Working with a shy dog/Kai Ken? Your stories?
Hi there!
I adopted Travis (now renamed Loki because it suits him more and he seems to like it) the Kai-Ken about 3 weeks ago. He's a sweet boy. Doesn't bite, bark, respect my cat, or shows any signs of aggressive; however, he is incredibly shy and spooks very easily, especially when he goes out for walks. Granted, it has only been three weeks but he seemed totally OK when he was here (walked around the house, explore, lick my face.etc) until my coworkers barged in and scared the living daylights out of him and ever since then, he's been pretty shy and usually lays and sleeps all day. He doesn't jump on couches and be on the 'look out' like a lot of Kais, dart after wild life (we have a lot!) And actually gets spooked pretty bad when he sees any kind of animal in his path.
I am in the process of trying to boost his confidence and help his shyness. I am having Peggy, a Kai-Ken breeder, come over soon to give me some tips, but I'd LOVE to know what you guys suggest! Especially if you've worked with a shy Japanese dog before, how long did it take to help them, your methods.etc I really want this to work out and make Loki in a confident, happy Kai-Ken!
If you would like me to post more about his behavior, living conditions.etc, let me know! I just didn't want to make my first post super long, haha. Thanks for reading!
I adopted Travis (now renamed Loki because it suits him more and he seems to like it) the Kai-Ken about 3 weeks ago. He's a sweet boy. Doesn't bite, bark, respect my cat, or shows any signs of aggressive; however, he is incredibly shy and spooks very easily, especially when he goes out for walks. Granted, it has only been three weeks but he seemed totally OK when he was here (walked around the house, explore, lick my face.etc) until my coworkers barged in and scared the living daylights out of him and ever since then, he's been pretty shy and usually lays and sleeps all day. He doesn't jump on couches and be on the 'look out' like a lot of Kais, dart after wild life (we have a lot!) And actually gets spooked pretty bad when he sees any kind of animal in his path.
I am in the process of trying to boost his confidence and help his shyness. I am having Peggy, a Kai-Ken breeder, come over soon to give me some tips, but I'd LOVE to know what you guys suggest! Especially if you've worked with a shy Japanese dog before, how long did it take to help them, your methods.etc I really want this to work out and make Loki in a confident, happy Kai-Ken!
If you would like me to post more about his behavior, living conditions.etc, let me know! I just didn't want to make my first post super long, haha. Thanks for reading!
Comments
We have a Shikoku female from one of Peggy's litters who we adopted from Brad and Jen (Kai Breeders in NM) and she was very shy at first with everyone and everything! She would hide underneath a desk and stay there for 12 hours at a time. We had to literally drag her out by her front paws so that she could go potty... if we didn't do this she would deal with her stress by sleeping ALL day!
So we took her on walks... LOTS of walks. At first we took her on three 45min walks per day around the block so she could wrap her head around her new surroundings and meet the dogs in the neighborhood. She was very scared of everyone she saw on the street and when someone would approach us she would bolt in the opposite directions yanking my arm in the process. Walks then went from three 45min to two 1+ hours a day. After 3 months she's really friendly with people and all types of dogs.
She doesn't get on our couch either... she's not very comfortable in the house because she's scared of my husband's parents. We did put her on the bed and gave her treats and a ton of love and she would sleep some nights with us. Maybe put him on the couch and give him treats. She's also sacred of the kitchen because that's usually where my mother-in-law is, so when they're out of town we try to feed her and give her great smelling treats in the kitchen.
I don't know about other NK, but ChoCho (shikoku) and Goro (Kai pup) don't really love unannounced visitors. I put them in their crate when people are at the door and after a few minutes I let Goro out so that he can greet them. I'll give them treats so they can give them to him... only then is he super loving, if not he'll walk back to his crate. I try not to let people surprise the dogs... it usually ends up badly when someone new walks into the backyard or house without us knowing... ChoCho freaks and becomes super cautions about everything for a couple of days.
