Development of Strength

edited July 2012 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
Hi all,
I'll be adopting a new Kai pup in five days (AHH!!!! So excited!)- she will about ten weeks old. I'm trying to plan out the length of my walks and to see if she might be ready to do some hiking and running in the fall. There have been previous threads that indicate they reach their height within the first year, and that they continue to fill out in the year or two following. I wanted to poll the forum to see what people's experiences have been in terms of the development of their strength and the amount of exercise they can handle in their first year. Thanks!

Comments

  • edited July 2012
    You definitely want to limit strenuous excuses during the first few months. With my pups I always let them determin how much exercise they want to do. I do this by just taking them out to areas where they can run around on their own instead of leashing them. The biggest thing this time of the year is the heat, you really have to keep an eye out for heat exhaustion and dehydration.

    IMHO the best thing is to allow the pup to acclimate to their living environment first before any strenuous activities. Always keep the pup well hydrated and cooled off and make sure he/she is up to par on vaccinations.

    Oh and congrats on the new pup!
  • when I brought home my puppy at 10ish weeks, I had grand plans of walking him everywhere....but he did not share the same visions. He didn't have the endurance nor the passion to walk very far. Time is definitely not of the essence with him, and he is still a puppy (10months, japanese akita). I would not plan out lengths just yet. Wait and see what she is going to feel like doing. They're so young at that age that you don't want to overwork them, they're still growing and you don't want to stress out their bodies. I agree that an off leash area would be good.

    I think I started taking Toki on short little hikes around 3 months? Keep in mind though, Toki is pretty nonchalant about everything and is sort of a couch potato. A really strong couch potato, but one nevertheless.
  • congrats by the way! Have fun with your new puppy! :D
  • also, if you get to the point where you want to go running with her, you can do that before she is one year of age, (and older than 6 months), but with cautious measures. I would run on grass, let her set the speed and the amount of breaks. Try to emulate what she would normally do if she was playing off leash, so be prepared to take a lot of breaks. Running on trails is really fun too. I think dogs generally like hiking, so they tend to run faster than they normally would, so make sure to force them to take breaks. You don't want to over-stress their bodies when they're still growing.
  • Unlike @jellyfart mine (female Kai) was pretty charged up from day one. If she could talk, her motto would probably be "Effin' Go, Go, Go!" even so still. hehe. I second the above comments about letting the pup set the pace. observation, at this point is the best method of planning. 10 weeks is very new, but if she seems tenacious now, prepare to make a habit of building in calm times after walks... nothing like trying to catch a Kai with the zoomies after a long walk! congrats.
  • I walked 10 min twice a day with my dogs. 3 times on weekend. but I didn't run or hike with them. I didn't want to hurt my dog's joints and breeder told me to start real running with dogs after 1 year and half of age. ^^ I don't know about smaller breed though.

  • I've taken Goro (17 weeks today) on walks with our 1.5 year old shikoku and he keeps up pretty well, but will lay in the shade whenever he has a chance. He's starting to get the point of going on walks... whereas before he would walk side to side instead of straight. lol

    ChoCho walks are usually 1+ hr 2x day, but when Goro comes along their about 45 mins (because they always stop to play and run after each other making the walks longer than they should be lol) We take them to the park to run around and smell new stuff... since walking on the street doesn't work well with a pup. We also make sure to drive to the park, instead of walking to it like we usually do, incase Goro is too tired to walk back... a 20 something pound pup is not easy to carry all the way home.

    By the fall do you mean October? I have no idea... since I'm not in that stage of age with Goro yet, but I've heard you have to wait at least until their somewhat developed for that kind of excise. Taking a 4 month old pup on a hike or run seems a bit extreme to me. I can't image Goro surviving that! lol
  • I started taro and yuki on boar hunting around 7 months and they were just fine. I think as long as you observe your pup there shouldn't be any issue. I think many people get too excited with a new pup and want to do all kinds of things so slow, gradual introduction is the way to go.
  • Congrats!

    It is good you are asking. Pace it out. Young dogs do not know their limits, therefore it will be up to you to set them for your pup, even if the pup thinks it should be going like an energizer bunny.

