siblings fight
Hello,
As i stated in the introduction, we have Shikoku twins, born 27th October 2011.
They have been the best of friends, not mentioning a few arguments once in a while concerning a sweet, a toy or a cookie. But lately, well the last few days really, we can't leave them them together any more, or they will start a fight. We cannot really find the trigger, other then "eye contact", me being too close to Sugoi (the smallest one) or one of our family touching one or the other. They are never angry at us, on the contrary, they are the most sweet and loving pets you can imagine (with a temper, an attitude and an amazing curiosity
). But today when i wanted to separate them during a fight, Sugoi was aiming to bite her sister and got my finger instead, it is still attached to my hand, so no worries there... 
, but i don't want to imagine what this will become when they get older and stronger if we can't put a stop to this now. We don't want them to hurt one another!
We will not give up on them and plan to make it work, but if you have any info, hints or tips that can help us, they would be greatly appreciated!! We keep imagining things that might be bothering them, in human terms, but all that stuff probably doesn't mean a thing to them and they have very different issues. Dominance? A need for more personal space? They can't tell us, but we are beginning to understand their body language a bit at a time.
Now Sugoi has been operated a month ago, due to a serious bowel problem that came close to killing her. Due to all those problems she has been always a lot smaller then her sister, but these days we can hardly tell them apart by size or figure... or coloring for that matter, they really are twins. Maybe that gives them more reason to fight for dominance?
I made the following videos and would love your insights on it all.
Here Futago comes out of top and she is the menacing one, at the start Sugoi is standing there almost frozen from fear (i think?) and not daring to look my way. They often blow their noses and lick the "air" with their tongue as well... does this have a meaning? Futago's paw is hurt at a certain moment, it's not the first time i notice her pulling her leg, but that doesn't prevent her from attacking again later.
this one starts with Sugoi "dominating" her sister (who pulls her paw again) and a lot of growling and menacing...
Thank you in advance!
Sandra
As i stated in the introduction, we have Shikoku twins, born 27th October 2011.
They have been the best of friends, not mentioning a few arguments once in a while concerning a sweet, a toy or a cookie. But lately, well the last few days really, we can't leave them them together any more, or they will start a fight. We cannot really find the trigger, other then "eye contact", me being too close to Sugoi (the smallest one) or one of our family touching one or the other. They are never angry at us, on the contrary, they are the most sweet and loving pets you can imagine (with a temper, an attitude and an amazing curiosity
). But today when i wanted to separate them during a fight, Sugoi was aiming to bite her sister and got my finger instead, it is still attached to my hand, so no worries there... , but i don't want to imagine what this will become when they get older and stronger if we can't put a stop to this now. We don't want them to hurt one another! We will not give up on them and plan to make it work, but if you have any info, hints or tips that can help us, they would be greatly appreciated!! We keep imagining things that might be bothering them, in human terms, but all that stuff probably doesn't mean a thing to them and they have very different issues. Dominance? A need for more personal space? They can't tell us, but we are beginning to understand their body language a bit at a time.
Now Sugoi has been operated a month ago, due to a serious bowel problem that came close to killing her. Due to all those problems she has been always a lot smaller then her sister, but these days we can hardly tell them apart by size or figure... or coloring for that matter, they really are twins. Maybe that gives them more reason to fight for dominance?
I made the following videos and would love your insights on it all.
Here Futago comes out of top and she is the menacing one, at the start Sugoi is standing there almost frozen from fear (i think?) and not daring to look my way. They often blow their noses and lick the "air" with their tongue as well... does this have a meaning? Futago's paw is hurt at a certain moment, it's not the first time i notice her pulling her leg, but that doesn't prevent her from attacking again later.
this one starts with Sugoi "dominating" her sister (who pulls her paw again) and a lot of growling and menacing...
Thank you in advance!
Sandra
Comments
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articles/docs/DominanceArticle.pdf
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/advanstar/vm0908/#/32
http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=254
http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=225
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/lets-just-be-humans-training-dogs
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid
Second, the first step in extinguishing behaviors you don't want to see is to prevent them from occurring. The more a dog practices a behavior the more he/she will practice those behaviors. You may want to familiarize yourself with the Ladder of Aggression: http://www.angleseypetclinic.co.uk/pdf/dogs/aggression.pdf - Study it, and separate your pups before their behaviors escalates past the first 3 rungs of the "ladder".
As for licking the "air" (nose licking), it is said to be a "calming signal".
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When I had littermate sisters, I noticed that if they had a chance to go out on walks together (on leash in a purposeful direction in a strange area), their vibe was more "us versus the world" rather than "you against me".