We bought ChoCho the Thunder Shirt and it's worked pretty well for her! She stops pacing when she's stressed and lays down. You should give that a try. We also give her ProQuiet, chamomile chew tablets, that we got from the vet. Brad and Jen recommended the D.A.P Plug-in and we noticed a difference after we plugged it in our room where she sleeps.
Anyway, hope this helps!
Oh wow! Your Shikoku sounds exactly like my little Loki! He is nervous when outside and whenever he sees a person or dog, he bolts the opposite direction. Luckily, he's not as bad with people but dogs? Oh boy! Lol! And we also had to drag the poor boy out to do his business outside for many days. Now, I just tug on his leash and he obeys.
I never thought taking him on lots of walks could help. When he freaked out bad, I barely walked him because I was afraid to get in his 'comfort zone' and invade his privacy. Now, I think I'll take him on a lot more walks and show him that everything is OK. He gets at least an hour of walking a day and I want to increase that!
We recently carried Loki in our room to sleep and he seems to like it (one time, we forgot him and he came in the room himself like a freaked out deer, haha!) I'm definitely going to put him on my bed and couch and give him lots of treats and love. I want him to feel apart of the family. Loki often gets spooked when someone new (including myself) enters the house. I am instructing all new guests to simply ignore him so the previous negative encounter won't be repeated and foil my progress, lol!
I never thought of using a Thunder Shirt! Wow, I'm gonna try that out, including those calming supplements or plug-in ones. I was considering it and now I really want to try it for myself.
I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to post your personal experience and giving me advice! It really means a lot and is so relieving that I'm not the only one who is dealing with a shy do. A million thank yous!
We took her with us the next day. The breeder put her into the crate inside our SUV. She started a barking episode whenever there was movement going on around the crate. It was a high-pitched panicked sound. I didn't know how I would get her out to potty; she growled in fear if looked directly into the crate. I didn't even know how I would get a leash and collar on her. So as we drove to our next destination, I just sat with her. I didn't look at her much and not directly in the eye. I didn't try to pet her, soothe her, force her to accept me, or violate the safety zone of her crate at all. The only time I put my hand in was to slip the lead over her head, and she growled the whole time - I thought I was going to lose my hand. But she didn't snap at me. I waited what seemed like ages at the first rest stop for her to come out of the crate to potty. My father came by to check on the progress, his large frame filling the doorway - that sent her cowering back into the crate. I'd been so close, too; she had two paws out. So I waited some more, and eventually when she had both paws on the seat I quickly put my hands behind her front legs under her ribs and urged her to jump out of the car. I didn't like having to do it (I would have rather she came out on her own) but she needed to be walked and we needed to get back on the road. She was much better outside of the crate and went potty for me immediately. She balked when I had to lift her back into the car, but didn't growl. She curled back up in her crate where she felt safe. This time I left the door open, and fed her bits of jerky, hot dog, and sandwich meat as we went down the road. I mumbled nonsense so she could get used to my voice and didn't look her directly in the eyes or try to pet her. Feeding her that way wasn't the best idea (she got very car sick) but seemed to win her over. She has never growled or barked at me after that.
The first night we got to the cabin well after dark and both dogs had been thoroughly sick multiple times. We put their crates under the stairs and they went to sleep immediately. The dogs were roused to potty once in the night, and it was so cold outside that they did their business and were let back inside where it was warm without a fuss. In the morning, however, my father went down stairs to put on his shoes and made quite a bit of noise doing so. That startled Mosura, and then she barked and freaked out whenever he or another man went by the crate. For three days we took her with us everywhere in her crate. She continued to drool in the car and be sick if we fed her a big meal beforehand, but not as bad as the first day. I sat next to her on the back seat, talking quietly, feeding treats, and not being too demanding. By the afternoon of the second day she would approach my mother or I willingly, wagging her tail and excited. She was wary of my father but not barking at him or cowering unless he did something to startle her. She didn't growl anymore. By the time we were ready to leave Japan, she was sweet and cuddly with me; I couldn't believe she was the same dog.
