Muzzles
another topic i'm interested in ...
i'd like to know how members here feel about muzzles and how they use them if they do, etc
Q1 if you don't why ?
Q2 if you do what kind ? (specifics plse)
Q3 if you do how did you condition the dog ? (ditto)
Q4 if you do, when do you use them (ditto)
i'd like to know how members here feel about muzzles and how they use them if they do, etc
Q1 if you don't why ?
Q2 if you do what kind ? (specifics plse)
Q3 if you do how did you condition the dog ? (ditto)
Q4 if you do, when do you use them (ditto)
Comments
Other than that my dogs are friendly with other known people and kids so never had the need for it.
Q1 if you don't why ?
>> To make other people more comfortable to to send a message to people to not come up and huge our dogs even if they look like big teddy bears.
Q2 if you do what kind ? (specifics plse)
>> A wire basket muzzle like so: http://www.dogmuzzle.com/wirbasdogmuz4.html
Q3 if you do how did you condition the dog ? (ditto)
>> We put it on them in the house and let them get used to it, then we would feed them through it. Only putting it on when good things were happening (food). Then we did the same in the car, and then in public.
Q4 if you do, when do you use them (ditto)
>> When we take them into a public place where we know they will need to be handled by strangers.
Keep in mind, these are working Livestock Stock Guard Dogs, not pets.
----
The next vet visit, she had her checkup and she was due for shots. The shot pissed her off, and she went to nip at the vet tech. Since then I muzzle her when she's getting her boosters. I also put it on her last time I took her down to get her claws grinded down. The little stinker uses them to climb trees.
To condition her, I put it on her while laying with me on the couch. I let her lick liverwurst from a spoon. Then when we went to the vet, I put it on her in the waiting room with peanut butter. Now when she sees it, she runs to the pantry for peanut butter. She really never cared about it. I would NEVER let anyone else put it on her though. My mom can't even do it, she freaks out on her.
i usually use jafcos since i can modify them easily
- the cloth type are restrictive and come off
- only applying them in duress situations like at the vet totally reinforces the WRONG behavior you are striving for
- they are very effective visual deterrents to keep people away from a FEARFUL or timid dog when you are out in public. MUCH better than a don't pet harness or vest which makes the average person feel exactly what you don't want and make them approach thinking you are training a nice service dog. great way to give your dog extra space and boost their confidence level MUCH faster
- should always be conditioned slowly and in small steps using OC markers (treats and verbal praise) :
1. using your hands as a muzzle, muzzle your dog and wait for EC or calming signs....mark...do may reps until you can hold your hands in your muzzle shape and the dog will put their muzzle in on their own
2. with real muzzle in sight do EC drills and treat bringing the muzzle closer each set of reps until the dog never looks at it
3. do EC drills but place the treat IN the muzzle and do reps to have the dog dig the treat out of the muzzle when you mark
(keep the straps back and out of the way
4. after getting thru your schedule and u are at the random reinforcement level start doing reps that will require the dog to put their face in it and allow u to take your hands off without them shaking it off
(at this level you've already opened it up more to make it easier to pass a treat thru it)
5. do reps with the muzzle on unstrapped - take your hands off and build up duration
7. back off from the dog and have them take a couple of steps to put their muzzle inside
8. start attaching the straps, back off and mark a few seconds of calm wearing w/ no shaking
9 do simple OB drills with them wearing it
10 teach them how to drink water from it
11. start going for walks
12 proof it with having strangers treat your dog in muzzle and you have done your job successfully
13 use it every now and then to keep the behavior NON reactive
lots of common sense ways to use them for aggression problems but rarely thought of by the many owners who can benefit from using them in public and think they are vet aids :-(
- my steps have been developed over the years and work for me.....have NEVER had a dog that couldn't be conditioned this way ....you may think i'm too nit picky with the details :-) ....ymmv :-)
I've tried to use a muzzle on Bel (Shiba) in the early days after her fight with Toby (also a Shiba...she nearly killed him), because I thought I might be able to eventually condition them to be together without aggression. Honestly, at that time I didn't have much of a thought out plan for it. But it never worked, not because of the lack of planning, but because I could never find a muzzle that she couldn't easily get off. There's something about her head/muzzle shape that meant none of them really fit. It was quite frustrating, so I gave it up. Equipment failure!