It looks to me like Sugoi is the one instigating the fight in the first video. She looks to be uncertain, but frozen as a challenge, not in fear or submission. It's that "I'm Uncomfortable" stance I see my Mal take (and I know it's pretty common to see in some NK) when he doesn't want to back down to another dog. From the looks of it, Futago is much more comfortable than Sugoi and her energy is much different when she's pacing around and sniffing at Sugoi. It's Sugoi's tense and uncomfortable language that looks to have started the fight in the first video. In the second, Futago looks understandably less comfortable walking around after Sugoi "dominates" her. I would attribute all these behaviors to -anxiety- and NOT a true-blue struggle for "dominance".
While I think @brada1878 is right about dropping the Dominance Theory before it starts but I know it's hard to avoid using words like "dominance" for these behaviors. These pups are both showing fairly frightening (anxiety-based) behaviors that are obviously escalating the tension here, imo. The stiff posturing, the hackles going, the t-posturing and the mounting are all behaviors meant to intimidate as far as doggy body language goes and the air-licking looks to be (as previously said) a calming signal... but may signify as much anxiety as the more intimidating body-language can.
From the dog-owner side of my brain...
My reaction when I see dogs acting this way is to distract them at the first signs of tension. I tend to walk between my dogs and get their attention by speaking softly (but not in a way that will instigate excitement) or call them and throw a toy or get their attention and give them a silly command like "high five" to get their mind off what their focusing on. If it does escalate to the fight, I always grab the instigator (not necessarily the dog that comes out "on top" and separate them for a short "time out" (typically not more than 3 seconds or however long it takes for both dogs to calm down). A dog that's having fun is a dog that won't be exhibiting any anxiety-based behaviors (and avoids aggressive displays/behaviors from happening).
I would never, ever, ever let my (or any) dogs "sort it out" or "fight it out" on their own. A vet suggested it to me with London (my malamute) and Gretta (my foster bloodhound) when they were having a few disagreements and I was absolutely mortified. As said, it'll only increase the likelihood of these behaviors showing up on a daily basis and can cause more behavior issues than it hopes to solve.
For some fun exercises on helping dog-on-dog aggression, you can look into "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog". It's a really easy-to-read-and-use fun book to give you positive ways to help extinguish these kinds of behaviors and it should be really exciting and easy for dogs of this age especially.
I LOVE @ayk's suggestion as well! I agree whole-heartedly.
I'm not sure who is who, but the circling of the one dog is definitely starting a fight. Of course Sugoi? is standing there frozen. She knows she's about to get pounced.
This behavior just needs to stop. I wouldn't let them even get into that type of encounter. It will only get worse IMO.
I'll 3rd drop the dominance stuff. And lip licking is supposed to be a calming gesture.
@Sandra - But, I dunno that it matters who is the aggressor and who is the fearful one. I think the solution is the same, don't let them act that way. Separate them when you are not with them. Only let them out supervised, and when you see things start to escalate redirect them with a treat then separate them.
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I agree that at this point, it doesn't matter who the aggressor really is. Both of them are showing extremely undesirable behaviors and working with both of them is the best option and keeping them separated while they aren't supervised until they're sorted out is probably best.
How does one sort out these type of behaviors? Employ a behaviorist? I feel like separating them may not be an optimal long-term solution. So how does one "overcome" these behaviors?
but... I don't believe, at this age and at this level, a behaviorist is really necessary. What IS necessary is reinforcing the desirable behaviors while the pair are together to get the "good" (desired) behaviors to be their default while together. I don't think separating them is an optimal long-term solution either.
As a dog OWNER, at that point, I don't see the reason to even have two dogs in the house. To help my dogs, I've overcome by playing fun games with both of the dogs or taking them out on long hikes/days out where the focus is on exploring and having fun together. It's all about turning a "bad" into a "good".
- First, manage the dogs to reduce conflict and reduce their ability to practice unwanted behaviors (aka "management").
- *Second, make a plan to employ in a supervised setting.
- Third, slowly up the criteria of you program, increasing the length of the supervised time and amount of social contact allowed in increments.
*For the second one, the plan could consist of classical conditioning (positive association), positive reward, and negative punishment. Example...
- (Positive Reward) Treat the pups when they are acting appropriately (this will also employ classical conditioning as it will build a positive association)
- (Negative Punishment) When tension starts to increase, give each pup a time-out. Take them from the situation and put them in a "time out" place for no more than 60 seconds. Rinse and repeat.
- (Classical Conditioning) Interrupt play session often, calling the puppies to you and giving them a treat, then release them to play again. This helps to reinforce impulse control and builds on positive associations.
That's my $0.02
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I don't think learned helplessness is necessarily the full issue. Actually I don't buy into the learned helplessness too much particularly from what I have briefly seen with the breed.
