You can get a good, healthy German Shepherd in the US, but it takes some work (as does finding any breeder, of course!) and you have to look for working lines. As I said, my friend has a really good healthy one, from Euro working lines. He's just one of the most even tempered dogs I've ever met, and has had zero health problems, except for very occasional seasonal allergies. So it's possible if that's what you want--certainly GSDs (or Malinois, or Dutch Shepherds) pretty much fulfill many of the things you want. As would a pit, of course (smaller in size, though, and depending on where you live, there could be regulations against them, which is utterly ridiculous, but might be something that you'd have to deal with).
I'm a little puzzled about some of the things you were worrying about, though, like going off and getting itself to trouble like getting run over by a car, as I don't know how a dog would do that unless it were loose....
dobermans are also wonderful dogs and would fit the bill well. Or a golden retriever. Or if you're looking for less common, maybe some of the less common retrievers like a Cheseapeake Bay retriever? Or flat-coated retriever?
I'm partial to Irish Wolfhounds, but they are often so short-lived it's just heartbreaking.
Gotta admit, though, an NK doesn't sound like it would be the best match, though Akitas CAN be all those things....it's just not the first dog I'd suggest with that list of criteria.
Thank you all for your suggestions , I knOw I am making this more confusing that it needs to be. I understand the MOlosser breed of dogs will be surrounded by prejudice but that because of human misuse which comes to my point I was trying to make . How do I go by finding the right breed and the right breeder . I would love to have either of your suggested breeds ,be it a Ridgeback or a Rottie or a Cane Corso or a American bulldog or a Pitbull but I fear that I might be dealing with a money driven breeder who doesn't care about the breed and the person who is taking the into his life.
I am in Baltimore and there are no bans thus far although there is word of Pitbulls being banned but this because of people being completely stupid.anytime I visit the shelter 90% of dogs there are Pitbulls or a mix of. Mistreated to the point of being un-adoptable. It is a shame.
I had searched the Wolfhounds but they really live short lives,it would be hard. I have been looking into Boerboel,American bulldog,Cane Corso and most of the Molossers that do not grow to be huge. The information i find on the Internet isn't that helpful. I am hoping to at least narrow my search to at least three and from there to finding a honest breeder.
Boerboels can be 200lbs, that's pretty huge IMHO. Having written that, my Boerboel is smaller (125lbs) and is a wonderful dog. He's a protector tho, and not for an inexperienced owner.
Our Cane Corso (Blue) is nice too, he's a good boy, but extremely dogs aggressive. He's smaller than a BB.
I really like Old English White Bulldogs (Old Southern Whites). That;s the only type of AB I'd own.
I'm very drawn to large sighthounds, myself. I have met several younger Borzoi, Wolfhounds and Deerhounds, which makes me fear that they live until they're 5 or 6 and then suddenly are no longer active enough to be out in public. I exaggerate, of course... But I have certainly noticed that I seldom see any "older" dogs of those breeds. However, I've met several old Greyhounds that were large and stately and active even at 10 ~ 12 years, which I think is quite respectable.
There are some beautiful Ridgebacks too. They seem quite popular around here. But size ranges all over the place, from what I've seen. Petite females fall well under 60 pounds. The sweetest, biggest, oldest male I know also happens to be ridgeless. But he's gorgeous nonetheless.
As to how to find the right breed, I think you should narrow down what you really want in a breed, temperment, health AND looks, and then focus on a couple of these as possibilities. Then start trying to meet some of these dogs. Dog shows are GREAT places to meet a lot of different types of dogs, and most owners are quite willing to talk about their dogs (as long as it is not right when they're going in the ring). I imagine going to other dog activities would be similar. Another option, once you've narrowed down breed, is to talk to rescue groups, who would also help you get to know the breed, esp. if you're considering adopting.
As to finding the right breeder, I think we have some threads on that. I know for sure we do on the Shiba side, so that's a good place to check, because the stuff we've talked about there will transfer to other breeds. You're looking for good health guarantees, for a breeder who asks YOU a lot of questions, etc. On the Shiba side we were pointing out, recently, that with a good breeder, you're not really just asking to buy a dog, you're really trying to sell yourself as a good potential home for one of their puppies, so good breeders have lots of questions!
When I read descriptions for some of the Molosser breeds , especially the bulldogs there often is a line that states that they are naturally protective of you. Does this mean that I am leaving the dog decide whether a situation poses a danger to me ?