That said, my dogs are muzzled at the vet sometimes, but not by me, and not with a real muzzle. My vet routinely ties their muzzles with a piece of soft gauze if we're working on their teeth or nails or something that else that will get them all riled up (mostly Toby). Bel has only had to have it when we were cleaning wounds, and even then I'm not sure it was necessary, but more a precaution.
re: "useful for training dogs to tolerate a head collar." of course !! IF you develop a step by step plane IN ADVANCE, be able to adapt it as you go; operantly.....if you don't know ow to mark as you go and never proof it you are just depending on the luck that the dog will get it regardless of what you're doing...some do; some don't :-)
- but everyone who doesn't break behaviors down into chains goes to fast in any training plan
re: "But it never worked, not because of the lack of planning, but because I could never find a muzzle that she couldn't easily get off"
- haven't reviewed your plan so no comment on that, but he second part shouldn't have happened. there are muzzles that will fit any shape head on the planet. eithr you didn't know how to measure your dog in the correct places to decide on the size or it was simply a poor quality muzzle. the only breed i ever had even the slightest problem were the mini BT's....plenty to choose from for the standard size bullies, but had to do some digging to get one for the smaller "egg heads" :-)
re: "vet routinely......" well, a vet can't do much teeth work if the muzzle is secured :-) but doing that just stresses a dog and is what is said it is a bad thing to do....if a dog is dangerous it needs to be under anesthesia; most aren't in that category, and what that vet did is no different than putting on a straight jacket on a human, and if it truly is NOT needed (you should have made that call not the vet) than it shouldn't have been done, vets have gloves if they need them and very few vets know how to handle a stressed dog except to restrain em or knock em out. i am my dogs advocate whether it's mine or a customers. if you have basic people skills and can truly read your dog, any good vet will allow you to handle it your way
D/C for vet office visits is VERY doable but takes more time and patience than some owners have - vets DEFINITELY don't care about correcting behaviors they get paid to work fast without being bitten and will quickly OVER restrain a dog cause it isn't theirs :-)
the bully i mentioned was a strong biter....that dog had more jaw pressure than some gsd's that have tagged me...when i took it in to be evaluated for a limp right away the vet had his assistants bringing in the blanket wrap and crappy muzzle...calmy told them to wait...15 min later i had the dog taking treats from the vet and the exam was done with no restraints of any kind including no muzzle.....if a vet doesn't have that kind of time i walk out...too many to choose from and they make good money
- any dog that has vet phobias needs a LOT of vet visits....for checking nothing :-).....that's a no brainer....everyone knows this...few actually do it.....put in the time or make your vet visits stress time for your dog...choose one :-)
- i've even paid vets for real bad cases that required some assistance when i was there.....never had my yen refused yet :-)
- i spend a lot of my training time in vet offices since i have a lot of those cases too.....not that hard to get on good terms with a vet if done with tact and a smile :-)
hope this helps a bit and gives you a few more options to consider
they WANT to stick their head in that muzzle !!
re: "I didn't do anything special to get her used to it"
that is precisely why she "puts up with it" rather than likes it ;-)
you can always start back from the beginning and do it over if you want your dog to accept it willingly rather than just "put up with it"
i'm sure you have never had an extended play session with her in that muzzle
- btw, why does the vet "always muzzle her" ? it's their policy and you have no say in the matter ?
i truly understand that a lot of dogs have trouble with muzzles....that's why i spent the time to explain a way that i have had success with for maybe 50 odd dogs ... if it works well for that many why not try it with yours ?? ... or am i trying to use too much pressure on you to "try it my way" ?? really curious
unfortunately putting it on and giving her treats is not exactly using OC effectively .... more planning and more reps/sets equals a stronger finished behavior since every one is successful and you are monitoring progress as it goes
- probably a time and patience factor versus how much the behavior is thought to be needed or used (not that many vet trips).....i can see that also, but any successful behavior feeds and acts synergistically to create a better dog in other areas too....any socializing success that decreases any area of reactivity for a dog has the effect of building confidence ... you don't target reactivity for a reactive dog.....you build confidence that replaces it....one piece at a time
you have a reactive dog - definitely in your vet's eyes, and probably your own. don't accept it, please work on it. costs zero and can be done at home for the most part
anyway, if i apply any more pressure you'll resist that much more ... sounds like i'm being a motivational trainer here, not a dog trainer :-))))))
so do what u think is right...it's your dog after all
They always muzzle her when she growls at them. She's good for routine things like vaccines and exams, but anything more than that, she doesn't like. Also, she'll snap at you when you clip her nails. When I first got her, she'd bite pretty hard, and now it's better, but at the vet, they just muzzle rather than risk anything.