Probably when the one dog became ill and they were separated briefly it upset the balance and without intervention and social outlets the pent up puppy frustrations have escalated and gotten out of hand.
That video is an ugly situation though, which will not get better without intervention and separation for training, with some investment of time... equal yet fair work side by side. Excessive posturing needs to be broken up immediately so tension goes down before any attacks ever happen. Note, often the intervention of a wise very social larger adult to head butt or sit on an out of hand little snot "pupling" helps, without this you will need to step in and when you can't they need to be separate.
I don't know you background on the situation....but my question to you, why are you allowing this to occur? With each incident you are eroding the confidence of one dog further and developing a poor life long pattern for the other. Honestly these two should be playing with many other types of dogs (probably a bit older and larger) separately (away from sibling) so they are able to balance the equation and learn interaction skills.
Also, out of curiosity why do you have two of the exact same age? This is tough to manage particularly with the competitive nature of siblings. If it were me I would place one on contract in another home and work training with the remaining one with lots of wiser social dogs. If your intent is to breed you need to get them to a level where they are more easily integrated with different dogs of all types in any case. These siblings in the future may not get along from all indications, so outside placement seems to me to be an ideal solution. Maybe place one in a pet home with spay neuter contract. Not every dog is meant to be bred, particularly if there may be a health issue.
Again, just food for thought...
Snf
Please do not let this occur anymore. Make any interaction they have with each other fun and make sure they get plenty of exercise. I would suggest the time out method with either dog that shows antagonism and be consistent.
While it is understandable that you want to make it work. Please do not rule out the option the what is best for Sugoi and Futago might be different homes. The puppies deserve a happy healthy home where there is no compromise or substandard conditions. Mental and emotional health is just as important as physical health.
Most people who have been around here for awhile know my story, but it's really worth mentioning again. I almost lost a dog in a situation like this. My two Shibas, about a year apart in age, male and female, had several fights like this. The male was mostly the aggressor, and the female showed much of the same posturing--frozen, trying to avoid a fight. I was too inexperienced to really understand what was going on, and I got a lot of bad advice, like the "they'll sort it out" kind of thing. (They'll sort it out leads to injured or dead dogs. Bad idea). I didn't intervene enough because I didn't know how to. Then the balance shifted and the bullied female hit sexual maturity and started fighting back.
One day, she ripped into the male Shiba and as I was alone, I couldn't separate them. I finally was able to, and got him to the vet. he nearly died. He was there for 6 weeks, and I spent thousands of dollars on his care. That was four years ago. I have had to keep them separated ever since. I tried to bring them back together a couple of times, but she always attacked him again as soon as she had the opportunity to. Dogs don't forget, and if they have a continual series of bad interactions, it is very likely to escalate unless something is done to stop it.
They are very very young to be fighting like this already, and while you MAY be able to get them to tolerate one another, it's going to take a hell of a lot of work. Every fight they have brings builds negative associations with them, and reinforces that the other dog is not to be trusted. This will probably get worse--not better--as they reach maturity.
Right now, you absolutely have to keep them separated if you can't supervise them, and if there is any sign of aggression, then you need to separate them.
Honestly, if it were me? I'd rehome one of them. That would be hard, but like jessika says, it may be that what is best for the dogs is the harder thing. I do live with dogs that need to be continually separated, but it's certainly not easy. I did try to rehome my female after the fight, but you know, she's dog aggressive, low thyroid, has a seizure disorder (discovered years after the fight) and is afraid of strangers, so she's obviously not a dog anyone else really wants. So I kept her, and my male who I love like crazy, and I just manage it, but it's not easy at all, and any mistake could mean a dog gets really hurt. If I had to do it all over again--if I were in a situation like yours--I would rehome one of the dogs. It could very well save one of the dog's lives.
@Crispy....It's hard to believe any vet would say "let them work it out" but I know people DO say that! There is a local "behavioralist," one who I actually did consult years ago, who told me the same thing. After Toby nearly died, I told my vet about this person, and she said the person had said the same thing to some people with GSDs. The younger dogs ended up killing the older GSD in that case. It just makes me crazy that anyone would ever suggest letting them "work it out" like that. UGH.
eta: on a side note, that moose thing was just wierd. While his overall advice wasn't bad, the moose analogy was just odd. And moose are super bad ass--not terribly smart, but pretty bad tempered, and they DO NOT back down from a fight, and are usually not at all impressed by dogs. Why should they be? They're taller than most cars, and they can and do kill dogs (and on occasion, people). They don't need to be afraid of dogs! Or at least this was my experience with moose growing up in Alaska.
