Dog intros not going as great as expected. Kai Ken
Ok, I had another thread going, but figured I'd start a new one with more specific information.
First off, we have had Apollo, a Kai Ken (mixed with something else) for over 4 years, and he is now going on 5 years old. He was a rescue dog. He is very obedient, very family oriented, and great with strangers when we give him the "ok"
http://imgur.com/a/zR8so
I found a 6 month old Akita named Juliet relatively close to this area. I will post pics tomorrow of her after I take some. She is a pure bred akita.
We introduced both dogs at a dog park, and they seemed ok. Apollo was a little skiddish of the Juliet, but no big deal. Their temperments seemed to be a good match...
We got home 2 hours later and things have been difficult since we got home. My Male Kai has been super dominate, and snarly towards Juliet. We have dogs over regularly and he is is well socialized and gets along with dogs very well off-leash at the dog park. My parents have a border collie/lab mix that has more energy then you can imagine, and he deals with her well. In the past, I have seen him play rough with other dogs, where they both play the "go for the neck game", duke it out for 15 minutes playing rough, then just lay down next to each other. This has been his typical behavior for over 3 years with all other dogs relative to his size (he ignores little dogs all-together).
Whenever Juliet comes near, Apollo snarls. I have tried to put him in check right away and slap his snout and say no, he needs to know this is my turf, not his. We just bought a new house just over a month ago, so I don't think its a territory thing.
There are two separate issues with the Akita I'm worried about. She doesn't like to be touched very often it seems and seems skiddish. When on leash, she is fine and doesn't appear to mind touch in the least. Off-leash in the house, she doesn't want anyone to get close to her. The bigger issue is that she pounced on our one-year-old daughter. I'm not sure if she wanted to play, or it was a weird attack thing.
I'd really appreciate some veteran help here.
Apollo knew absolutely nothing when we rescued him 4 years ago and now is a very well mannered Kai that listens well and is very attached to us. I really want what is best for both dogs and want them to enjoy each other. In the past, Apollo has always seemed to enjoy other dogs around and has liked playing "rough". I don't know what the deal is now.
First off, we have had Apollo, a Kai Ken (mixed with something else) for over 4 years, and he is now going on 5 years old. He was a rescue dog. He is very obedient, very family oriented, and great with strangers when we give him the "ok"
http://imgur.com/a/zR8so
I found a 6 month old Akita named Juliet relatively close to this area. I will post pics tomorrow of her after I take some. She is a pure bred akita.
We introduced both dogs at a dog park, and they seemed ok. Apollo was a little skiddish of the Juliet, but no big deal. Their temperments seemed to be a good match...
We got home 2 hours later and things have been difficult since we got home. My Male Kai has been super dominate, and snarly towards Juliet. We have dogs over regularly and he is is well socialized and gets along with dogs very well off-leash at the dog park. My parents have a border collie/lab mix that has more energy then you can imagine, and he deals with her well. In the past, I have seen him play rough with other dogs, where they both play the "go for the neck game", duke it out for 15 minutes playing rough, then just lay down next to each other. This has been his typical behavior for over 3 years with all other dogs relative to his size (he ignores little dogs all-together).
Whenever Juliet comes near, Apollo snarls. I have tried to put him in check right away and slap his snout and say no, he needs to know this is my turf, not his. We just bought a new house just over a month ago, so I don't think its a territory thing.
There are two separate issues with the Akita I'm worried about. She doesn't like to be touched very often it seems and seems skiddish. When on leash, she is fine and doesn't appear to mind touch in the least. Off-leash in the house, she doesn't want anyone to get close to her. The bigger issue is that she pounced on our one-year-old daughter. I'm not sure if she wanted to play, or it was a weird attack thing.
I'd really appreciate some veteran help here.
Apollo knew absolutely nothing when we rescued him 4 years ago and now is a very well mannered Kai that listens well and is very attached to us. I really want what is best for both dogs and want them to enjoy each other. In the past, Apollo has always seemed to enjoy other dogs around and has liked playing "rough". I don't know what the deal is now.
Comments
Dogs don't always click instantly. It can take weeks to months before dogs, especially older dogs, come to accept one another as a pack member. You should have a set-up where the dogs can sniff and see each other but can't touch each other. They should have the ability to walk away when uncomfortable. Interaction should be with through a barrier like a baby gate.
A month is sufficient time for a dog to claim a territory.
It is very unfair to the Akita to expect anything else other than skittishness and uneasyiness so soon after being displaced from what's familiar to her. Give her time and provide positive experiences for her so she learns to trust you and her new environment.
