How often do the white/cream pop up?
I got thinking, is there some statistics that tells how often the cream/white pups pop up?
@thewalrus Shigeru, do you have an idea of how often they come along. Are there white pups born every year or is it like every second or third year?
I've seen a few in threads in here, and I've also seen that they pop up in shiba litters sometimes...
@thewalrus Shigeru, do you have an idea of how often they come along. Are there white pups born every year or is it like every second or third year?
I've seen a few in threads in here, and I've also seen that they pop up in shiba litters sometimes...
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Nah well, I have thought some about getting a cream kai, but I don't know. I kinda have to limit myself to max. 2 dogs, and I know I want a brindle kai, I would really like to show a bit, and the creams are not permitted. So if I ever got one, it would be to have a family member and training/hiking buddy... And company for my other dog.
I saw Shigeru had an "ad" for a cream pup at one point and I heard that the cream pups are less valuable in Japan and used to be PTS because of the color, and I'd take one without hesitation, to make sure it got a good life. And yeah, the lighter coat would be much better in the summer.
But my request was more because of curiosity. I don't know that much about dog color genetics, and I thought it would be fun to know more about the cream gene in the kais
I know they are not supposed to be cream, I just can't help but like the creams! I've always loved variety, so I guess I'd not be so sad about another color to the breed, as long as the other characteristics are stille the same. Didn't you say some time ago, that the white/cream gene came from some ancestors of a specific line? If so, the white is a part of the kai, as old as the breed, and I don't get why it's so bad. But what do I know
Somehow I'd like to take a cream off a japanese breeder's hands, I'd love a cream kai. But my problem is as always - no job ~ no money ~ no home!
Granted, this is a sample of one dog - but having raised Chows, Akitas, known many other Kais and now raising a white Kai, I can tell you they are unique among even the other Kais in terms of their temperament and behavior. I swear for the first year or two I didn't know how this dog would fit with an indoor lifestyle/family or live anywhere near roads/traffic. I love this dog now - at 5.5yrs - she's an amazing dog with our family & kids, but I wouldn't do it again. To this day, my dad who has lived with her for 6 months - and bribed her daily with food - is barely allowed to pat her, and then it's only on her terms. Aloof is an understatement.
Our Akita, on the other hand lives to love - strangers, family, friends, whoever - any person in her presence must devote their full attention to patting her.
I know - sounds terrible, like there must be some experience in the past to cause this, right? The first 12-15 weeks (I don't remember exactly at this point) is the only time she's not been with us, and honestly can't imagine a breeder - who was planning on keeping the dog as POTL - would do anything horrible. Plus, when we picked her up, she was warm and friendly with us - so the behavior developed as she matured. She's great with kids - all kids. But anybody over 15 or 16 years old she backs away from - especially men. No aggression, just complete avoidance for quite some time.
I think whatever genes trigger the white/cream also provide some "throwback" to temperament as well...
I think you'd have to own several unrelated cream Kai and several unrelated standard Kai, keep them in the same environment, with the same husbandry (routine), for a long time before any temperament differences specific to their color could really be seen.
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Of course having multiple dogs and matching husbandry would help be more definite - but the history behind the dogs and other primitive breeds, and reasons why "white/cream" may have been considered "bad" originally in Japan do come to mind in pondering the behaviors. Could be that the temperament of creams was "known" to be of a less desirable nature?
But the aloof/skittish behavior when there are strangers is troublesome because it's such a severe reaction, and often won't be softened until she's met the person dozens of times - if even then. Just seems like an unpleasant way to live and any type of forced exposure (Pet stores, parks, etc. only makes her more jumpy). Maybe someday the Akita ("Ushi") will rub off on her and convince her that every new person is somebody to love and pat her!
@tim It definitely does not sound like something happened. I wouldn't think for one minute that Marian or you would do anything. I do think that this may be a line trait though and not a color trait. I have a Classy Kai near me, and he's the same way. Also a Kurotora like Brad's. It may be a US Kai trait a bit. It could be that the pups were born in a kennel situation. It could be a lot of things. I don't know, but I am not convinced it's a cream Kai trait based on meeting other Kais.
I would also like to say that my dog's parents are both Classy Kais. I have no issues with Classy Kais. He is only 2, so not yet at that 3-4 mark where you started seeing behavior changes. He's all in all pretty great, but every once in a while something in him snaps and he goes a bit wild/skiddish on people visiting. Even people he's known since he first came home as a pup. All in all, it's only happened a handful of times, and I am a very social person. I think our low occurrence rate is pretty good for a Kai. He was born in a home environment, with a family and children. This is my total bias opinion, but I prefer a Kai who is born in the home. It could make no difference at all in temperment, but somehow in my mind I've convinced myself that it does.
As far as cream being linked to a less desirable nature, not sure about that. Maybe! Could it also be that a cream would be more difficult to hunt in a group of dogs that could blend in better than it if they were red and black brindles? Would that be less desirable for a hunting dog?
Somewhat worrisome if it's a breeder's line that does this - really not a very desirable quality for a dog. Ironically, the other breeder in the area (Marsha who runs NAKA) had a number of dogs at the same time, and we found Marian's dogs much more friendly and social. We spent time with both, and preferred the Classy dogs - based solely on temperament of the pups and parents! They were all beautiful dogs, but Marian's were just nicer/more friendly!
Granted this is going back 6+ years to meeting them and seeing them - and little or no contact in between, so maybe things have changed.
But then again this could also just be a Kai thing that happens. I do get what you mean though about wishing she could be comfortable in social settings and not stressed out.
You also have to consider that it may not be specific to Classy's dogs and instead to the the dogs originally brought over to the US. Looking at it that way, it spreads the temperament traits mentioned above across all of the Kai Ken population in America since the majority stem from those original imports, therefore it's not limited to a specific US kennel.
If I compare the Kai I have met in the states to the Kai I met in Japan, on average, I noticed an improvement in temperament in the Japanese Kai, which I would guess is due to the larger population of Kai Ken over there. The Kai I met over there were more people-friendly and less shy.
Obviously this is anecdotal, and I have no real data to back it up, and even my house full of imports comes from a limited gene pool and so the qualities I see in my dogs may be specific to their lines and not to the Japanese population as a whole. But, it could suggest that the temperament qualities mentioned above are related to inbreed depression in America due to a rather closed Kai population here.
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As for why the cream/white Kai Ken is not included in the standard in Japan, it's my opinion that it has less to do with any potential temperament traits and more to do with helping to clearly define the boundaries between each race (breed).
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Koda would be like Ritsu and Nio combined. He'd rather be with other dogs than humans who come into the home. That was my impression of Nio. He didn't show a lack of confidence, fear, or stress; he just had better things to do than to visit with humans. If there's a dog involved, Koda will ignore everyone and focus his attention on the dog and playing. He's also socially laid back and easy going like Ritsu seemed to be. Koda is confident in social settings. The only real fear he has is the vet and smoke.
Probably not enough dogs of this race (cream/white) to get a solid handle on anything specific or scientific... Guess my pup & her demeanor will just remain a mystery!
"I think that it has at least a little something to do with the recessive genes"
Strictly speaking, the recessive gene that causes white/cream in Kai and GSD is the same as in labradors and goldens.
It's more likely that she inherited that temperament and it just happened that she also inherited the e/e.
There are dogs that a genetically shy (or primitive if that's a better descriptor) rather than environmentally shy. They are outgoing as a pup, socialized to the max by an experienced dog person, and then some time later turn into what they are.