Seems like we have a lot of articles to read up at today
Now firstly, yes, we do go out with them daily and it hasn't been a problem. Not even now, they are even the best of friends from start to finish. Inquisitive, social and eager to please, we go for long walks where they can dig holes, chase after leaves and jump over and against each other without a snarl or a growl. We can go to town with them, have one do the groceries while the other waits outside (with two eager pups and lots of comments of how cute they are ). We can go for a drink where there are a lot of people with them behaving just perfectly, knowing exactly what is expected from them. Nobody minds us bringing the doggies inside as they act just wonderful for which they always are rewarded btw. We go to puppy class with them, where they are praised for their obedience and intelligence, once again with a training focused on rewards for positive behavior. And we certainly plan to keep up going afterwards, maybe even pick up a sport or something if they enjoy it enough.
Maybe it's just because English isn't my native tongue, making me search for the right words and formulate better the things I wanted to ask and say... but it is due to our wish NOT to have these fights and arguments between them, that I posted the videos. We want to find out why they act like this all of a sudden, until a few days ago this never occurred, not once. Now we keep them separate practically all the time, playing, eating, even sleeping... all these they did together without any problems, so we do know how good they can be together and want to work towards this situation again.
What did we try so far?
- pulling them away from each other after which we tried to "ease" them back together while holding them, trying to keep them distracted/rewarded for keeping their attention on the one holding her (toys, sweets, cookies) while we moved closer together... ending up with them growling and menacing each other even after 15 mins.
- pulling them away from each other after which we put them in different rooms/benches, ending up with them growling at each other through the bench and as soon as they got sight from one another.
- letting them "settle" their argument under supervision, ending up with dogs who finished whatever they had quarrels about and after a while be friends again... until the next misunderstanding between them. But it is not the behavior we want to see as it will only escalate and maybe bring one of them harm, physically or psychologically.
They are never left alone, apart for the night where everyone has to get some sleep. During the evenings they used to fall asleep next to their bench, on the couch or on the rug not minding being put together until the morning after as we went upstairs. Sunday we did set up the second bench, so they can fall asleep each in their own environment without a yelp till the following day as they were absolutely not happy with each other that evening. It has been thus since.
There is always someone there, when I had to go to the hospital with my youngest daughter, the oldest came over from his own home to "babysit" the pups. So even if they do get in a fight (inside the house it is less harsh), they are never unsupervised and we always step in when it gets too far. Apart for those videos i wanted to make to get some helpful insights on how to interpret the signs, we usually don't let it go farther then some menacing growls before putting them in their bench/different rooms.
We are very positive this will be a period in their lives that will get better and are very willing to make it work. On a side note... they are really twins, not just siblings. Their brother and 2 sisters are very different from outlook, that's why we wanted them to stay together and even after all this, we don't regret it for one moment. All this is not a problem, but a challenge to make it work. Even if they have been with us for only a short time (2 months now), we are very certain it will improve, we know them better then we ever believed we could. But I do think it's understandable to feel doubt in how you handle it and ask advice from people with more experience and knowledge of how a Shikoku looks at the world.
Thank you again for all the effort so far, it's much appreciated!
Sandra
I appreciate you putting these videos up. I have a question for you. Is there ever a time (an hour or so, if not more) where each of the dogs have alone time with you or Vince? Even in a two dog household where both are not related, dogs can form bonds with each other that can make them a little more difficult to manage. What more when they are identical twins? I take it these are the two that were sharing the same placenta?
Maybe some scheduled considerable time alone from each other working with you will help you better manage them when they are together. This suggestion, of course, is in addition to the other management tips others have given above.
Do you have plans to neuter/spay them after their first or second heat? Or are you keeping them intact?
Jesse
@ Sandra: I would like to say thanks for taking these comments so openly and sharing your situation with video footage. This is very helpful so everyone can see exactly how your dogs are behaving. Going back over the footage I will say again that as soon as you see the prowling/tip toeing around and very still posture of the other, even the slightest of postures, it's time to intervene through distraction and or obedience activities.
I know females can often be darned uncooperative with each other cruising for an argument and with dogs from the same litter sometimes it's more pronounced on the home turf. As females start reaching their cycles the bitches often behave worse.
Management is a good option, however, keep in mind that being human we sometimes fail to be 100% and if you need to turn over the care duties to someone else, for example should you have to leave town etc. etc. the success factor drops even lower. It is tough to really manage and stay on top of in some cases. You may get 97% but the 3% may be holy hell.