    Moderate exercise in moderate temperatures is reasonable and a good thing generally. (Black or dark coats suck up the heat more quickly so be aware of that in terms of cooling and stamina.)

    Kais and other hunting dogs will often take on climbing and other rigorous activity so care is in order to make sure there aren't any falls on hard surfaces, at odd angles, or continuous jumping down on to hard surfaces in repetitive fashion. Keep fetch low to the ground or at a roll for the first yr and tug at a level line to the dog's back. The objective to be avoiding strain and weird twisting. It is recommended by orthopedic vet to limit play to multiple short sessions in a day. (If you have ever seen weekend warrior pups go all out at a park, the next day they lay around stiff and crampy.... It's not a pretty sight at the ortho office.) Once strain sets in can easily can become chronic so it's best to avoid that if you can with moderation based on age and individual dog's comfort level.


    As far as hard core running as a routine on pavement, I would not begin that until closer to two years. I know this sounds extreme, however a dogs ligaments and joints are vulnerable until the growth plates close and the hips are done forming. For hips that does not happen until around 24 months. Take it easy for starters and build up to longer activities as the dog acclimates physically. If you are a dedicated runner make sure to keep the toes and feet of your dog in good condition (stretched and flexible, plus conditioned toe pads (mushers wax) and trimmed nails). Avoid hot pavement in summer and rinse off ice salts in winter.

    Have fun....
    Snf


  • @StaticNfuzz what would you consider "hard core running" when running on pavement? I don't run with Toki much, I keep our runs really short and lots of breaks, but eventually I would like to work up to running a lot more with him. He is 10 months now, so it'll be a while before I ask anything else of him.
  • Just a simple point... I think the concerns for an Akita, which is a bigger animal, and a Kai Ken are pretty different. Also, a Kishu and a Kai. At least with Kishin, he is developing much slower than any of our Kai boys have regarding coordination and such.

    So, keep that in mind. @jellyfart's pup's needs are pretty different from a female Kai Ken (who is a Haru progeny no less - like @Yandharr's pup)...
  • @Jellyfart: For human runners with dogs, by hard core I am referring to two to five miles on hard pavement as a starter for a young dog ....that is really tough on their body regardless of breed. Even one mile on pavement for some adults is too much. Taking running on to a flat dirt trail or grass is so much better than cement. We humans have benefit of running shoes as a shock absorbers for pavement, dogs do not. All the energy, although distributed across four legs, will push back up into the body potentially causing progressive damage if the dog has even a mild structural issue, is uncoordinated (puppy), or favors one side or another. It is not always obvious, sometimes the way the pads wear will give an idea but not always.

    For dogs that are daily running partners, it is a good idea to get the joints/posture checked out every few months or yearly basis to make sure nothing is degrading. It does not have to be a orthopedic vet or anything expensive, even a holistic acupuncturist should be able to feel/see if your dog's body is not aligned or too tight in one area. Catching little problems early and keeping everything aligned will save some big dollars in the long run if running is a daily thing. Tightening up the weak spots is helpful too through some cross training. Not saying anyone has to go all out super crazy, just make sure what you do is balanced in a program for the canine and its age.

    PS: Been there with the surgery for my dog so throwing the info out there...

    Snf

    Here's some basic Refs to pass along:

    http://www.k-state.edu/media/audio/podcastorthoinjury.html

    http://www.womensrunning.com/articles/164-dog-days

    http://www.caninesports.com/fitness.html
  • @StaticNfuzz What about buying running shoes for a dog? wouldn't that help mitigate the shock damage (in adults)?
  • edited July 2012
    As a barefoot runner (I run on pavement with no shoes unless there's snow) I really disagree with the idea that shoes help people OR dogs avoid injury. Shoes on a dog would most likely change their gait and weaken muscles, just like they do for people.

    The best guard against injury is gradual conditioning. If the dog has good muscle tone, the joints will be well-supported. Exercise also increases bone density. Next, I'd say keeping the dog a healthy weight (or slightly underweight) and a good diet with all the proteins and fats they need. I think avoiding exercise actually increases the chance of injury.

    This, of course, assumes the dog is mature and has no fundamental structural flaw.