I know that an ideal breeder is the one that asks questions but I have found that thus far owners of dogs to be more honest in describing their dogs. Hence me asking here in this forum that seems to be frequented by very nice ,honest dog owners. My main problem now is excluding breeds that will be unreasonably aggressive,I am thinking human unreasonably. Can I ask for a pick of 5 breeds I should consider?
Does this mean that I am leaving the dog decide whether a situation poses a danger to me ? >> To an extent. A dog that is naturally protective will be protective of you without asking them to be. You adjust this natural protectiveness (teaching good judgement) with socialization, and you use obedience training to put control on the dog during situation where they may feel the need to be protective.
This natural protectiveness is pretty strong in a many of the guardian breeds, which are typically molossers. But not all molossers are guardian breeds.
@alban--I was thinking of asking owners and dog breeders about their dogs after you'd already learned a lot about a potential breed, anyway, so you can make some judgements on what they tell you!
Ok, so again, what are you looking for specifically? Looking back over this, I'm thinking you want the following:
--healthy and relatively long lived --large: 60 pounds or above --biddable (relatively easy to train) --gets along with kids (not sure how important this one was, but you mentioned kids) --energetic
Are there other things? You like the look of the molassers but aren't sure you want a protective dog or one that you'd have to work around its protective tendencies? Is there something about socialibility you'd put on that list? Like how friendly do you want the dog to be to people you might meet? Will the dog being going places where s/he would meet a lot of new people (like lots of walks/hikes etc) or is that not terribly important?
It seems like knowing the degree of protectiveness (or tendency towards) and degree of sociability you're looking for may help.
(And I wouldn't worry about us being patient in helping you in your quest--I'm pretty sure we all like these sorts of questions a lot! )
Thanks Shibamistress for your understanding. To put it in some sort of list :
Healthy and long lived(above 10 good years) 60 and above lbs
I'd say trainable meaning the training has to stick .Again this depends on both dog and human.Some dog breeds, however,are more stubborn then others.
good with children ,definitely .Assuming the kids are good with the dog just as well.
As far as level of protectiveness , it has to be at a controllable level, through voice and body language commands.It can make decisions up to a point but ultimately I'd like to be in control when it comes to protection.This is very important!I can work with its tendencies as long as there is room to work with.
It doesn't have to be everybodys' friend but neither the opposite.I like to take my dog out of town at least twice a week in the woods.There are other people around so I wouldn't want him going after people. Then the daily walks would be in areas where other people walk so a good citizen would be best. A lot of people where I live have untrained ,aggressive dogs. Most of people rescue their dogs and thinking that the dog will be grateful for that and train himself,so they do not bother training them. I always try to set the opposite example that a trained dog is a happy and alive dog. They always try to make excuses for the dogs being aggressive and I always mention that training helps,alot.
I am not looking for a Lab or a Golden R. or any type of suburban breed:) I just love Molossers. I grew up with an Illyrian Shepherd Dog but that was in the countryside. I just would love to be able to have a Molosser for a companion
Honestly, I'd say an Australian Shepherd would be suitable for you. I have a friend whose wife trains and competes with them for obedience and confirmation and he swears by them for all the qualifiers you stated above, especially for guarding
Everyone is entitled to their breed preferences, but I feel I must point out that a working Lab and/or Golden R. are by no means suburban if the owner has an active/hunting lifestyle. However, if by suburban breed you mean that their popularity is such that their numbers can dilute their working temperments then I will not argue against that.
"However, if by suburban breed you mean that their popularity is such that their numbers can dilute their working temperments then I will not argue against that." Exactly !
I will look up the AS though it seems to be on the bark alot side
I don't know a lot about them, actually, but the very few I've met seemed pretty calm and easy going. That's also true of English mastiffs by the way. The problem with the mastiffs--would it be true with the dogue de bordeaux too?--beyond the drool, I mean, which for me is simply intolerable--is that they're pretty short lived. My friends have an English mastiff and some Neos, and their English boy, who is the same age as my male Shiba (8) is really a senior now, and they don't think he'll live out 2012. For my Shiba, he's just middle aged.
That's what I'd worry about with the really big ones....short life spans. (And of course obviously for me drool is deal breaker. I didn't know my AA would drool as much as he does and I don't like it at all. And really, all that happens with him is not real drool, but the water running out of his mouth after he drinks. But I hate it!)