Not quite the same thing, but this is actually the reason why we put a head halter on Tikaani during walks, as most people don't realize it isn't a muzzle and keep their distance as if it was. Tikaani actually loves people, Tetsu though doesn't much appreciate people running out of nowhere screaming "I WANT TO PET YOUR DOG!". Putting it on Tetsu didn't discourage this, but having a "big bad wolf" wearing it did. People would actually walk across the street to avoid us, and those who wanted to pet one of the dogs would approach slowly and ask if they can from a distance.
I realize that head halters aren't muzzles, and shouldn't be used as such, but they they do offer the benefits of keeping people away when you don't want to deal with them. We didn't go for a real muzzle as we wanted him to be able to defend himself should anything happen.
Re: vet. actually, the way my vet closes their mouths with gauze, they can do what they need to do on the teeth just fine. They just pull up the lips and go over the teeth for a quick cleaning. My dogs are raw fed and have very clean teeth anyway....it takes about 5 minutes if that, and personally, I'd rather go with this than have the dogs put under, as some people do for cleaning. The dogs don't like it but it is over quick. And Toby spent 6 weeks at this vet, so he is very familiar with them, and is generally a good patient. He was patient even with some pretty nasty wound cleaning that had to happen twice a day during those 6 weeks, and they didn't muzzle him then. But he does not like his feet touched, and he doesn't like to get wet, and he did bite the vet tech when she had to bathe him. So now, they muzzle him for the teeth and feet, and while yes, there may be other ways to handle it, I'm ok with them doing this for the brief period of time it has to happen. And it's usually only twice a year.
if they get enough bone in the diet they rarely need much more but i do use a brush and some TP (think its CETA type malt or PB flavor) - mostly just to keep the gums tight....among the many other benefits of raw, it has eliminated my vet visits for teeth cleaning. but can't visualize how a vet gets the inside of teeth when the mouth is gauzed shut....paw handling, bathing....and other handling sensitivities .. the list goes on....the treatment to D/C is the same in my book....whenever i see a dog whose first reaction is to back off when someone reaches out to it, it is always just hiding other problems that will rise to the surface when evaluated further. i can provide the same type of OC plans for all these problems that i have used successfully, whether it was a shiba, BT or gsd. operant conditioning is not breed specific
* i have read hundreds of archived posts and am starting to see a repeating "theme" that owners accept these issues as if they are part of the NK breed "unique" temperament and live with it, and that the occasional "accidents" are inevitable.....TOO many anthropomorphic reasons, barriers put up, use of restraints and other attempts to "manage" the problems rather than deal with them one by one, one step at a time. to me this is sad and wrong.....hate to bring up the "L" word again, but when i say patience i mean it in all CAPS - not just the "P" :-)
i don't have a chance to see all the NK breeds here, and the mixes far outnumber the purebreds, but i have seen some great shibas and akitas and kishu kens as well as a few Tosas over here that do not have a shy timid bone in their body. regardless of size, they stand tall and confident and can be handled EASILY by strangers as well as by their owners
maybe coincidental, but many of the shy timid dogs i deal with are also owned by shy timid people.....i have often felt they might be reinforcing each other without knowing it
Bottom line? I don't want to lose a dog. Management works for me.
As for timid dogs, it is a problem, particularly with the poorly bred Shibas. Shibas are getting too popular here, and thee is a lot of careless breeding.
It might be a good point to make that, unfortunately, most of us can't dedicate our lives and especially our livelihoods to our dogs. I'm reticent to guess at a percentage, but I would assume that a large number of people in the states work away from home, and also have other commitments outside of work and pet ownership as well. Managing a problem instead of solving it isn't a matter of laziness per se, it may simply be a matter of available time and resources. And if it ain't broke, there may not be an interest in fixing a relatively unimportant problem.