    To gear up a young dog for exercise, I would go with core-strengthening, low impact exercise like swimming or various balance exercises. Non-impact agility exercises are really good, too. I think the main thing is to let them move in all directions, using all the different muscles, and being aware of their own body and how it moves.

    The Tri-Pawd website has lots of this info. It's aimed at dogs missing a limb, but there's lots there about avoiding joint issues because those types of injuries are common in three-legged dogs.

    And of course, playing is super important!
  • Yandharr: I have no idea why this has not been thought of. I know there are mushers or hunting boots/shoes but they seem to have little purpose in regard to impact. I'll ask the next time I talk to the ortho vet.

    Hondru: as far as barefoot/barefeet I guess that's a personal choice if you have a perfect leg and hip alignment. I would have to ask why then are the better track fields padded and trainers and med professionals encourage those that train and compete to run on that? Obviously there is benefit to many to reduce friction and impact.

    Agreed about the cross training. The link above by Dr. Zink Canine sports suggests this too. To pass along...She also suggests avoiding pavement if you can. My theory is why gamble. In agility they also use padded areas for training and competition. Although much of this is just about full impact rather than about lateral motion.

    Seems to me taking the dog to one of a padded tracks at a local univ or high school is a good solution to both human and dog especially if you want to get mileage in with the dog.

    I hope that I didn't imply that one should avoid exercising their dog, not at all. However, some common sense and moderation is in order for example when to heavily exercise, at what age and where. No two dogs are alike so its best to remain guarded about going all out. Often you just don't know until after a dog is mature where its weakest points are. The structure can flex a lot on a young dog and at different stages the coordination is just not there nor the distribution of weight. So again why risk damage to a young dog.

    Snf
  • @StaticNfuzz - I too am a barefoot runner and can provide a bit of insight on your question for Heidi...

    Running barefoot GIVES you proper leg and hip alignment, whereas running with 'traditional' running shoes causes humans to have an incorrect gait. This incorrect gait creates additional stress on joints and bones because the foot strike is in the middle of the foot (or even the heel if the gait is really off), instead of at the forefoot.

    The reason tracks are made with 'squishy' material is because it IS easier on the joints to run on that type of material. Just like it is easier to run on trails than it is on pavement. However, since starting barefoot running, I have noticed that there is no where near the difference (from an impact point of view) between trail running and road running as there was when I was wearing traditional running shoes. Granted, pavement running is boring as all get out, so I tend to run on trails most of the time. :)
  • Casey, that is interesting. I've always hated running shoes, they never seemed to fit right and I have never found a pair I liked, not even for track in college. Don't own a pair now at all.

    Anyway, per recommendation of Dr. Zink (not that she is the end all be all in the world of ortho vets, I don't know others so take it for what it's worth) we avoid extensive conditioning and exercise on concrete for any dog.

    Snf
  • Barefoot runner here too!
    I definitely avoid exercise on concrete as much as possible. It's simply not fun and I can feel it in a bad way, even when I try to use as perfect a form as I can. I notice it in my dogs too. Conker HATES running on pavement, he simply won't do it without a ton of encouragement. Juneau will, but she's much more comfortable on organic surfaces. Even Sasha, who doesn't do much running at all, prefers to run when she's not on hard surfaces.

    Like others have said, work up slowly, keep the dog in good shape, feed a good diet, and don't do any really hardcore stuff until the dog is older and the joints have finished growing.
  • But... Human and dogs were not "made" to run barefoot on concrete, no?

    So, couldn't running barefoot on concrete cause issues just like running with running shows on a trail causes issues?