I will say again that some bitches may have a hard time getting along even if you have done everything right .... living with dogs that are difficult can really put a strain on the whole family too. Always keep in the back of your mind what you will do should things not iron out. As mentioned previously, it is important to give each animal the room to mentally grow, even if that means placement elsewhere should the relationship between them remain strained. Placement is easier on everyone when the dogs are younger. Giving a dog opportunity to develop with someone else is a gift too. Although the behavior may be turbulent with each other currently, in another environment and with other dogs it can be entirely different. I am not pushing moving one dog out, just pointing out that it can be harder on everyone if you wait on making decisions that require rehoming, particularly in the case of social development for each personality. The sooner it happens the better for the dog(s) usually.
Good luck to you....the girls are beautiful and I am sure have a lot to offer, particularly in an optimal environment that meets their individual needs.
Snf
I'll also echo the rest of Snf's post about management and considering rehoming one of the girls. Management is really hard, and very stressful. There are days when I am utterly exhausted by having to manage my three. And there are ALWAYS failures, no matter how hard you try, and when dogs really hate one another, it goes from 0-to huge fight in seconds, and dogs can get really hurt. Even with us doing this for years, we have a couple of slip ups a year, and they are super stressful to everyone, and of course with the dogs, reinforce to Toby that other dogs = danger, so he becomes more and more dog aggressive and cautious. It's heartbreaking to me to see how he is so careful now when he goes outside to make sure he knows that it is safe, etc.
Also, in my experience, dogs don't get better about fighting one with one another with age--instead, as the move into puberty/adulthood, they tend to fight MORE with the dogs they already have issues with. You say you are certain they will improve. I would hope that they would, but I find that unlikely, honestly. The level of arousal and fighting I saw in those videos is the same level I have seen with my two Shibas, and they will NEVER be able to be together again. I did speak to a good behavioralist about them, too, and after observing them, she said that she was not at all optimistic for them ever being together again, and perhaps the best we could hope for was a training program that would give us time to quickly get them apart if they accidently got together again. That was the best we could hope for, and given Bel's erratic behavior, she wasn't even convinced that would work. Seeing that kind of behavior in your puppies is really sad
@others: Once outside, both Sugoi and Futago appear to be soulmates, closest and best friends, nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever. Outside our home and yard they don't fight, are relaxed, play together and get along nicely and comfortably without a single incident of growling or lunging - people will honestly believe they're the two nicest dogs they've ever came across... and they're probably right.
However, once back inside our home, that's when the growling starts, and ultimately the fighting ensues... usually it doesn't come to that though: we take every action to prevent it from escalating further. But it's always Sugoi that starts the growling and Futago merely responds to it by growling back.
I think these fights between them are mostly related to social status. It kind of looks to be a struggle between the two concerning the right for "space" near us and the right for "attention" from us. I'm reading up on sibling rivalry topics on the net and already figured out a thing or two we might be able to try out...
I will not rule out re-homing in the best interest of the dogs if there really is no other alternative, but I'm not willing to give up THAT easily
Bibi and thanks
Vince.
OK so we have some direction. We're looking at behavior management. Well first thing's first. I would make sure they both have their "safe place". I'm not sure if you have separate crates for the girls. If you don't then I would invest in some. Since they are probably potty trained, I would just get the size they would use as adults.
Secondly, come up with a schedule that works for them. For example, I have a female who starts picking on my male at around noon. She becomes a real beast to him, taking his treats, and walking around him growling or making snarky noises. I learned really quick when she came into the home that noon is naptime! She is put into her crate for at least an hour. She will usually fall asleep in no time. She loves her crate by the way, and it has controlled her reactiveness. My male was also taught not to go near her crate. He's not allowed near the opening or inside. That's her place.
Our schedule was this:
1. Wake up in the AM and go for a morning walk right out of the crate.
(Arguments started with her in the morning when I would cuddle with them both in bed for a minute, so I stopped all that. She would pick on him if I was petting him not her.)
2. Feed breakfast one in the kitchen and one in the dining room separated by a baby gate. They ate about 3 feet from each other like this. This allows them to eat next to each other but with protection from the other. It also builds a positive association. My female was very food aggressive when she came to me. This allowed them to both eat and my male be safe.
3. Rest inside or play outside. Koda would usually play or take a nap while I had alone time with Mei.
4. Noon was naptime as you know.
5. Afternoon outing, hiking, walking, playing at the park, etc.
6. Dinner (fed again with the gate up).
7. Mei's 2nd quiet time in her crate. This gave time for me to cuddle with Koda and give him that one on one time he needed.
8. Play inside.
9. Bedtime in two different rooms.
Whatever you do, the day has to go smoothly and limit confrontations. Positive associations need to be built up between the girls. It takes a lot of work when you have a reactive female. I know. It's difficult. But I can honestly say that two years later Mei is soooooo much better. She's an awesome dog now. We don't have to obide by a schedule really. She puts herself in her crate at around noon and will give me and Koda alone time in the evening.