We had a bit of a set back after the plane ride. It seemed to cure her of the worst of her car sickness, but she became very anxious whenever left in her crate or dog run. Even in the same room with me at home, only a couple feet away, she would yip and whine and howl and cry in a way she hadn't done before in Japan. We tried to wait it out so as not to teach her that by carrying on she could get her way, but she would never stop. One day I was determined to wait her out and she carried on for 11 straight hours (she was in a dog run, not the crate, at the time). I couldn't believe it. She only stopped because I had to go out and bring the dogs in for bed. Obviously that wasn't going to work so we didn't do it again. We couldn't leave the house for any length of time. She wasn't housebroken and would get into trouble if allowed to be loose (she loves to rip up fabric and has shredded 3 towels and 2 dog beds so far, plus numerous plush toys), and made such a racket in her crate or dog run. There's no insulation in our house - even in her crate in our bedroom or my office, covered by a towel and with towels stuffed under the doors, she could be heard out on the street. For about three weeks one of us was always home. We cleared out schedules, cancelled our commitments, and stayed with her in lieu of doing anything else.
At night when we went to bed, with her crate within arms reach, she would pace and whine and drag the metal buckle of her collar across the bars like a prison inmate. My husband would take her out to potty on a schedule like a tiny puppy - every 2 to 4 hours or so - and that seemed to help. She didn't necessarily want or need to go, but has always been good about going if given the opportunity, and soon came to realize that after being taken out the first time she wouldn't get out again no matter how much fuss she made. We downgraded to a much smaller crate a few weeks ago, and that has cured the last of the restlessness - she can stand and change positions but can't pace anymore or remain standing comfortably for long periods of time. She settles quickly at night now, and also no longer makes a fuss in the dog run or when we leave the house, so we're able to go out again.
While all of this was going on, she also became very affectionate with my husband and I. If she spent much time being afraid of him when I first brought her home, I don't remember it. She gets super excited when he comes home from work and tries to nibble on his hands and tug on his pant legs. She crawls into my lap or my husband's while we watch TV and is content to just stay there as long as we'll let her. [My other girls will demand attention but don't want to be in your lap and hate to be put on the couch. The boy likes to sleep on the couch under his own terms and might come over and push someone out of "his" seat, but doesn't want to stay there if he's being molested.]
About two months ago I started a positive reinforcement class with her. I knew that a traditional obedience class would be too overwhelming for her. I've read up on clicker training but I always prefer to do classes with my dogs for the extra socialization. It also helps me remember to work with the dog every day to reinforce the lessons. Before I started the class, Mosura had already learned to sit if she wanted anything - food, out of her crate, etc - which she picked up very fast. She also already knew our release word. Even so, I was amazed at how well she did in the class. I believe she is the smartest of my dogs, and is very focused on me and eager to please (not stubborn at all!) and very willing to take treats and other rewards. After a couple sessions she became "my" dog - she is very sweet with my husband, but follows me everywhere in the house. She will stick to my side like glue, looking straight up at me for direction as I walk from room to room. I can ask her to do anything she knows and - provided fear isn't an issue - she'll do it right away. We're probably going to take a novice rally obedience class very soon, and maybe one day compete.
We're still working on her fear. She actually does better in public than at home when it comes to meeting and being approached by strangers. At home she will bark incessantly in her high pitched panic tone and run away if approached. In public she may drop her tail and hunker down but she doesn't freak out as badly - and certainly nothing like when we first met her! She will even walk up to sniff a stranger, and provided they don't startle her by moving quickly or reaching over her head, allow them to pet her. Any kind of loud noise (like someone sneezing) and she'll back off and maybe make a muttered complaint, but doesn't try to bolt or bark.
Sometimes at home she will get nervous about something that has changed (like a chair being moved out of position) and refuse to walk past it. In these situations, if necessary I might have to pick her up and carry her by it (eg. to take her out to potty). For the most part however I try never to force her into the presence of something intimidating. I don't make a big deal about it, either. I just ignore it like everything is normal. The frequency at which she randomly decides something is scary is dropping dramatically. We don't have to walk on egg shells around our house - and neither do our guests. She's even started accepting and willingly approaching some of the people who come around often.