FWIW, I also expect my dogs to act a little like dogs. I don't expect them to listen to me all the time, and it's never been a goal of mine to have perfect obedience or temperament. I think the anthropomorphising comes when a human expects the dog to behave the way the human would in the same situation. For the average pet owner without a working dog, the dog spends most of it's time doing whatever it wants and not obeying or behaving under the command of a human. They're dogs. To me, they are supposed to do dog things. It's not the end of the world if they're goofing off doing things that are purely fun for a dog, even if it's not what I'd prefer them to do. It's also not the end of the world if they don't behave well with other dogs, as I'm not the kind of person who behaves well with every other person I meet.
@hdrsmit And, as a personal note, let me be the first to say that you are NOT clearly understood by me. In speaking, I'm sure your very easy to understand, but your personal writing style (and this is a forum with only writing without inflection, after all) is very hard for me to follow. Specifically, the lack of traditional sentence structure, punctuation and capitalization make it hard to follow your thoughts. Also, the use of acronyms (OG, OC, EC, D/C) makes it confusing because those are not ready knowledge for me. Just my $0.02.
OC - operant conditioning - if u read many of my posts you would see i've defined that one :-)
EC - eye contact
D/C - desensitizing and counter conditioning - not an acronym i made up as you will notice if you have read CC (Culture Clash)
read as if i'm talking to you and maybe that will be easier....for those i train online, none have ever had a problem and all say i communicate clearly when writing in cyberspace....no i don't capitalize my sentences....
if you were reading my muzzle post i find it hard not to have gotten one of my points that they are useful training tools and should not necessarily be considered something you reach for when NEEDED...that was in the first few sentences
i spend a lot of my training time working with owners in normal family situations with dogs that are great 90-95% of the time and devils the other 5-ten percent.....and if you don't think shibas fall into that category you have been lucky
i'm spending time and effort trying to pass on real world techniques and advice i have learned over a couple decades working with MANY breeds with MANy problems, not just a couple dozen dogs i've owned. ALL done using ONE system - OC - when you learn to THINK it you can apply it.....if u read CC once or twice it probably won't get into your head enuff to make you able "think it".....if a FEW people try some of my suggestions rather than advise me to tone down my attitude or write clearer, or try and tell me they don't need to take the time to be so detailed oriented with their dog that is fine most of the time....FINE too.....if a very few wrote back and say - "thanks i never thot of it like that - tried it - it worked and my dog is better for it", etc - GREAT but
- if you feel i am too hard to understand- sorry i consider that your problem and not mine cause i just don't have the time and typing skills to do that part any better
- i think i said B4 - i've been reading a LOT of archived posts trying to see what people are doing and how they are thinking
- sorry but in my professional opinion there is too much "A" word being applied to their dogs behaviors....anthrop,,,,,ing :-)
- and that is just what i see in the real world too.....it comes from a lack of understanding of BASIC canine behavior, which is why i harp on that subject so often and try and pass on where it applies, when i see it MISinterpreted by well intentioned but uninformed owners
- i'm not here to do anything more than try and pass on what i know that has and WILL work to help people with their dogs... i try and pass it on as straight as i can....i have no reason to be pc (politically correct) or try and sugar coat a problem i have seen and FIXED that was often denied by an owner or explained as just a (insert breed here) "thing"....it rarely ever is
- i'll probably hang around awhile regardless because my passion is to help people which will then help their dog.....i try and inject humor WHENEVER i can but when i see a problem that I've encountered before and HELPED an owner correct, that's what i'm going to call it rather than just agree to disagree
- u are immersed in the world of NK's....FINE....of course they have their "uniqueness"....but i also deal with many other breeds with the same problems and every owner on the planet who is passionate about their breed feels the same way about the breed they own and love .... and usually explains their problems that way until they learn a little more about canine behavior and how to modify it to fit in a human social environment, which is exactly what i try to do and have been very successful at
- MANAGEMENT of a problem is absolutely necessary.....and unless it's extreme, management "usually" comes after recognition of what it is, and what causes it, and then it's followed by a training plan to modify it ......many stop at management and with most pets in a family environment there is a lot more room for improvement if they are willing to do it and change some of the simple ways they live with and interact with their dog
