Kai ken - Good days and bad days?
She had a bad day I beleive, I took her for a walk this morning and she was terrified, she didnt want to sniff - walk ahead of me - or nothing, she just had her head lowered and kept looking up at me , then down again ... the previous day she was "hey lets go, i wanna go faster " --- im not sure if its the energy im giving off or what, it was really cold this morning and had a winter storm, and i kinda wanted to skip the walk xD ... but i thought about her, and im doing this all for her --- Again in my introduction post -- Shes very shy/fearful. Shes still getting used to me, and half the time she thinks "Whats this crazy lady doing behind me, oh crap -- im on a leash, i cant get away!! " --- Any ideas? Think i should get 1 on 1 training with a trainer, im not sure where to bring her, --- I want the best for her!! I tried doing some clicker training and she shut down on me, she did not like the sound of that, so i changed it to using my tongue/ and hit it against the top of my mouth for 2 fast clicks, that worked better.
Comments
Maybe she just doesn't need to be walked yet. Mei was like this when I got her. She was fearful of the leash and walking. I eased into it. Instead, I would have some really good play sessions with her on the lawn.
Do you know how she is with other dogs yet?
Oh, and yes Kais can have good and bad days.
You said she is still getting used to you? How long have you had her?
Good luck! I hope you get more experienced folks' advice with Kai.
If you are in the U.S. Truly dog friendly is a good start. http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4
If no one is near you from that list, contact the closest person who may know of someone that might be able to help.... call to talk etc etc.
If after meeting/training session it is determined that something more needs to be added to the plan. A certified animal behaviorist might be in order. http://www.certifiedanimalbehaviorist.com/
I would first go with a truly dog friendly trainer and explain the clicker scares your dog and you need help with the bonding process. Also make sure your dog has had a medical check for any undetected underlying problems. Dogs that are not feeling well often behave oddly be it from arthritic pain to other problems they can not tell you about.
Good luck
Snf
Thanks SNF, I will check out those sites.
I have tried food on the walk, she does not want to take it, if i try to approach her too slow or too quick she will try to run / move away from me on the lead.
I have not seen her around other dogs yet - the breeder told me she got along with her other kais just fine
she still is adapting to my GSD, i have only seen Duke sniff her while shes in the crate, thats all the socializing they get right now, if they are both out in the open, she flutters her mouth, like shes about to bark/growl/snap and her eyes turn triangular, and her ears perk way up.
She has been recently spayed, and i am letting her rest probably till the middle of next week, untill then she is pretty much house-ridden. i let her rest alot now, i give her lots of water, she hasnt been eating much at all. maybe 1/3 cup of food a day. I know its not much, but i cant force feed her.
i don't think two weeks is much. I would think you are on the right path though, in being understanding that it might take some time for her to learn to trust yall. I wonder if her being spayed has anything to do with it? I have no experience here.
And that is about all the advice I can give. I just remember when I got Toki, I figured out that in order to train him anything, like to crate train, he had to trust me that I would let him out pee (in addition to a million other factors too, but that is besides my point). It just takes time, she'll get there
I'm not sure why everyone thinks that a puppy must bond with their human right away. Koda looked at me like I was a crazy lady for the first couple of weeks, but he was just a puppy and needed me.
I wouldn't worry about pushing her to go on walks and on a leash if she's not leash trained.
Here are some things I do to help the bonding situation. You can use what you feel comfortable with. I like to take naps with new dogs. Not sure why, but I think it just helps build trust. I also feed meals out of my hand. I like to lay on the ground with them as much as possible. And I have always found that belly rubs work. Simply put, make sure that all good things come from you and no scary things. She'll be yours in no time.
>> Based on your other posts, could this be because you're trying to "Cesar Millan" your soft scared little Kai Ken?
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Nicole Wilde- "Help for your Fearful Dog"
Patricia McConnell has a nice (albeit short) book - The Cautious Canine
Ally Brown- "Scaredy Dog" is also good
I am sure Pat Miller also has written on this subject. She's good. I bet Ian Dunbar has some helpful and correct methods and perspectives- search around on DogStarDaily.com
Sarah Wilson- "My Smart Puppy" is good basic and kind training- she also talks about shy dogs, and she neednt be a baby puppy to do these exercises.
Peggy Swager- "Training the Hard to Train Dog" has a very good chapter on shy dogs
Ultimately, make sure you aren't inadvertently ADDING any fear to her- and sometimes we all do this without intending to as we wish they'd trust us already, and why cant she SEE that nothings going to hurt her here? or what tiny irrelevant thing that just happened spooked her, or I looked at her the wrong way, or knocked the gate over *BANG*, dropped a pan. Im sure you get the picture- but its up to her to decide that.