I'm still thinking too, about possible dogs...you've given me something fun to consider in between all my prep for the new semester! It's much more fun than writing a syllabus!
@alban - Have you considered a Tosa Inu? They're big and protective, but not true guardians (so not crazy protective). They'll be fine with family dogs, but dog reactive to unknown dogs (most molossers will have this tendency anyway).
Tosa as far as I know were bred to fight so I am not sure would be a good choice . Do not misunderstand me though , I like Tosas as I do like most of the Molossers or other big dogs and most of dogs and other animals and so on and on The thing is I want to be 100% sure that will work out between me and the dog I pick. I consider taking a dog in a big responsability so I need to very sure when I choose. My search is sort of amorphous right now so I am trying to narrow it down to maybe 2 to 3 dogs .That will make things easier, I think . You're rigjht about the Dogue,they seem to suffer from many things and live short lives unfortunately . What would be a DDB but healthier and longer lived?
I want to add Boxers to the mix. They are 50-70lbs, typically live 12-14 years, and are moderately healthy if from a responsible breeder. Boxers are goofy and fun-loving, and while many people say they're stubborn, I think it depends on the owner being firm with them. Pet-bred Boxers love everyone they meet, but many German line Boxers are still used as PPD and police dogs.
Well, most of the molosser breeds, especially the mastiff (like the DDB), were selected to do"the dirty work" other breeds didn't do. So if a breed produced to do "darker" work in the world of dogs bothers you, then perhaps a molosser is not a good choice for you?
Even the Boxer was produced to be a lighter version of the Bullmastiff, which had a pretty dark role in the working dog world too.
I am not sure understand what you mean by , bother. If Tosas for example were originally bred to fight it seems as it would be hard to find a breeder that promotes other then that trait. Am i wrong?
As far as Molosser they are my 1st xhoice , a Spitz would be my second if all my molosser quest reaches a dead end
@alban - The Tosa is selected for fighting in Japan, but outside of Japan where fighting is not legal very few are still selected for fighting. Like the DDB, which was a breed that was used for fighting, many of the mastiff breeders are no longer selected for the type of work that once performed - but those traits can still be present in the breed even if only to to a small degree.
It just seems silly to me for you to pass-over the Tosa due to it's fighting origin in favor for a DDB which was also a fighting breed at one point.
Honestly, I'd take a dog selected for a specific type of work which is still being used for that work over a breed that was once selected for a role and is now selected for companionship or show - at least with the dog selected for a type of work there is some temperament predictability.
I completely agree on the temperament unpredictability. In fact that is exactly the reason why I am being extra cautious in picking a dog. What is your thoughts on Tosas specificLly? Wouldn't a Tosa be unpredictable ? Which of the Molossers offer the least degree of npredictability?
@alban - I really think it's less about the breed and more about the breeder. A breeder who works their dogs and knows behavior would produce the most predictable dogs IMHO.
I thought about boxers too. Athletic dogs, moderately healthy if you're careful where you get it from, fun loving, and sweet. Not my fave dog, but even I've been charmed by the ones I've met, and honestly, I'm not a big fan of most of the molossers. Just not my preferred type.
I was looking last night at life spans for dogs and was just shocked by how short some are. 6-8 years for Irish Wolfhounds. Average age at death of an English bulldog is something horrible like 3-4! (of course, they are so overbred and exaggerated now that it is really killing the breed--I mean, they can't even breed or give birth naturally! I think they need to stop being bred). I had been thinking the Bernese Mountain Dog might be a good dog for you--very trainable, big, friendly and sociable, but not all over people, but turns out they have a relatively short life span too (8-10 years). But I think if you get to 10 in most of the large breeds, you're doing pretty well. My GSD made it to 11. I expect my Akita will be in that range too.
I think you might also consider some of the dogs from the herding group, though. They are biddable, smart, and if properly socialized are great with people, and have a fine sense of discernment about when to be friendly, and when not. If looking for a good GSD breeder who imports and produces dogs for work (and there are such good breeders in the US) is more than what you want to do, look for Malinois or Dutch Shepherds. Or Tervurens. I guess a downside of the Belgians is that they are super motivated to work, and you'd have to commit to a good training program with them to keep their minds engaged, but that's a good thing if you're looking for an energetic companion dog. I would think they'd be a good match for what you're looking for.