- and even for problem free dogs EVERY owner would like them to learn more - even if it is just cute tricks - that also can be accelerated when OC is applied correctly
- maybe this rambling post will be hard for you to understand but i hope there are others who read it that won't feel the same way
- putting together long emails is the last thing i have time for and tonight has been a busy day,.,,,4:51 am Japan time as i'm writing and later today (sun) i will be evaluating another new dog
....btw, when "i" type a word in all caps it's because i want to emphasize it, not shout it like some email readers interpret when they see all caps ..... i'm not cyberspace "pc" either :-)
- and i don't have a problem with criticism and debate at all if you back up your opinion with facts or real world xamples rather than personal philosophies; i really welcome it !! i got thick skin....most of my time with uncle sam was with SEAL teams and altho old it's still pretty thick :-)
- crash time for me :-)
And if you want quotes, I can cite lots of stuff. I didn't think it was necessary as I would only usually quote something in debate or argument, not pleasant discussion... but here ya go:
"...that they are useful training tools and should not necessarily be considered something you reach for when NEEDED." That sentence doesn't make sense. I read that as: "Muzzles are useful tools that you shouldn't use when you need them." Please tell me how I interpreted your sentence incorrectly.
"if you feel i am too hard to understand- sorry i consider that your problem and not mine cause i just don't have the time and typing skills to do that part any better" It is my problem. But I'd like to point out how readily you give advice, and maybe considering a criticism of your on technique wouldn't be out of the question. But hey, what do I know. I can barely read.
sorry but in my professional opinion there is too much "A" word being applied to their dogs behaviors....anthrop,,,,,ing :-) I was saying that the way you seem to be talking about dogs was anthropormorphising. I was correcting your understanding of the term. You said in your intro, " ALL types of dog training simply boils down to teaching a dog NOT to to things it would normally do if it didn't have to live in a human environment." I don't disagree with this, but I DO think this qualifies as anthropomorphising an animal. You're expecting it to NOT do dog things and TO do human things. My point was that I don't expect my dogs to do mostly human things because THEY ARE DOGS. I expect them to do mostly dog things, but I only speak from the loving companion pet-parent perspective, not the parent of dogs with jobs.
Frankly our ways of communicating are just too dissimilar so I probably won't be participating in this conversation anymore. It would be silly for me to contribute because clearly the subject matter goes greatly above my head, and I'm blind to the problems my animals have, and I'm just not taking your hard-and-fast rules and applying them the exact same way you would. But... Maybe I understand dog AND human communication a little more than you think.
I'm sitting the rest of this game on the bench, because I am uncomfortable.
another topic i'm interested in ...
i'd like to know how members here feel about muzzles and how they use them if they do, etc
- I think muzzles are great tools to manage a dog with behavioral issues when the dog is desensitized to it properly so that he looks forward to using it.
Q1 if you don't why ?
- I generally don't use a muzzle because I don't put my dog in situations where he needs to be wearing one. I presently don't let him interact with other dogs other than his buddy Taj, my Shiba. He doesn't need one for nail clippings, but he has needed one for blood draws in the past. I am currently working on teaching him to settle on his side and conditioning him to relax when he sees a needle. We need to do bloodwork on him to refill his Alprazolam for thunderstorm anxiety, and we want to do it without a muzzle.
Q2 if you do what kind ? (specifics plse)
- The kind I have used in the past are cloth ones, but basket muzzles are better because you can put food in the basket for them to eat out of.
Q3 if you do how did you condition the dog ? (ditto)
- A good way to condition a dog is to use say cheeze whiz and put some in the basket and let the dog eat out of it on it's own for a few reps, present the muzzle to the dog and let him eat out of it, then put it back behind your back. You could wait for the dog to maybe nudge you or even better, I would wait for Kohji to put his paw on my leg and bark at me to let me know he wants more "cheesey muzzle", then I would let him eat out of it again. As the dog is eating out of the muzzle you can hold up the head strap then drop it and hide the muzzle again. Bring it back out, lift the side strap, then lift the other one, then hide it. Eventually you will be able to snap the straps together, then quickly take it back off again. Present it, strap it on and lure the dog with more treats to move about the room, then take it off. Snap it back on and do a "jolly routine" something easy and fun like wave or lie down or "dance like a circus dog", then take it off. Be sure to pair the sight of the muzzle when you pull it out from behind your back with "do you want to wear your cheesey muzzle?" I would probably end there and try again the next day, I might not even get that far through in one session.