I will say though that she is no longer at my house. She lives with my parents. I was fostering her when I took her, and decided not to adopt her because behavior management was tough. She does come to stay for weekends, and my parents travel a lot, so we will be together for three weeks in March.
Hopefully you can find a schedule that will work for you.
Also, those info sources tend to put a lot of weight on the "nurture" side of the argument (often from the "balanced dog" meme), but please remember, as young as 3 day old, you can see a puppies' individuality. There have been plenty of scientific studies released that show personality and individuality is the factor of genetics more than it is of a factor of environment.
Also, dogs can fight over resources, and resources can be anything they value (food, your attention, freedom, a toy, water, sniffing something...). These arguments (over resources) often have little to do with social rank/status. I personally would not worry about the social structure of these *two* puppies (hardly a "pack"), and focus on treating them as individuals and addressing the issue from each one's perspective.
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You know how it's like with forums such as these: you can post 1 single question, receive 100 replies containing 10.000 different opinions, tactics and strategies. But that's not the point: what's really important is that we read/assimilate all of your feedback, somehow consolidate all valuable input which we believe might help us deal with the issues, and try to put this to some good use. In the end it's up to us to determine what's best for our twin in our situation at home... folks here don't seem they're judging, just incredibly helpful - don't worry; all ideas and suggestions are welcome
@brada1878: thanks for pointing it out - we're going to take the info we find on the net with a grain of salt. Still, some of the info out there can prove to be useful, skewed to fit the alpha/dominance model or not. Can't ignore the fact that this "theory" has helped both humans and dogs before. We basically are going to have to look past the alpha-omega thing and figure out what works best for our two doggies instead...
Little is known about dog twins and their genetics. They're a twin alright, no doubt about that, but they do have distinct personalities (and some similarities too), so I believe there's quite a number of factors involved apart from genetics and environment. Anyway, for now I believe separating them for a while is the right thing to do to: Each needs enough breathing room (space, time, playing, also being left alone at times) in order to further develop their own individuality - it will definitely help building self-confidence which they will need in order to get along comfortably.
I know they're pretty young but it sounds like you are doing obedience with them. In addition to the management and building positive associations I think it would be helpful for you to work on strategies against resource guarding. Spending lots of time with them individually would help with that as well. When you are working on training at home have you been doing it together or do you do one on one too?
Management post fight requires more than separation or attempts to distract. It might be helpful to take each into a separate room after a fight and really break their attention from the previous situation and not to emerge until you have. They're young but perhaps get an obedience session going in the room. Work until their attention is wholly focused on you and what they're doing in the moment not on what happened before, otherwise the fighting may restart as soon as they see each other.
I think with higher drive dogs it can take a lot more effort to refocus their attention.
It began with a fight that our foster dog, ShaSha, started. He attacked my male puppy, Ghidora, over a toy and when Ghidora yelped, the girls rushed into the room to join the fray. Gojira attacked ShaSha (who still had a hold of Ghidora), but Gryphon attacked Gojira. Gryphon was easily pulled out of the fight and put into the hallway. A moment more, and I was able to get Ghidora out into the hallway as well. It was much more difficult to get Gojira to let go of ShaSha. She had an iron grip on his ear and it took all my strength to pry her jaws apart, while sitting on top of both of them. I got bit twice by ShaSha in the process, and still have the wound on my knee. When I finally got Gojira to let go and put her in the hallway, the girls immediately began going for each other with gusto. I managed to get the door shut (so ShaSha couldn't join in again!). I then picked up Gojira, who is "only" 55lbs or so, and marched her outside - both females still struggling to attack one another the whole way.
After things had calmed down, I decided to keep all of the dogs separate from one another until ShaSha was adopted. I had no kennels at the time so management was *not* easy at all with four large dogs. Fortunately I only had to do this for a week, because ShaSha already had an adoptive family waiting to take him home. But it turned out that having Gryphon and Gojira apart for a week was a very bad idea. They'd been in scuffles before, but for some reason this one really stuck with them. I guess having a whole week to be angry at one another really blew the incident out of proportion in their minds. Then we found out that Gryphon had pyometra. She had an emergency hysterectomy, and was laid up for another week with a cone on her head. Gojira *hated* the cone. Just seeing it on Gryphon sent her into a rage. With Gryphon recovering from surgery, we had to delay reintroductions for even longer.