My other dogs have been helpful, too. When Mosura is afraid of something or someone, I bring in one of the other dogs, usually Gryphon. When Gryphon ignores the object or goes right up to the person to be petted (she loves everyone) Mosura seems to relax a little. She doesn't immediately get over her timidness, but with each successive interaction her freak out threshold is raised a little and the time it takes her to chill out is decreased.
She was ok with my husband in our room, but was scared of him any where outside the room... So he started taking her on walks too and now she runs to him for comfort when she's scared. One thing Tara ( @tjbart17 ) told me that worked for her Kai Koda, is having him smell and greet people outside of the house first. This made him more comfortable about the visitors inside the house. ChoCho is friendly towards people outside of the house, and terrified of visitors. We've notices that she's ok with the visitors if she has met outside of the house before.
It's a long road with fearful dogs, and sometimes they never completely get over their fear. One thing I learned from other members of this forum is to accept them where they are at: do the best you can with them, but understand that they may never be social dogs.
My Kai Ken is pretty young but is a pretty bold little man, so I've not had experience with a shy Kai Ken. But I do have a very fearful Shiba. She is terrified of new people/places. As it happens, she has medical issues that probably exacerbate the issue--she is epileptic and hypothyroid--but she would have been a fearful dog anyway, I suspect. She came from a puppy mill and was not well socialized before I got her, and I didn't do a good job after wards (I didn't know, then how important it is).
anyway, what helps her is the thunder shirt (she's hypersensitive to noise, esp. thunder and gets scared), and the DAP diffuser has been helpful too. What has been most helpful for her has been medication (she take phenobarbital for the seizures).
But one of the things i learned is that I have to let Bel choose things on her own. She loves to go for rides (but hates to get out in new places, which she finds frightening). She likes to go for walks too, and is ok meeting other dogs, but doesn't like to meet new people. She is mostly afraid of people, and will run from them or bark.
what I have decided is that I could keep trying to force Bel into situations she doesn't enjoy (going to new places, meeting new people) or I could accept that I have a dog who is happy and confident at home, but would prefer to stay home. that's what we've decided to do. She sometimes has to do challenging things (going to the vet, for example, or tolerating visitors to our house), but mostly, she gets to stay within her comfort range.
So it's not that I don't recommend trying to work with fearful dogs, and trying to get them to be more social. I think that is a great goal, and many dogs can slowly improve and become less fearful. However, many fearful dogs will never be bold, social butterflies, and I think that is ok. I think it is ok to accept that a dog may be more comfortable at home. It's one of the lessons I've learned from my dog--to accept what she can do, and live with that.
I got him from a shelter. When I went to visit him there, he was all happy and bouncy (seriously, he did nothing but hop everywhere) and seemed like a normal puppy. He wasn't too interested in me or the treats I was given. The shelter staff explained to me that he was part of a mill seizure, but not that he might have behavioral problems because of it. At that time I knew what a puppy mill was but didn't realize exactly what that could mean.
First mistake: Hitting the concrete guardrail on the highway on the way home and sending my new 4 month old puppy flying. That is why he doesn't like my Jeep, or any car for that matter. Now I ALWAYS have him (and any other occupants regardless of species) restrained while riding in a vehicle.
Conker warmed up to me instantly but was terrified of everyone else. Everyone wanted to pet him, and this just made things worse. At first I thought that he "needed the socialization", since I had never really raised a dog before, I figured you just let people pet them. This did not help, and turned into mistake two. I did a bit of research on it why Conker was afraid of everyone, even nice people. Turns out that forcing him to be pet by people was doing more harm than good, so I stopped letting just anyone pet him.
It took me forever to stop trying to explain to people why they can't pet my puppy in a nice manner. I went from saying "Well, I dunno, he's kinda shy." to "NO, you cannot pet my dog. Go away, you are scaring him." but for some people that didn't work. One guy grabbed the leash and pulled Conker up (he got screamed at, and slapped) and others ignored me and blurted "Oh, but I'm so good with dogs!" and reached down to pet him anyways. I now hate that phrase, and people who say it get a very nasty glare.