We must refrain from trying to ACT upon a situation that really benefits more from some INACTION. (what's that Taoist saying? "Do by not doing...") We cant make her be ready. Dont worry about fading treats, socialization and stuff yet. Show her by your actions that she can trust you not to force her into anything and as others have said, that good stuff begins with you.
It can take 10 days for a dogs stress chemicals to fully dissipate after a single scare/incident-- during this time their stress bucket is full but slowly draining. It is very easy to overflow it with small stresses that wouldnt be a problem with an empty stress bucket. Pretend your kai girl is on vacation- nothing should worry her, youve got it covered, till she can relax. A lot has happened in the 2 weeks since she left her breeder. Socialization must always have a happy ending for her to become less afraid of the stimulus, if shes spooky, then you'd be impressing on her more fear of the things you are trying to introduce her to. It is better to wait, the neighborhood will be there. New home, in heat- did you say she also had surgery? that's a lot...create 10 days of ease and calm and predictability for her, then begin to build slowly.
The clicker is not as critical as the fact that you mark something you want precisely and unemotionally- some people use a clicky ball point pen (you know, where the tip clicks in and out?) for a softer sound. You can also use your voice if you can repeat your "click word" exactly the same every time. For example, you could also just say "yep!"
best of luck!
I have not tried any training, only that couple times with a clicker and she didnt like it so i stopped and put it away.
i havent seen any improvement yet, she is the same.. it will be 7 days on Monday since she's been out of surgery, she has been in her crate resting most of the week, but she hasn't been eating much (at all)
i will check out those books,
and i will add improvement if i see anything in her change,
i also want to ask if we can try to pick her up and put her on our laps, ???? she tries to scurry away once shes on us. were just trying to get her closer to us.
From a person who is not ashamed to say he has tried it all, the good, the bad and the ugly. The best method for my little pack is to treat them as members of a pack and not a "dog you just got." (not implying you are doing so atm) Your pack must have a social order of some type.
Raising Saru was what taught me this the most because he suffered the brunt of my first-time ignorance. I tried to force him to act like the ideal dog... that did not turn out too well, It only damaged trust because he saw me as 'the mean guy that tries to get me to do weird things'. Then one day it clicked, that he wants to belong, he always did, but I was destroying his opportunities to reciprocate and partake in a social interaction. As soon as i stopped what i was doing and tried to understand his needs, we began to make progress. So really, it wasn't direct action but rather inaction of a sort that allowed the bond to grow. (fyi it took Saru about 3 weeks before he would eat a full portion around me and about a month before he would drink with me in eye sight.. i feel your concern)
I'm refining this skill with Ciqala. While she is more social in general she's all shock and awe and rarely puts action behind her bark. So far, my experience with Kai is that they are not nearly as forgiving as other dogs. maybe shikoku??? But, my theory on this is, they take social order more serious than shibas for example because they are slightly more interdependent (not helpless). If you break rank, they'll remember that for quite a while.
Example:
Shiba: F-- you for trying to touch or otherwise interact with me, I'm gong over here now. Don't bother following me.
Kai: F-- you for being socially awkward, I'm barking at you now and don't try that again. Learn some manners.
Sleep time seems to be a key bonding point also, try giving her a spot of medium proximity from where you sleep. Let her know by clearly denoting a sleeping spot, "this is where I sleep, that is where you sleep." Not really a dominance game but more of a here's your bed, goodnight kind of thing. it takes a lot of trust and carpet cleaner on your part not to just kennel her up and head off to bed- but in the long run you learn a lot. The more "citizenship" she shows, the closer she is allowed near a more ideal spot like the foot of the bed. **OR** if you wake up and find she's in a different spot, move her bed you made there. see if she stays. if so, then you've just help create a social rule and strengthened your bond with her. Congratulate her for going to bed each time to reinforce the behavior. you both know, when its time to sleep, dog goes here owner goes there, BAM. If she's anything like Ciqala you'll wake up with a sleepy Kai on your neck
Kais are pretty smart, but they don't seem to immediately aim to please, it's more of a VIP club deal with them, they scout you out, you scout them out, eventually one of you joins the club and things get stronger from there. above all else, don't push things, if you feel your needs/expectations are getting the best of you in trust building exercises walk away and try again later. Once you supply her with the security she needs you can start being a leader and not just an owner.
- no matter how you choose to design it, there must be some type of social dynamic. it must be reliable, safe and mutually beneficial.
best of luck, hope my late night essay helps.
