Interesting Read: "In the Eyes of a Dog"
In the Eyes of a Dog
Article: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/01/in-the-eyes-of-a-dog.html
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Article: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/01/in-the-eyes-of-a-dog.html
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Comments
I find the pointing thing so interesting. I often point to get the dogs' attention, and with Toby, often I don't even make the whole gesture: if I look at him when he's outside, then either point to, or look at the door to his room, he'll usually run to the door right away.
Also, we have a lot of dogs here, who all free-play regularly, and I cannot think of a single time I've EVER heard them make high-pitched sounds at each other to initiate a play session...
Are there any scientific papers or studies anyone can point me to that would indicate dogs use high-pitched sounds to solicit play?
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Huh? I agree that a high toned voice can get a dog's attention. When I use that voice, my dogs think I'm happy and come up to me. But I've never heard my dog's use a high pitch tone unless you count the time when Koda was hit by a car and he was screaming. But I don't think he was happy.
My dogs only make high pitched sounds in pain or sometimes the dreaded Shiba scream (from, say, a bath) which is of course not at all a happy sound.
Anyway, it's an interesting question to me: why are dogs interested in higher pitch sounds? It could be as simple as novelty--perhaps they don't hear them quite as often? Is it just excitement? I also find it interesting to actually question what might be behind these kind of assumptions.
Another theory about high-pitched voices: could it be that they simply hear it better? Exactly what is the range of a dog's hearing?
And of course, individual dogs use different communication styles, too. So for me, I'm not entirely convinced about the universal language among dogs...
As for the high pitched sounds, it could be that they hear them better....Interesting.
My dogs never use high pitch sounds either in play, as I said, and in fact, their play growls are distinctive from real growls in that they tend to pitch them a bit lower, rather than higher, or at least I've noticed that.
However, I disagree that us acting like dogs helps them understand us better. The idea of "communicating with them on a level they are pre-wired to understand" takes certain assumptions - certain logical leaps - that I just cannot overlook. The truth is, we don't understand dogs, and we don't know 100% what they mean with every behavior. We can only assume to know, and that (an assumption) seems like a dangerous thing to base a relationship on.
To me, it seems much more logical (and unassuming) to simply train a dog like you are a human training a dog. Instead of being a human who is mimicking a dog to communicate human-intent to a dog.
Honestly, it seems rather backwards to me. Dogs have evolved to read humans incredibly well, like way better than we can read them (or even each other). So why waste time trying to act like a dog when dogs read us better than we read them?
On the high-pitched voice thing, it makes a lot more sense to me that making your voice high-pitched and excited-sounding coaxes excitement from the dog, as it does a child. That excitement then helps to keep their attention. No need to create over-blown assumptions based on dog-dog communication or dog's hearing capabilities.
That's just my opinion.
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Throwing my more than 2 cents worth in on parts of this ...its a bit off the topic ....
About sounds and play style. Patricia McConnell discusses this in one of her video series "Dog Play". She indicates that study on play styles among different breeds is a topic that is in need of more research. However, at this point based on some observations it does appear that differing breeds can have different play styles and somewhat different vocalizations that may not necessarily be the same or maybe not indicate the same thing. She suggests not all dogs will understand how to read the other of another breed automatically without some social exposure.
As a human example, think of waving in the American culture, we wave to say goodbye or to hail a cab. We all have the same capabilities, however, in other cultures within the human subgroup it can mean something entirely different. Same goes with a thumbs up gesture. Although this topic brushes on signs and symbols, there may be hints that some signs or possibly at very miniscule level, certain types signals may be learned but not inherent in canines. However, at this point we can not say for sure without study and further details.
Additionally, what many have observed among dogs is (as with many mammals) until context is understood there can be confusion. Even among canines and their supposed generalized communication system, it is not necessarily the same across the board as a grouped whole.
Lots of food for thought. If anyone gets the opportunity to hear or attend Dr. McConnell's seminars they are well worth it.