I was able t get Conker's flight threshold down to about 10 feet by feeding him uber tasty treats when he saw a stranger. I slowly decreased the distance until he could walk comfortably in the park, as long as I gave people a wide berth. I still tried to "socialize" Conker by giving people who listened to me treats to give to him, but he wanted none of it. He was more interested in exploring hiking trails than meeting strangers, and since he was attempting to escape from everyone who got close I just avoided them whenever possible. Which also didn't really help much.
Once I left St. Louis and went to Southern Oregon, things got a LOT better. I took Conker to the dogpark here and that really helped him open up. (I wouldn't really recommend this, though. I've got an atypical dogpark where everyone and their dog is well-mannered and polite. That's not the case at most dogparks, and you really risk messing your dog up by taking them to one.)
I discovered that Conker is extremely stranger shy when he's on the leash as opposed to off. When he's off, he'll go up to some people, curiously, and let a select few pet him. I guess he knows he can escape when he's not restrained, and doesn't feel the need to be paranoid.
Another thing that helped boost his confidence (maybe a bit too much) is hiking. He LOVES hiking, and will walk right up to most other hikers and DECLARE they step aside for him. I don't let him do this if I can help it, and much to his annoyance, leash him whenever I see other people or animals (on trails that allow off-leash dogs). Funnily enough, in urbania he is still timid around strangers on-leash, but in the forest he is just like at the dogpark when leashed. He is interested in people, but not enough to let them freely touch him, and is not trying to escape.
Conker needs time to get to know someone, and most people don't seem to think that a dog can't be instantly their best friend. I can get him to warm up to a stranger (guests) by telling them Conker's rules: Don't chase, talk to, or attempt to pet him unless I tell you to. Give treats (drop on the floor if he won't take them) or play fetch if you want to=, but don't force it upon him. If he's not interested, try again later. If he barks at you, leave him alone. Most importantly, DO WHAT I TELL YOU! If I tell you to back up, or pet him a certain way, this is because I know him best. It does not matter how "good you may be with dogs", you follow my rules or you aren't allowed to interact with him. If you harass him intentionally in any way, you lose, and get punched in the face.
Also, there is strictly no interaction with little kids. Ever. Period. He growls and bares teeth at children, and I do not want to find out if he will bite. (He has attempted to bite a few people in the past, but they were asking for it.)
I'm still working with him about the on-leash stranger problems. Sometimes I will put him in a sit when someone walks by and feed him treats and give praise when he sits calmly. This is working to get him not to move away when strangers come near (he'll go into traffic to avoid someone). I don't want him to be happy to meet new people, or even want to, just not be so afraid of them, so I try to keep all his stranger encounters positive.
(sorry for rambling)
Long story short I guess... after that class I decided that no one needed to touch Mirra's head if it was something that she didn't like.... and she does not like strangers touching her head. Us, not a problem - so I decided to a take a different route with her "socialization".
So from that point here are the actions that I took:
Lot's of visits to the park, but only when there were less people there. I always said "hi" to everyone we passed with a smile on my face. I never forced her to meet someone, but if I was talking with someone I asked/told them to completely ignore her. If they didn't then I would end the conversation and walk away with still no direct contact with Mirra from me or them.. her just on the leash in a heel position by my side. Always keeping it positive without any negative feelings from me. I didn't make a deal of it, we would simply leave. If they did ignore her, she would start to get a little curious about the person after a few minutes and start to inch forward... so in the convo with person, I would ask them to still ignore her and let her sniff them. The biggest part was them understanding that ignoring means NO EYE CONTACT, lol!! Once her body relaxed and she was using her nose more with them then I would congratulate her and give the treat. I didn't ask them to give the treat because that would have been direct contact/pressure from them to her which would have made her regress back to being leery of them. Repetition of this has improved her greatly where I do not worry about taking her anywhere with me. She still gets inwardly nervous at Petco but really just looks to me for what to do and doesn't outwardly freak out. She gets lots of calm reward both verbal, physical and food wise when we go there.. plus, I let her pick out a new toy also... makin' it fun...lol or spoiled, haha however you want to look at it! I find that she responds better to a kind/loving verbal reward rather than the higher pitched/excited one that we (I think most of us) use with puppies and such. To her, that is just extra excitement that makes her worry.