We tried to put them back together multiple times with no success. Each time resulted in a worse fight than before. My dogs, who normally respect our low walk-through gate (3' tall) on the driveway, began opening it and jumping over it to attack one another. Gojira once went over the gate *and* nosed open our closed sliding door to get into the house after Gryphon, who was in the kitchen. Tension was worse around the doors and difficult to stop a fight from happening between our legs every time we tried to go outside. Ultimately we ended up locking the sliding door entirely, and going out the front door and around the side of the house to get to the back yard. It was the only way to have security and peace. We kept the blinds on the slider closed, so that the girls would not stand at the door staring and growling at each other. We did manage to put Ghidora back with both girls without incident, so we had two dogs in the house and one outside, or vice versa, at any given time.
A month later I went to Texas to visit my friends there, and I was pretty much at my wits end. My dogs were only 4 years old and 1 year old. A month of management was terribly stressful for my husband and I, and I was looking at another 6 to 10 years of having to live that way - I wasn't sure I could deal with it. I was ready to cancel my trip to Japan to pick up another female (coming up in March), because there was no way I could introduce another dog into my pack the state they were in. I even thought about rehoming Gryphon, despite being with us longer and loving her to bits. She has many admirers who would take her in a heartbeat, including good friends who are only a short drive away and we see multiple times weekly, and who have dogs of their own that Gryphon loves to play with. Giving away Gojira would have meant giving up on my shows and kennel, which I couldn't do. But I love both of my girls so much, and it was heartbreaking even considering rehoming one of them.
When I got home, I lit a fire under my husband to have kennels built. We'd planned to have dog runs for a while, but had never gotten around to it. We even had a nice, very level concrete slab and large rubbermaid shed ready to go. We just needed some fencing people to come out and do the chain link. They came out the weekend after I got back and we immediately moved the dogs into the runs. We put Ghidora in the middle and Gojira and Gryphon on either side of him, so that they wouldn't be biting at each other through the chain link. We had an "air lock" like area the runs opened on to, separate from the rest of the yard, which also helped with getting a dog out or putting a dog away. Management went from being a nightmare to being the simplest thing in the world. We didn't have to hide a dog in a bathroom or office while trying to move one dog from the bedroom to outside. We didn't have to go all the way around the house to get to the back yard, or keep the sliding door locked all the time. Most of all, there was never the fear at doorways, looking for where the other dog is so we know its safe to go through - quickly and furtively.
Whats more, seeing each other constantly seemed to dramatically reduce the tension between the females. We still didn't put them back together, but there was significantly less growling at night in their crates in the bedroom. Gojira would stand stiffly by Gryphon's crate and stare at her, but that was the worst of it. (We of course would not let her do that, and would make both dogs lie down and/or distract them until they settled for bed.) After a couple nights it improved so much (ignoring each other entirely in the bedroom) that we had hope we would be able to introduce them again. We had at this point called a few canine behaviorists, who didn't even listen to our story and the progress we had already made; upon hearing the word "Akita" they practically hung up on me, saying it was impossible to make it work. One was willing to charge me $200 to come out and evaluate them himself, but he said that it was unlikely and by the tone of his voice he had already made up his mind. We decided to try it on our own.
We did so with extreme caution. Both dogs were muzzled and on short leads. At first, we would only have them in the same room together. We each handled one of the dogs at opposite sides of the room, and rewarded them for ignoring one another and paying attention to us. We did this for very brief periods over a few days, gradually getting closer to each other. We never got within striking distance inside the house. We kept them able to see and smell each other 100% of the time now, which seemed to dramatically ease tensions. When we felt that they could share a sidewalk (still muzzled of course), we began doing walks together. I admit, we had some silly dominance-related theories about which dog should be allowed to walk in front of the other. It probably had no bearing. Eventually they were walking side-by-side like old times. Gryphon earned the freedom not to wear a muzzle, but Gojira's continued stiff posture from time to time meant she had to keep it on for a while longer.
After a successful walk, with dogs too tired to start trouble, we would then let them lie together in the living room. Gojira was still muzzled and both dogs had leashes on for easily separating them if necessary. At first my husband and I would down-stay both dogs at our feet (sitting at different couches) and keep one foot on the leash so the dog couldn't go anywhere while all four of us cooled off. Eventually - tentatively - we stopped "hovering" over them so much. Gryphon was given freedom to roam first, because by this point she was acting no different with Gojira than she would with Ghidora or any other dog. We made sure that they never went to the water bowl together, in case it was a resource that Gojira felt she had to fight over. Obviously, we had no food or treats for either of them. After being at this stage for a while, and seeing no posturing from Gojira at all for days, we let them be together both loose and unmuzzled (although still on leashes).