Q4 if you do, when do you use them (ditto)
- I have only used them for blood draws so far.
Also, while I'm always interested in hearing about how people train and manage dogs, I'm very well aware there are many ways to do this, and while I do think OC is quite good, it's not the only way. More to the point, we would probably be a more willing audience if we weren't being lectured to, by some one who seems to assume that we don't know what we're doing. A hint from a long time teacher: you can get better results when you don't talk down to people.
As for my self, regardless of how my dog feels I will need to use a muzzle to keep him from possibly hurting a vet doc. My dogs are big game hunting dogs and so it just comes with the territory, they dont like to be man handled by strangers. I wish I could easily use your methods but its going to be tough to do that with two huting Kishus who have their own personality and extremely hard headed.
Maybe starting off by commenting on other posts and interacting with members might be a great way to mingle.
unfortunately for law enforcement handlers, there has been more legislation passed to allow more rights for scumbag criminals that restricts our K9 handlers even more than they already are when they are out in dangerous situations protecting public safety
re: "...that they are useful training tools and should not necessarily be considered something you reach for when NEEDED." That sentence doesn't make sense. I read that as: "Muzzles are useful tools that you shouldn't use when you need them." Please tell me how I interpreted your sentence incorrectly"
- the key word in my statement was - NECESSARILY - which means that if you think muzzles are ONLY a tool for a dog who might bite, you are not taking full advantage of the alternative way you can use a muzzle for a timid shy dog to give them more "space". or to put it another way, your ability to "think outside the box" is limited.
- but i could also have inserted the word "only" in front of when.....maybe it would it have made more sense that way
- what i DID state was that they can be versatile training tools to help timid and shy dogs by DETERRING other people from approaching them, which not only gives your shy dog more "space", but also allows YOU the owner to control the environment around your dog when you are out in public.
**which is what you need to do with a shy timid dog.....this is not a behavior you can correct in the safety and security of you quiet home.....of COURSE you have the option of just accepting it and dealing with it by isolating your timid dog from anything they don't want to be around or don't feel comfortable with.....but this doesn't FIX the problem..... eventually the dog has to deal with it outside of your home.
i have fixed this type of problem and my ways have worked ...that's why i wrote the muzzle conditioning procedures in step by step details that no one else described .... i did it to show how ANY dog can learn to like wearing a muzzle.....that must happen first before you can use the tool effectively
too bad no one likes my style of writing because the issue i really wanted to get into was dealing with socialization and aggression problems.....two areas i specialize with and have developed quite a few ways to help owners with dogs with these problems.....altho i have worked with NK breeds that have been terrible fear biters and a few that were so handler aggressive the owner was considering sending them to shelters, i've also worked with trained protection dogs that have become handler aggressive
when i see a problem described on this forum that i have also observed with other dogs and and have been successful with their owner to FIX it, you bet your ass i'm gonna call it like i see it !!
when i first work with an owner i do ask them that since they are asking me to help them with a problem they have NOT been able to correct, they MUST allow me to show them my way of trying to resolve it first.
MANY times this means that there are other "adjustments" that they will have to make in the way they live with and handle their dog, that i will tell them has either directly or indirectly affected the problem behavior.