I think it's alarming that you're already allowing her to interact with your one year old daughter. She shouldn't be able to pounce on such a small baby. The baby should be elevated in your arms, in a high chair, in a safe pack-and-play, in a crib, etc. If the dog has never ever been exposed to a baby, you should be even more vigilent when introducing the two. A baby crying, a baby jiggling, a baby crawling - they're all triggers for a dog. Even if the dog is not in prey drive (which you don't know), a dog in rough play can hurt your baby.
You should respect the boundaries of both dogs. Juliet doesn't need to be affectionate just yet. I would just sit quietly in close proximity to her and wait it out. Toss her some treats if she's into food. Actually, you may want to go look at the Ren Mystery thread to see an example of a shy dog being integrated into a new house successfully.
As for Apollo, I don't think he has to be warm and welcoming to a strange dog off the bat, either. It's okay if he wants his space. You're still in charge, but inter-dog politics don't need constant policing. A raised lip and a snarl is just communication.
As for pouncing the child, it's impossible to know what went on without more information. Could you describe the incident in detail?
First:
Is this the beautiful Juliet that is small for her age and she was a very picky eater(Her previous owner posted pictures, etc. here on the forum and I was curious if this was the same sweet girl)? If so, that little girl is so pretty! If not, I apologize for jumping in and assuming
Second:
It took TWO MONTHS and one week for my 1 1/2 year old dog to accept, play with and to stop snarling/snapping at our AA.... then one day she just decided "Hey, she looks like fun.... I think I like her now" lol Now they get along fabulously but it was a long process that required patience, vigilance, and baby gates/barriers. We also make sure everyone has their own crate to retreat to if they want/need to relax ALONE. Please do not expect her OR your Kai to be happy or comfortable with each other right away. It could take quite some time or it could happen quickly. It is perfectly ok for your Kai to "say" he is uncomfortable with her approaching him right now but I agree with the above statement that they should be separated by a barrier to allow them to familiarize themselves with each other. Allow Juliet time to learn to trust you and to adjust to your family and your home. Don't push her. Our 1 1/2 year old dog is VERY accustomed to dogs coming and going in our home as we rescue/foster animals (not so much over the last few months) but she still did not accept our AA initially.
Your Kai may be fantastic with dogs at a park or friends houses,etc. but a new dog coming into his home is something different all together and he needs time to adjust to that. Slapping his snout is not going to help the snarling issue. It will only cause more problems and it really isn't fair to him. He/they need his/her own space (a crate/room/spot) that is his/hers and that he/she can get away from the stress and/or just to relax.
Your one year old:
We would need more info on the episode to offer input but your baby should not be where the pup can "pounce" on her. Juliet is new to your home, is probably extremely stressed and is unsettled/unsure of her new environment and family. She needs time to settle in and patience. Your baby is not going to be able to play with Juliet for a long time so you will have be more careful to ensure both of them (Juliet and your baby) are not in a situation where this could occur again.
I hope this helps! We are all here to offer help and ideas where we can and I sincerely hope everything works out for Juliet!! Congrats again!!
I agree with what others have said. Don't slap the dog, that can easily get nasty and he might turn on you instead, or he could develop a fear of you or the other dog.
My Shiba fought with one of my Mom's dogs almost constantly when I moved back in last year. Now they get along fine. He was almost always the instigator of the fights, so I kept a very good eye on him. If he started to show any signs of a fight, I'd say "That's enough." and remove him from the room. I did not yell, did not hit, just calmly told him I wouldn't put up with that and removed from the room. Give each dog a space of their own, a crate or room, where they can go where the other dog is not allowed until they are good with each other. A barrier that separates them but allows them to sniff is a good idea.
My Shiba was also incredibly possessive of food, but that was an entirely different battle.
On another note, I actually encourage snarling and showing teeth. Why? It's a warning. Slapping the dog when he snarls will remove the warning, and instead of showing teeth, he will just go straight for a bite. When my dogs show teeth or snarl, I say "Thank you." Then remove them from the situation. I would much rather have a dog that shows teeth and snarls then one who doesn't and bites without warning.
Keep the baby out of situations where the dogs might feel driven to stalk/play/attack. If the dog is watching intently while the baby is out, remove the dog or put the baby up. Babies are very similar to prey, and Nihon Ken often have a very strong prey-drive, so it's best to just not allow the dog to ever see the baby as a prey item. When baby is out when the dogs are, keep baby in your arms and encourage calm behavior in the dogs. Laying and sitting around with no intensive staring or hyper activity. If the dogs want to play, put baby up or let the dogs outside.