    I guess my point is, shoes and concrete are both man-made.
  • edited July 2012
    Keep in mind that your dog's feet are much tougher than your own. Dogs regularly walk over stuff I wouldn't dream of walking on barefoot like gravel and tree detritus. They also do not seem to mind heat and cold on their paw pads as much as we would. That's not to say you should force your dog to stand on hot asphalt in the middle of the day in summer, but I do think some of the people who tell you not to walk your dog on it unless you would do it barefoot are a bit bonkers. There's nothing to be gained from too much coddling.
  • I'm not sayin don't walk on concrete, just don't do it too much.
    Running barefoot on any surface can cause problems, same as with in shoes. My feet are incredibly tough, but concrete is still no fun to run on. Neither is gravel, I can walk on that, but it's not comfortable. Tree stuff, that actually feels good, but that can vary wildly from person to person as it can from dog to dog. Juneau will run on some surfaces Conker won't, and vice versa.
    Yeah, dogs have pretty tough feet. But if it hurts mine, I'm not gonna do any strenuous exercise with them on it, even if I'm wearing shoes. I'd rather not make my dogs run on any given surface just because I want to or can. Even if that means I've got to walk on a surface I like to run on.
  • Yeah, pavement isn't natural and it's better for your joints to run on soft surfaces, but I don't think the difference is that significant. Surfaces as hard as pavement DO exist in nature. Hard, baked earth isn't too uncommon in Africa, where we did most of our evolution. The main thing is, I don't think we're unequipped to run on pavement. We can do it just fine, and so can dogs. All those joints, along with good muscles holding them up, are pretty springy if used properly. If you strike with your heel, then it's more like you're jolting into the ground rather than springing along on top of it. Either way, I think the weight of the runner has more impact on joint stress than the hardness of the ground.

    I think I will have Rakka x-rayed, though. I've seen her "bunny-hop" at top speed twice. I guess twice in her entire life (that I know of) isn't too bad, but she's the only one of her siblings not to be diagnosed with some kind of joint problem, so either we're extremely lucky, or she's just really good at hiding symptoms. Both of her bunny hops were actually while she was trying to keep up with Sosuke. Once, we were biking and Sosuke wanted to go top speed, pulling the bike, and Rakka only ever wants to trot with the bike. The other time, she was chasing Sosuke.

    The longest I've ever ran or biked with the dogs is 5k-ish, not including walking. On the bike, I let the slowest dog (Rakka) set the pace; when running, I set the pace. Noah runs a 2-3 times a week and he goes up to 20k and takes one dog with him each time he goes, alternating which dog he takes, so the dogs run 20k maybe once/week each. Noah runs through the coulees, so there's some pavement at first, then it's mostly on prairie grass.

    @StaticNFuzz - I actually have started running from a pretty pathetic place and still have a long way to go. I have three children, and during each pregnancy, I had symphysis pubis dysfunction, which got worse every time. Basically, the ligaments holding my pelvis (and all my other joints) together got looser and looser, until they weren't held together properly at all. Bones were grinding together when I walked and everything got totally misaligned and out of whack. It was extremely painful and I was in a wheelchair by the end of it. A few months after having the last baby, my ligaments were stronger again, but I was still pretty misaligned. I probably will be for the rest of my life. I have really loose joints all over my body that dislocate fairly easily, so I'm a total mess. I also started out running with conventional running shoes and quickly got plantar fasciitis. Yeah, it's pretty pathetic! I took my shoes off simply to reduce the pain I was experiencing all over my body, and it worked! I really, really need all those strong muscles from barefoot running just to hold myself together. Now I really need to get my weight down, then I'll consider myself recovered from the whole ordeal.

    I don't necessarily think everyone should run barefoot. I went to a running store recently with Noah for him to buy running shoes (he does not run barefoot and he's comfortable running that way). I took a look at the Vibrams and the lady told me that I had really wide feet and really spread-out toes, which probably accounts for why I find shoes so uncomfortable and why I can run comfortably on bare ground with fairly little foot conditioning. I have really tough feet, too. I accidentally ran over some glass and didn't even feel it, but when I got home, there was a piece stuck in my foot. Oh yeah, and a looong time ago, I got a pedicure from someone who needed to give one in front of an instructor to get her certification or something, and she found a piece of glass and a piece of wood stuck in my feet that I didn't even know about. She was completely horrified, LOL. That was years before I started running barefoot, but I was always outside barefoot anyway, so I guess I was always stepping in stuff.
  • I'll play it by ear and will try introducing the hiking at least in small segments. We have some decent woods around Boston metro that don't have much elevation but have plenty of scenery and intersting smells no doubt, I could use that as training grounds before doing anything more strenuous in a few months time.
    We'll see about the running- though I don't much enjoy running on pavement either :(
    Thanks all for your input!
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