In the house we had/have a different solution. Saydee has always been extremely friendly so we would leave her out in the main living area when people would come over to get loves, introductions and such..We put Mirra behind a baby gate in our room so she can see what's going on but feel secure while not being in the mix of things and getting upset. People were still asked to completely ignore Mirra and pretend that she wasn't even there. If she started barking, the door was shut after telling her "lay down - quiet" When she would quiet down in the room we would open the door back up. When she layed down on her own behind the baby gate, I'd take the gate down and ask the visitor to PLEASE pretend she's not even here. She would then come out and commence with the same sniffing routine as above and then be congratulated by me when she was greeting someone properly. Even at this point though, if the person turned to look at her, she would revert back to barking and backing away. If this happened I would take her back behind the gate to calm down. Repeat the process until....
When Mirra is comfortable enough with someone to touch her one of two things will happen:
1. She will "woo woo" you - to some this is mistaken for growling as it is low pitched but it is a very different verbal que from her
2. She will sit up and wrap her paws around your hand (this one is usually reserved for people she accepts into the family)
I believe that #2 also has a dual purpose. When she does this she guides your hand to her chest... this I think is where the importance of not doing the top of the head touch comes in from above... she's comfortable with strangers touching her chest once they have passed inspection. This is where I tell people to touch her once they have passed her criteria. Never, never on her head (that is reserved for us ;o) but only on her chest and when she is ready. After she accepts the pets on the chest then and only then can they usually look at her without her reverting back to barking.
It's her procedure and what she needs to have happen for her to be comfortable. If someone can't give her that, then they don't need to know my dog! And then I start questioning if I need to know them either....lolol
Maybe some of her story will help you, I hope!
I also remember two times when he completely flipped out, ran from me like he didn't even know me because he was spooked. I just tried to keep his world small, only walk around the complex and on the greenbelt. I didn't want him to be overstimulated with new things. Patiently, and as his shots were complete, I expanded his world by walking him further away. He quickly got over it.
With Kais, they have a good sense of what is "right" and what is "wrong" in their world. When people come into their home that they haven't seen before, this is wrong. Terribly wrong in their mind. I don't lock up the dogs in their crates. That for mine creates barrier frustration. Instead, I meet people outside before they come in with the dogs on leash. I give treats to people to give to the dogs, and then invite them in. Koda thinks this is the right way to have people come into our home and it works.
I don't let the dogs look out the window, and for a long time kept everything shut so they didn't learn to bark at people/animals walking by. My neighbors would hate my dogs is they did this.
With Koda, I went to agility classes/obedience to help with his confidence. I think the tracking class was when we had a full turnaround. Then he started working with kids, and I don't see any confidence issues with him anymore. He's a really laid back Kai. Super laid back. He doesn't play with toys, and he doesn't jump on the couch or bed. Actually, he doesn't jump at all, not even into the car. It's just not him. (And his father is the same way).
Just start out slow. Make sure not to push his threshold. And bring lots of treats. You will figure out what he thinks is right and wrong and then work with it. I hope this makes sense. Kais have strict social rules/norms that they abide by. Which also gives them their polite character and ability to get along well with other dogs. But they also expect others to follow their rules, and when people or things surprise them it shakes them up to no avail.
May I ask how old your Kai is? Koda was 9 weeks old when I started walking him. He was still within his socialization period. If you have an older puppy, then you are in his learning period. It will take more time, because he will have to learn that things are ok.
Just make sure to use positive training techniques always with Kais. Otherwise, you may get a schizo dog.