I hear of too many "out of the blue" dog attacks on babies, and all of them are 100% avoidable. Most of the time people don't realize that a staring dog is a predatory dog, so just don't ever give them the chance to act like that towards a child.
I recently introduced a *very* skittish - dare I say terrified - 8 month old Akita with my three established Akitas - one of whom is easy to take offense and fight about anything.
First of all, I dealt with the dog getting to know me before overwhelming her with other animals and family members. They don't need to see each other at all at this point. I sat next to Mosura's crate and talked about nothing and occasionally fed her treats through the grate. I didn't try to be affectionate, force her to come out of the crate, or look her directly in the eye. I waited her out. Step one was to make sure she had an awesome place she considered "hers" and it was safe and inviolate - even me, the big scary new person, wont bother her in her safe place. Mosura got food and toys and everything she likes in the crate. And those good things only come directly from me. Don't leave it in the dog's crate for her to find - bring it to her while she is in the crate, so she associates it with you. Next was getting her used to the other people in the house. More of the same, the main difference is that I had my husband walk Mosura for potty breaks and bring her dinner.
When she likes all of the people in the house (not counting tiny children, leave them out of it for now) then its time to get her used to the house itself. I let Mosura explore on her own terms, a small area at a time so she would not feel overwhelmed by the openness. The safety of the crate was always just a short dash away. This went by very quickly for us (faster than Ren in the other thread, it seems). She was able to have limited freedom anywhere in the house or yard within a day or so. She didn't earn the right to be unattended in a room until we knew she wasn't going to chew up stuff. Mosura loves to shred cloth and paper.
Only after she was comfortable with the people and environment did we start introducing her to the other dogs. It took a week or so for us to get to that point. The reason is simple - if there is an incident, you want the dog to know that she can trust you when you step in to break it up. You want the dog to know you're an okay person, not just another participant in the fight to be afraid of or attack. You want the dog to know the area she is in, so she can choose to flee and avoid conflict (always the best choice!) and so she can go to a place she considers safe. A dog that trusts no-one and doesn't know of any safe place to flee to is dangerous in an altercation. Even if its not a fight, a scared dog might bolt through a screen door or window (yes, an Akita can go through your lovely bay window if she's determined enough) or over a fence and get lost. Give her the option to choose to hide in her den, aka the crate.
When you do the actual introductions, it should be on leash and with a handler for each dog. Don't force them close to one another, and if they ignore each other - great! Reward it! Disinterest is just fine, they do not have to be best buddies right away. I find that once I've started doing introductions, it works best to let the dogs see and sniff each other at all times. A wire crate is good for this, or baby gates in the house (although be aware an Akita can easily go through or over a baby gate). That way, the dogs are used to each others' presence and so the introduction sessions are calmer and less exciting. Excitement is bad. Excitement can be redirected into snapping and aggression.
Do not ever correct your dog for communicating that it is unhappy or uncomfortable. A dog that growls in warning is a good thing. It tells you or the other dog it doesn't like what is happening, and you will earn that dog's trust by respecting its boundaries not pushing them. You can't make a dog like something. Correcting a growling dog doesn't make them like what is going on - it just teaches them not to give a warning before they attack.
Remember that 6 months old is a PUPPY! She is the equivalent of a 10-year-old child right now. Most likely she will bounce back very quickly and just want to play - but she doesn't have the manners and canine social graces to respect your adult right now. He will correct her when she is "rude" or gets out of line and she needs to learn that. He's her mentor now. But if your older dog escalates instead of correcting, do not let them fight and "work it out on their own." They may hold a grudge against each other indefinitely, and their relationship with you - their supposed protector - will also degrade.
Drop the dominate crap and make her fun for him. Then they will get along.
Please people for goodness sakes don't hit your dog for showing his true feelings! You're not the boss of your dog you should be family.
Apollo is so good with our one year old, that I was hoping Juliet would be the same way off the bat. I'm sure that was a correct assumption. we would never let our daughter play with a new puppy. Our daughter was sitting next to my wife on the floor when Juliet came up. I think it was playful, but just something I haven't seen before.
I haven't done anything with Juliet other than try to get her attention verbally. I want her to feel very safe with us.