And of course, there is always that diva of the dog world, the Border Collie, who fits your description of what you want too. Intense dogs (SO NOT the dog for me! *lol*), but smart, super trainable, energetic, gets along with kids, etc.
If you decide on a particular breed, also consider "rescue dogs". With the recent economic downturn, many very nice dogs have wound up in rescue (thru no fault of their own).
Comments
I'm a little puzzled about some of the things you were worrying about, though, like going off and getting itself to trouble like getting run over by a car, as I don't know how a dog would do that unless it were loose....
dobermans are also wonderful dogs and would fit the bill well. Or a golden retriever. Or if you're looking for less common, maybe some of the less common retrievers like a Cheseapeake Bay retriever? Or flat-coated retriever?
I'm partial to Irish Wolfhounds, but they are often so short-lived it's just heartbreaking.
Gotta admit, though, an NK doesn't sound like it would be the best match, though Akitas CAN be all those things....it's just not the first dog I'd suggest with that list of criteria.
I am in Baltimore and there are no bans thus far although there is word of Pitbulls being banned but this because of people being completely stupid.anytime I visit the shelter 90% of dogs there are Pitbulls or a mix of. Mistreated to the point of being un-adoptable. It is a shame.
I had searched the Wolfhounds but they really live short lives,it would be hard. I have been looking into Boerboel,American bulldog,Cane Corso and most of the Molossers that do not grow to be huge. The information i find on the Internet isn't that helpful. I am hoping to at least narrow my search to at least three and from there to finding a honest breeder.
Our Cane Corso (Blue) is nice too, he's a good boy, but extremely dogs aggressive. He's smaller than a BB.
I really like Old English White Bulldogs (Old Southern Whites). That;s the only type of AB I'd own.
----
There are some beautiful Ridgebacks too. They seem quite popular around here. But size ranges all over the place, from what I've seen. Petite females fall well under 60 pounds. The sweetest, biggest, oldest male I know also happens to be ridgeless. But he's gorgeous nonetheless.
As to finding the right breeder, I think we have some threads on that. I know for sure we do on the Shiba side, so that's a good place to check, because the stuff we've talked about there will transfer to other breeds. You're looking for good health guarantees, for a breeder who asks YOU a lot of questions, etc. On the Shiba side we were pointing out, recently, that with a good breeder, you're not really just asking to buy a dog, you're really trying to sell yourself as a good potential home for one of their puppies, so good breeders have lots of questions!
I know that an ideal breeder is the one that asks questions but I have found that thus far owners of dogs to be more honest in describing their dogs. Hence me asking here in this forum that seems to be frequented by very nice ,honest dog owners. My main problem now is excluding breeds that will be unreasonably aggressive,I am thinking human unreasonably. Can I ask for a pick of 5 breeds I should consider?
Thanks for your patience
>> To an extent. A dog that is naturally protective will be protective of you without asking them to be. You adjust this natural protectiveness (teaching good judgement) with socialization, and you use obedience training to put control on the dog during situation where they may feel the need to be protective.
This natural protectiveness is pretty strong in a many of the guardian breeds, which are typically molossers. But not all molossers are guardian breeds.
----
Ok, so again, what are you looking for specifically? Looking back over this, I'm thinking you want the following:
--healthy and relatively long lived
--large: 60 pounds or above
--biddable (relatively easy to train)
--gets along with kids (not sure how important this one was, but you mentioned kids)
--energetic
Are there other things? You like the look of the molassers but aren't sure you want a protective dog or one that you'd have to work around its protective tendencies? Is there something about socialibility you'd put on that list? Like how friendly do you want the dog to be to people you might meet? Will the dog being going places where s/he would meet a lot of new people (like lots of walks/hikes etc) or is that not terribly important?
It seems like knowing the degree of protectiveness (or tendency towards) and degree of sociability you're looking for may help.
(And I wouldn't worry about us being patient in helping you in your quest--I'm pretty sure we all like these sorts of questions a lot!
Healthy and long lived(above 10 good years)
60 and above lbs
I'd say trainable meaning the training has to stick .Again this depends on both dog and human.Some dog breeds, however,are more stubborn then others.
good with children ,definitely .Assuming the kids are good with the dog just as well.
