly curious.) Is it to ensure that she is hormonally mature? Or does going through a heat cycle help with closing growth plates? Sorry to kind of bombard you, but I know the debate over early spay versus later spay, but it is great to get reasoning from people that you know and trust to put their pets health first.
  • Good luck, I hope it's nothing serious. I would say given that some of the Shikoku here seem to be troubled with joint issues/accidents, letting her go thru a heat cycle isn't a bad idea, and some extra mental maturition time in a young dog cant hurt either. Either way, heats aren't so bad as long as you don't have any intact males at the same house.
  • edited May 2011
    @JennAB

    Jenn, the vet clinic I've been going to uses digital x-rays and they've come out clearly. These x-rays are the very same ones that get sent into OFA for prelims and/or finals. I've never been allowed to go into the back area so I'm not sure how they do it. The dogs seem just fine. Lynx especially...I sent her in WITH a muzzle and was very surprised when the vet staff brought her out WITHOUT a muzzle! So it couldn't have been that bad of an experience at all -shrugs-.


    * @Calia

    All the best to Miyu!*
  • Good luck to you guys tomorrow. I really hope it's the joints just loosening because of the hormonal changes.
  • ShikokuSpirit - Definitely worth it not having to put them under. My vets always put the dogs under when they do their hips. They highly recommended it. I am glad to hear that it isn't necessary and I guess not too discomforting the dog. :o)

    Calia - I hope Miyu is okay and nothing too serious. Keep us posted on how the vet check goes.
  • Hope everything goes well with Miyu.

    Sending happy thoughts your way.
  • @sunyayta -LoL Casey, I know you're not being judgemental and can understand your curiousity. It is always great to learn and understand why others do what they do.

    From what I've been hearing and reading, there seem to be a lot of benefits to letting them have at least one heat. The biggest argument I saw for getting her spayed before 6 months was chances of breast cancer. Supposedly if spayed before first heat the chances of breast cancer is 1%, after first heat 8% and after second heat about 25%. 8% is still pretty good odds, so I figure having one isn't going to hurt.

    I remember hearing that a spay is harder, on both surgeon and dog, once they have had a heat due to the uterus stretching. But I've read that you can get just the ovaries removed, which is supposed to have less complications than getting everything removed. So if I can convince a vet to remove just the ovaries, it should reduce any complications (such as bladder incontinence).
  • Is pyo still an issue in a dog with ovaries only removed?
  • edited May 2011
    @lindsayt -From what I heard, the majority of uterine diseases are caused by the hormones released from the ovaries and that once the ovaries are gone the uterus basically becomes inert. I'm still researching the pluses and minuses to it though.


    So basically I'm just being over worried fur-mom as the vet sees nothing wrong with her. he said that she has very good range of motion and her knees feel firm. The vet was very nice and answered all my silly questions. So at the very least, we found a new vet in all of this. Funny thing is, what really sold Tom was all the solar panels on their roof.

    EDIT to add this study:
    http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=81&t=

    "Okkens, A.C., H.S. Kooistra, and R.F. Nickel. (1997). Comparison of long-term effects of ovariectomy versus ovariohysterectomy in bitches. In: Proceedings of Reproduction in dogs, cats, and exotic carnivores proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Canine and Feline Reproduction, Veldhoven, The Netherlands, P.W. Concannon, G.C. England, A. Rijnberk, J.P. Verstegen, and C. Doberska (editors), Journal of Reproduction & Fertility: Cambridge, U.K., Vol. 51, p. 227-231. ISBN: 0906545315.
    NAL Call Number: 442.8 J8222 Suppl.