"I tried to force him to act like the ideal dog... that did not turn out too well, It only damaged trust because he saw me as 'the mean guy that tries to get me to do weird things'. "
"As soon as i stopped what i was doing and tried to understand his needs, we began to make progress. So really, it wasn't direct action but rather inaction of a sort that allowed the bond to grow."
EXACTLY.
Goodness it is such a short time....you are expecting a lot. As you go along simply readjust your expectations. Your dog will let you know.
At this point her body is adjusting to the drop in hormones and recovery even a week later. Health plays a big role in mental stability, you can not ask for more until she is feeling better for mind body connection. Look at the whole body, nutrition too. Mentally adjusting takes a lot out of a dog. She needs to be at her optimal balance so that decision fatigue does not overwhelm her. Give it waaaaay more time. You can not force what she is not ready to cope with physically or mentally.
Yandaharr writes: "As soon as i stopped what i was doing and tried to understand his needs, we began to make progress. So really, it wasn't direct action but rather inaction of a sort that allowed the bond to grow."
Such great advice in regard to acclimation!!!
Yuri_ 24: here is some additional information that has some great wisdom:
http://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/tread-lightly/
Also look at the video clip "High value rewards for changing behavior" on the right of that page
Slight of hand:
http://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/no-sleight-of-hand/
Short cuts to enlightenment:
http://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/shortcuts-to-enlightenment/
You will get there and you will learn a lot from your dog : )
Snf
You may be in this for a VERY long haul, a (dog)lifetime with a fearful dog is not what we imagine and get excited about when we get a new puppy/dog, it is a wrenching experience, but there it is, and as Patrice said, you will learn a lot from this dog. Sage is now 6 and he makes progress now and then, entirely because I let him on his own and quit 'training' him and am 'supporting' him instead. BUT he will never ever be happy with trips, outings, making new dog friends, going backpacking, or even a simple ride to the post office in the car. But I accept that he doesnt HAVE to, I built a good life for him around his actual needs and enjoyment and love him to bits anyway.
He and I forgive each other for our imperfections and I have learned to listen to him, believe him ("ok, that thing there wouldnt scare anyone, buuuut... I believe you that it scares/pressures you, and its okay, we dont have to go there.") and have made the things he does enjoy, the places he does feel safe, the friends he does love be frequent and never sullied. I believe we cannot foist healing upon the dogs, as with people they need to decide for themselves when they are ready to step ahead, or not. We need to be there to make it safe for them, and to remove the pressure for them. A book that is not really a dog book that helped my perspective a lot is "A Friend Like Henry" about raising an autistic child. (A dog - Henry- became a vehicle for communication with the child, which is why it is sortof a dog book, but not really)
Snf
I remember I had a huge breakthrough with Bel when I realized that really I needed to accept what it was she could give and not try to "force" (however gently) her into things that were beyond what she was capable of doing at that point in time. It came through this forum: Brad had posted something about how some dogs might never really be comfortable outside of their home environment, and maybe that was ok, and then because I tend towards having "revelations" that are obvious to other people (ha!) I really did think, wow, I don't have to try and "fix" Bel (beyond working on her health issues) but I can accept where she's at and work from that point. and she's not miraculously able to go more places anymore, but she's more confident around the house. (There are other reasons for that too, but I think just letting go of the idea that I had to take her out and challenge her helped her a lot, because I was not seeing that for her, sometimes just the daily life of the household is a challenge, and a taking her into a new, strange places is just more than she can cope with).
Anyway, great post! Thanks!
her sleeping spot is her crate right now, once she gets on a really good outside schedule, were gonna get a nice bed for her in the bedroom, she still needs to get more comfortable in the house.
i also stopped hand feeding her too, she eats in her crate now 2x a day.
I have been working hard with her on the lead, and its been paying off, --- I love her tail when it furly curls around and starts to wag -- and she looks for attention from duke on outside walks, they give eachother eskimo kisses !!! > <!!!!!!!
But inside the house -- she transforms and shuts down --- She really does like being outside more.
Ill check out the links later, it justs 8am and i need to take my pups out:D --thanks guys -- very appreciate that
ill stop trying to do weird things, but i know i do weird things with my german shepherd lol, i sing to him ALOT, and he likes it -- think :P
lol
im also starting to train my GSD for his conformation, going to try and show him, so i am prepping him for it --- I somehow know what to do -- just gonna have problems with the gait i beleive, and standing still. )))) OFF TOPIC!! SOORRRYY!! lol