As far as level of protectiveness , it has to be at a controllable level, through voice and body language commands.It can make decisions up to a point but ultimately I'd like to be in control when it comes to protection.This is very important!I can work with its tendencies as long as there is room to work with.
It doesn't have to be everybodys' friend but neither the opposite.I like to take my dog out of town at least twice a week in the woods.There are other people around so I wouldn't want him going after people. Then the daily walks would be in areas where other people walk so a good citizen would be best. A lot of people where I live have untrained ,aggressive dogs. Most of people rescue their dogs and thinking that the dog will be grateful for that and train himself,so they do not bother training them. I always try to set the opposite example that a trained dog is a happy and alive dog. They always try to make excuses for the dogs being aggressive and I always mention that training helps,alot.
I am not looking for a Lab or a Golden R. or any type of suburban breed:) I just love Molossers. I grew up with an Illyrian Shepherd Dog but that was in the countryside. I just would love to be able to have a Molosser for a companion
Thanks guys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Shepherd
Everyone is entitled to their breed preferences, but I feel I must point out that a working Lab and/or Golden R. are by no means suburban if the owner has an active/hunting lifestyle. However, if by suburban breed you mean that their popularity is such that their numbers can dilute their working temperments then I will not argue against that.
Jesse
I will look up the AS though it seems to be on the bark alot side
Thanks Crimson
I don't know a lot about them, actually, but the very few I've met seemed pretty calm and easy going. That's also true of English mastiffs by the way. The problem with the mastiffs--would it be true with the dogue de bordeaux too?--beyond the drool, I mean, which for me is simply intolerable--is that they're pretty short lived. My friends have an English mastiff and some Neos, and their English boy, who is the same age as my male Shiba (8) is really a senior now, and they don't think he'll live out 2012. For my Shiba, he's just middle aged.
That's what I'd worry about with the really big ones....short life spans. (And of course obviously for me drool is deal breaker. I didn't know my AA would drool as much as he does and I don't like it at all. And really, all that happens with him is not real drool, but the water running out of his mouth after he drinks. But I hate it!)
I'm still thinking too, about possible dogs...you've given me something fun to consider in between all my prep for the new semester! It's much more fun than writing a syllabus!
----
Even the Boxer was produced to be a lighter version of the Bullmastiff, which had a pretty dark role in the working dog world too.
As far as Molosser they are my 1st xhoice , a Spitz would be my second if all my molosser quest reaches a dead end
http://www.thedca.org/referral.html
There is a Central Maryland Dalmatian Club.
It just seems silly to me for you to pass-over the Tosa due to it's fighting origin in favor for a DDB which was also a fighting breed at one point.
Honestly, I'd take a dog selected for a specific type of work which is still being used for that work over a breed that was once selected for a role and is now selected for companionship or show - at least with the dog selected for a type of work there is some temperament predictability.
----
Here is a video on Dalmatian "Road Trials":
http://www.thedca.org/Videos/RTExercises.wmv
I was looking last night at life spans for dogs and was just shocked by how short some are. 6-8 years for Irish Wolfhounds. Average age at death of an English bulldog is something horrible like 3-4! (of course, they are so overbred and exaggerated now that it is really killing the breed--I mean, they can't even breed or give birth naturally! I think they need to stop being bred). I had been thinking the Bernese Mountain Dog might be a good dog for you--very trainable, big, friendly and sociable, but not all over people, but turns out they have a relatively short life span too (8-10 years). But I think if you get to 10 in most of the large breeds, you're doing pretty well. My GSD made it to 11. I expect my Akita will be in that range too.
I think you might also consider some of the dogs from the herding group, though. They are biddable, smart, and if properly socialized are great with people, and have a fine sense of discernment about when to be friendly, and when not. If looking for a good GSD breeder who imports and produces dogs for work (and there are such good breeders in the US) is more than what you want to do, look for Malinois or Dutch Shepherds. Or Tervurens. I guess a downside of the Belgians is that they are super motivated to work, and you'd have to commit to a good training program with them to keep their minds engaged, but that's a good thing if you're looking for an energetic companion dog. I would think they'd be a good match for what you're looking for.
And of course, there is always that diva of the dog world, the Border Collie, who fits your description of what you want too. Intense dogs (SO NOT the dog for me! *lol*), but smart, super trainable, energetic, gets along with kids, etc.