    Abstract: Although ovariectomy is less invasive and less time-consuming than ovariohysterectomy, most surgical textbooks recommend ovariohysterectomy for routine neutering of bitches. This advice is probably based on concerns about the development of uterine disease after ovariectomy. However, there is no evidence that conditions such as cystic endometrial hyperplasia (CEH)-endometritis develop in the ovariectomized bitch, unless progestagens are administered. The purpose of this study was therefore to compare the long-term effects of ovariectomy and ovariohysterectomy, including the incidence of urinary incontinence. Questionnaires were sent to 264 owners of bitches, in which ovariectomy (126) or ovariohysterectomy (138) had been performed as a routine neutering procedure 8-11 years earlier. Complete data were available for 69 bitches of the ovariectomy group and for 66 bitches from the ovariohysterectomy group. There were no indications that endometritis had developed in bitches of the ovariectomy group. None of the bitches was sexually attractive to male dogs after neutering. The occurrence of a clear to white vaginal discharge was reported in two bitches of each group, but none of these four bitches appeared to be ill during the periods when the discharge was present. Furthermore, with the exception of urinary incontinence, no problems were reported that could be related to the surgical neutering. Six of the ovariectomized bitches and nine of the ovariohysterectomized bitches eventually developed urinary incontinence. Of these 15 bitches (11%), 12 weighed more than 20 kg. Bouvier des Flandres bitches were at a higher risk of developing urinary incontinence than were those of the other breeds. The possibility that the urinary incontinence was due at least in part to other conditions must be considered, since eight of the bitches were 9 years or older before urinary incontinence occurred and seven of the incontinent bitches also had polyuria or polydipsia. There were no significant differences in the incidence of urogenital problems listed above between the bitches of the ovariectomy and ovariohysterectomy group. It is hypothesized that a uterine disease such as CEH-endometritis cannot develop after complete ovariectomy, unless progestagens are administered. The results of this study indicate that ovariectomy does not increase the risk of CEH-endometritis or other complications in comparison with ovariohysterectomy. It is concluded that there is no indication for removing the uterus during routine neutering in healthy bitches. On the contrary, ovariectomy should be considered the procedure of choice."
  • Very interesting, thanks for sharing that. My friend who has Tervs opted for the ovariectomy on her girl, and the surgeon went in thru the side making just a very tiny incision. It's best approach if they are thin I guess. No incontinence issues reported, but I do know that forcable emptying of the bladder during surgical prep may result in increase of incontinence later. The bladder is squeezed like an orange so it empties and doesn't get in the way of the OVH. I get around that by simply walking the girl until she pees before prepping her for surgery. So, I would ask your vet to be mindful of that if they will. Glad her little legs are ok!
  • Always best to ere on the "safe" side then have a broken or dead dog =]. It's okay to be overcautious with potential health issues or risks, worse case senario...you spend way too much money but at least you are at ease knowing that your dog is healthy!
  • I'm late to this, sorry. I have seen hip-popping in a few of our young dogs over the years and been worried by it... then done xrays and found nothing. So, I have started to discount the popping.

    Then, of the dogs we have owned who did have HD, I never saw popping! So, I guess that says something too.

    I'm glad she is ok.

    Oh, about the heat comment by the trainer, that's a good point. Estrus does make the joints on a dog looser. Same with lactation - Masha pulled her ACL when she was nursing her first heat, she did it jumping down from the couch!

    ----
  • yes, when I was taking one of my vet tech classes, they said pyro was caused by hormones released from the ovaries. They also said that the entire removal (done in normal spays) was unnecessary, but was what most vets knew to do. The class was taught by a Canadian vet--I can't remember if we had the exact article above linked, but he did have some linked that prove this point.

    Anyway, glad to hear her hips look ok.
  • Glad her legs are okay :)
  • @Calia - Thanks for the info. Interesting about the breast cancer percentages jumping so high after a second heat.

    I am glad that Miyu is fine. And I am so glad that you like the new vet. Finding a vet that listens and takes the time with you is pretty rare these days. I know when I found my new vet I was ecstatic!
  • Dogs sure like to make us paranoid, don't they?
  • Furthermore, with the exception of urinary incontinence, no problems were reported that could be related to the surgical neutering. Six of the ovariectomized bitches and nine of the ovariohysterectomized bitches eventually developed urinary incontinence. Of these 15 bitches (11%), 12 weighed more than 20 kg. Bouvier des Flandres bitches were at a higher risk of developing urinary incontinence than were those of the other breeds. The possibility that the urinary incontinence was due at least in part to other conditions must be considered, since eight of the bitches were 9 years or older before urinary incontinence occurred and seven of the incontinent bitches also had polyuria or polydipsia.
    Reilly became incontinent (leaky) starting months after her spay (at the shelter, 8 weeks old), so based on some of this, the spay *is* likely the reason.
    No incontinence issues reported, but I do know that forcable emptying of the bladder during surgical prep may result in increase of incontinence later. The bladder is squeezed like an orange so it empties and doesn't get in the way of the OVH. I get around that by simply walking the girl until she pees before prepping her for surgery. So, I would ask your vet to be mindful of that if they will.
    Gah! I'm horrified! I'm irate that they may have done this to Rei... >:(
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