Snf
PS: As for my own dogs, high pitch does not indicate play, usually the queue for play is a combination of sound (generally deep yip or growl) combined with motion or gesture (think butt bump or play bow with some snapping). Higher pitches are used to indicate frustration or pain. Since my dogs are not barkers or high complainers it seems the significance of their communication group is more than likely a bit more subtle and assertive, and held within the scale of the lower tones. I also have to mention that some of my dogs are also clueless when it comes to the lower tones of other dogs given as a menacing warning. Often tending to be disregard, probably having habituated to the growl play style of their main play group. Only with experience have my own dogs gained a better sense of wisdom with the sounds and actions of other dogs of other breeds. On the opposing extreme we have neighbors who have a screaming banshee mixed terrier (think rabbit squeal) when excited on a walk. It sends my dogs into overdrive to correct or make contact with the seemingly crazy dog. In my interpretation my dogs see it as crying wolf, false screaming seems to push my dogs normal concern for injury of another dog into the "bitch slap" mode once they realize there isn't a problem. No amount of exposure has gotten them over this high note dog. It does seem there are multiple factors going on that are obviously beyond the issue of sound, but I'll never know probably unless my dogs learn to talk. : )
In regards to these statements...
"These ideas are hardly my own, but are based on the teaching, training, and publications of many trainers, and behaviorist, then reinforced with my own observations."
>> I would (honestly) be very interested in reading something written by a certified (AVSAB) behaviorists stating that the best way to communicate with a dog is to mimic them.
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"As after as your view being more unassuming, I think that is a matter of what your opinion on the matter is. The way I see it, it is a much farther leap to think that a animal with the cognitive level of a dog different communication systems for different situations (here I am talking about instinctual interactions, not ones built through conditioning)." [sic]
>> Sure, it's a matter of opinion. Tho, does this article not address this very thing? The dogs in the article, once engaged, instinctively "read" the human's gesture. The dogs didn't need the human to mimic a dog to understand where to look, the dogs knew where to look because he/she had a natural understanding of what the human was communicating (via a TV screen in this case).
So, doesn't that show that dogs DO have the natural ability to understand humans?
I'll add, the real point of this study was to show how dogs interacted with a person on a TV. There are plenty of other studies that show how dogs have an instinctual ability to understand humans in person too. Here is an example..
http://news.discovery.com/videos/news-dogs-read-gestures-like-toddlers.html
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On another note, I do agree that not all breeds of dogs communicate the same way during play.
Snf, thanks for mentioning the McConnell series. I remembered, vaguely, that someone had talked about this, but I couldn't remember where I'd come across that.
And super interesting about the high pitiched sounds of the terriers. My Akita is a pretty easy going guy, and gets along with other dogs well enough, but I've introduced him to my friend's young border terrier several times, and we finally decided it's probably best not to expect them to get along. The BT does make this high pitched scream/whine when he is excited (it is excruiating to hear) and Oskar just seems to go into prey mode, and since the terrier is running around like a crazy thing anyway, I see Oskar go into chase mode, and it all seems like a bad mix. It's clear Oskar has no idea what to do with this noisy little thing, and he doesn't seem entirely convinced that the terrier is another dog, so....yeah. We just don't try and let them play anymore.
I also think that there is a lot of dog to dog miscommunication. Signals that I thought were universal ( lip curling for instance) are frequently not read by other dogs and my little one will keep escalating signals until the other dog or owner responds. I've realized that I tend to read my dogs better than other dogs read them. I believe it is because we live in the same household. It's of course an entirely non-scientific observation but I would be curious to see a study on the efficacy and efficiency of dog to dog and dog to human communication with groups broken up by household and socialization exposure to see how great an impact familiarity has on communication efficacy.
Ps - I also say this is one with a dog who does like to mimic and defaults to some interesting behavior because of it.
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Conker observes and sometimes imitates other dogs, rarely people. On a couple occasions I do catch him doing things I've never seen him try before, but I don't know if he learned it from watching me or just by trying something different.
Actually my girlfriend was over the other day and after about an hour of interacting with Ruby she announced to me "THIS is not a dog. Someone gave you a toddler in a dog suit."
I don't know, but thinking about Ruby raised interesting questions in my mind! I also note that it is my more biddable Akita that is the greatest mimic (not that I've seen him mimic people), and Toby, the least biddable of my three, almost never mimics the behavior of other dogs even. In fact, it took years to teach him how to play. He just didn't seem to know how to do it or what the purpose is, and he never mimicked the behavior of the other dogs (even when they were together) to try to engage in play. Now, at 8, he does play with us, in his own odd way, but he certainly did not learn how to play games from watching the other dogs, as Oskar did as a young pup.