Now they're best friends again, and there is only rarely signs of the fights we once had. We haven't had a "real" fight since before I went to Texas, but on occasion Gojira will posture (mostly over food or a toy) and Gryphon tends to be pushy and domineering towards her when she gets excited. Out of this whole mess, Gojira has become notable toy and food possessive, when she wasn't before. We have had a couple scuffles (I hesitate to call them real fights) over toys, dryfood, and rawhide candy canes (Christmas presents the dogs received). We separated the dogs quickly. We found that the faster we put them back together or at least were able to be near each other, the easier it was. Now they only get a brief cooling off of a few minutes at most, typically in their runs which are now side-by-side with Ghidora on the far end.
The three things I attribute to our success - 1) being near one another, yet unable to get at each other, as much as possible 2) long, tiring walks together and 3) extremely slow and cautious reintroductions. The number one thing I can say is that I LOVE our dog runs. I think I would have given up without them, and they made such an amazing improvement both to the headache and stress of management as well as the attitudes of the dogs towards each other.
Do note that the entire process was about a month of terrible fighting and THREE months of slowly working it out. They had been best friends since Gojira was 8 weeks old, over a year of history together. It didn't matter. I wouldn't say with such certainty that you are sure you will work through it - there is no guarantee that you will, and believe me if it goes on for another month it certainly wont feel like it will ever be possible. If your dogs are as alike as you say they are, its entirely possible that they'll both strongly hold grudges for the rest of their lives. I know it wouldn't have worked out with my dogs if both were as grumpy as Gojira; it was only Gryphon's ultimately good and pleasing nature which saved them.
Thanks everyone for your inputs/suggestions, although this is not my thread, I am really learning a lot! I think it's really interesting using these "positive" methods in contrast to Cesar Milan's dominance methods. I have been reading up on the Alpha/dominance methods and it makes me wonder how this guy could still have his own show.
@poeticdragon: Thanks for the lengthy post. It was really helpful and learned a lot from it
Indoors we now keep them separated in different rooms for the time being in order to keep the peace and give them space to play etc. (not the entire day of course). The funny thing is that we can walk them outside together at the same time without any trouble; they play and have fun outside together like the best of friends. So it's definitely something associated with being indoors.
During the night (and parts of the day), they remain crated about 6 feet apart (they are able to see one another)... so they are fully aware of each others presence (not that I think one can actually trick any Shikoku into believing otherwise). When both are being crated, they will first look and growl at one another briefly from inside the crate, but shortly after; they relax, lie down and remain quiet. You won't hear any bark or growl during the night, they will be sleeping like a baby only 6 feet apart from one another till we come collect them the next morning.
Fortunately, it's not so bad that they can't be together. Today we've managed to have them spend some time together (unleashed) sharing the same room (albeit not too close). It's fine as long as we can keep them focused on something they truly enjoy, like each having a yummy bone to chew. The growling then only starts once their focus shifts from that to one another, so a second or two after they make eye contact, regardless of what they are doing or where we are standing (not even touching them).
I think it would greatly benefit both dogs to spend time apart from each other so they don't have to compete for attention. Perhaps rotate them between family members for 1 on 1 time. Training during this time is good, but make sure you're doing other things too.
Secondly, I think you're placing too much emphasis on the fact that they are twins. Yes, it is unique, but they are still individuals. I don't know if you have ever met human twins, but all the ones I know hate when people assume they are the same and are "in tune" with one another.
It's interesting, too, to have our two feuding dogs stories in one thread, so people can see different ways it's worked out. We have to continue with management, and always will. I have tried to get the two Shibas back together on several occasions, and they have taken walks together, relatively calmly, etc, but Bel is so volatile that if she gets overaroused by anything, she would attack Toby, and I just can't put him through that. the thing is, they both sleep downstairs together at night, Bel in the giant wire (Akita-sized) crate, and Toby free, and they are quite docile with one another when she is crated. They sniff each other through the crate, and act relatively normal, but if there is no barrier, she'll go for him immediately, and often when he is outside she "stalks" him from in the house, and flings herself at the window growling at him. And he's terrified of her, of course, but Toby's reaction to threats has always been a good offense, so he'll just throw himself in a fight, and then of course, he's the one who gets hurt. So after several tries that didn't go well, I'm resigned to keeping them separate forever, and I also have to keep Toby away from the Akita (Toby bit Oskar as a puppy and neither seems to have forgotten that either).
Part of my situation is exacerbated by Bel's medical issues: in addition to being low thryoid, she's got a seizure disorder, and her behavior is, even when medicated, often quite erratic and unpredictable. She's not shown any aggression toward Oskar at all, thankfully, so they get to be together, and toby has his room. We're able to make management work because we have a big sunroom that opens to the yard where Toby hangs out a lot of the time, and we let them out in the yard at different times. It's not ideal, but it does work.