- they must do step "a" before step "b", before they can begin to correct the problem, which is step "c"
- since this may sound greek here is an example that deals with handler aggression
1. in most all cases it has nothing to do with dog being overly sensitive and reacting aggressively to their collar being grabbed, growling when touched in the "wrong" place, or snapping at the owner when given a lead correction
2. it ALWAYS is associated with a dog who does NOT want to pay attention to the owner or handler in the first place.....and why this has developed is of no consequence when setting up a plan to change this behavior
3. so i always begin by stepping BACK and showing the person how to re establish focus and engagement with their dog - OPERANTLY
4. how long this takes only depends on the level of focus they have lost. and at this point many are in denial and DO think their dog is focussed on them, so i have to show them what they "see" is not what i "see", and yes this is sometimes difficult - at first :-)
...but what i do is show them that their dog might watch them and hang around them a lot when the dog wants to, but when it comes time for the owner to ask the dog to "check in" and really pay attention, they (the dog) may or may not :-) usually they don't :-) and in many cases won't even respond to their name being called
- this is because the owner doesn't realize that dogs read people better than people read them, and in simple terms are selfish opportunists :-) *yes this sounds like i am using anthropomorphic terms, but the behavioral terms would probably confuse you more if that wasn't your field of work :-) and if you read and understand Culture Clash, this is explained in much more detail that what i have just written :-)
5. ok, so now that i have discussed focus and engagement in more detail than you care to know and have maybe put some of you to sleep :-) ////many will think it has nothing to do with handler aggression. this is simply not true - it does - and it is the first step along the way when done operantly
ANY of you who have a better system, please lay it out in detail and i will definitely be interested in reading it, (not just one way to deal with one incident, because that is not a training SYSTEM)
.... but to date you won't convince many professional trainers anywhere in the world that a basic understanding of canine behavior applied to the principles of operant conditioning is NOT the best way to train either a family pet or a professional working dog.....pass my quotes in their entirety with your alternative methods to other professionals and get their opinions before you pass judgment on mine any more cause i'm tired of reading about it.
as far as my convoluted writing style - sorry i don't buy it - i'm a UCLA grad, native english speaker, have taught ESL to MANY japanese students (from kids to "Todai" grads), and also taught foreign nationals in many professional subjects while on active duty in the navy ... all over the world
-but most importantly when i work with an owner my PRIMARY goal is EDUCATION...i am not a "watch me and repeat this" kinda guy AT ALL.....i teach em how to fish
what is going on here in my opinion is a lot of "opposition reflex" - applies to people as well as dogs
you shot the messenger in my opinion and i already have enuff on my plate that i don't need to spend time trying to rewrite a post that i feel was clear the first time around...don't ask for help and advice if you're not willing to give it a shot before you say you're happy with the way you do it now......and especially keep the the "wish you had asked nicer and been more friendly first" comments to a minimum because when i see something that i know about and have dealt with i don't debate the issue before i give my advice
Go Bears!
In all seriousness though, your internet writing style is not easy to follow. I don't doubt that in person you carry your points across clearly and with a lot of charm though. Perhaps another media is better for you. How about you posting some of your training video clips and we can move on from there?
As I said before, a less confrontational style would go along way in having people be more open to your points. Enough. I'm not really interested in arguing points with someone who is not open to debate. It's not a discussion, and hasn't been since you started posting on the forum. It's you telling us that you're right, and discounting anyone else's opinion or experience. I don't have any interest in one-sided "discussions" so I'm bowing out of this.
at least we didn't let OJ on our campus - made him stay across town ... roomed in the dorm room next to Lou Alcinder, AKA you know who :-) ... and Mike Warren, who was a great pool player too and beat me consistently
for the Shibamistress :
Turn off trainers because you think they are rude and confrontational and hard to understand, or request they start all PHRASES with an upper case letter, or accuse them from taking offense when they aren't, and then make no case of your own to the contrary and thus ensure it will only be a one way conversation, and then especially get even more frustrated when they write loooong rambling sentences, regardless of whether they are grammatically correct, imo you just diminish the quality of this forum due to your thin skin and over sensitivity
- i have participated in and am still active on other forums (behavior and working dog related) and no one has ever had a problem with the way i write
- many have appreciated my inputs and advice because it helped them solve problems and were grateful i not only told it straight but also supplied the clear details on how to do it
- i'm outa breath and outa this list.....relax once again and return to your normal programming and resume all group hugs -- i'll take my football with me and try not to let the door hit me on the way out - sayonara !!
life is too short ... hope to see ya and your dogs in the next life if there is one
Who ever you think you are, you are now totally out of line. People may have been interested in learning some things about OC from you initially, but now you are just another Forum Troll with bad manners. Good luck to you and all of your amazing clients that only you can help.