More updates later
Let me add to all of much decent advice above in regard to training....
redirection through poking, prodding and tapping or even mild slapping is most often inappropriate "redirection" in high stress situations. What you must know, some dogs are known to be aggressive toward other dogs, especially dogs of the same gender, cats and other animals. Some dogs display primitive behavior patterns at times and when given a harsh correction a dog may respond to what it interprets as aggression with aggression. This is particularly more pronounced in highly volatile or stressful situations. Always remember that. (Keep in mind what you think is harsh and what the dog thinks is harsh may not be the same and will change depending on context)
Basically, your Kai already knows who is boss and at this point in high threshold situations reminding him of it is not going to change his mental state through what you perceive as minor "redirection" handling. He is clearly telling you he is uncomfortable with the new dog, which means he needs more space away from her. Any encounters should involve rewarding for calmness and if he needs space be sure to let him have it.
Take note, if your Kai has played with other dogs well in the past there is certainly something he is uncomfortable with at the moment with the new dog and you as "boss" should heed that. Forcing anything other than that is a recipe for disaster for long term relationship building between the two dogs and yourself/family.
About the new Akita. She also needs her space. For some dogs it can take many months, 6 months or more with proper integration sessions and separation before it is remotely safe to allow interactions between two animals. Keep in mind many Akitas will not vocalize as much as your Kai will, so when it goes wrong it can go wrong fast in the blink of an eye. Never punish your dog for him telling you that something is wrong in his view in the only way he can tell you.
This brings me to baby/toddler. NEVER EVER put you toddler on the floor with an unknown dog, particularly during times of integration and high threshold situations. As I mention things can go wrong in the blink of an eye and the damage can be life long for your child if something should happen. You will never be able to forgive yourself. Once it is done it is done and it is devastating all around for all parties. If that happens you will be required to either euthanize your dog and or state agency may take the dog away from you. Horrible all around. Have your dog's back and your child's at all times.
Please if you do nothing else look at the following Colleen Pilar's Living with Kids and Dogs without Losing Your Mind. Her website has lots of good tips too.
https://www.dreamdogproductions.com/livingwithkidsanddogs/
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Kids-Dogs-Without-Losing-Your/dp/1933562668
Remember we do not get kick backs for providing all this wise info.... You would be paying tons more $ to get it privately.
Snf
I never attacked this man's character. I didn't act flamboyant or put on a show if that is what that inferred to.
What I am saying is that I do not condone touching an animal in a negative or harmful way.
I believe that if you witness an injustice and do not say anything then you become a part of it. To me it's unjust to put your hands on an animal or a person, and if I see you do it or you tell me about it then well heck yeah I'm going to say something and it's going to come out very forward and honest.
And I will not apologize for it, and do not want others to do so as well.
The latter part of my post is because truly I think it's common sense to know that slapping a dog's muzzle whenever they tell you that anothe dog is bothering them conditions them to associate that dog with getting hit. I'm surprised more people didn't point out that that was a big issue.
He's telling you he wants nothing to do with Juliet so guess what you should do rather than hit him is take her away from him. What a concept! Put her in another room. Introduce them somewhere else. You're pushing him past his comfort zone. You're hitting him while he's there. And you said that you will be the boss. That spells a recipe for disaster to me.
If you don't back down with pushing the dogs on each other you're going to have a fight. I have a female Kai that would've already kicked my puppy's ass if I introduced them like this.
I think he needs more time give both time apart and work with integration slowly.
Go on leashed walks you have Apollo and someone else has Juliet just walking together can help they're not too close to each other, but are both enjoying a nice walk together and not worrying about other trying to sniff or play during it..
He may been fine with dogs in his house, but they're his known friend's probably so it'll take while for him to get used to the new dog.
I don't think correcting a growl is good as the dog might go straight to bite instead of warning the creature bothering him.
@Yandharr, I totally agree with Tara here. Please do not every apologize for other people or assume you know what their motivations are, etc. I had not posted in this thread yet, so I know you weren't apologizing for me, but given that I would have said about the same things, as strongly, I probably had the same kind of reaction Tara did. This is a forum of individuals. You may feel that some posts were "too strong" or "chiding" but others did not, and your reaction is not everyone's reaction. I'm actually quite happy to be part of a forum of people that speak out strongly against things they believe in. The majority of people here do not believe in physical corrections, and many people do find hitting or slapping a dog (regardless of how light the handler might feel it to be) to be problematic. I'm glad people speak out about it.
paulhaan can take the advice offered and sift through it. Perhaps he will be like many of us who came here with one way of working with dogs and learned others in the process. Perhaps he will not change his methods--that's his choice. But if someone asks a question on this forum, we have a right to respond to it in the way we see fit, and I don't think that anyone attacked him--people just were discussing methods. Which is fine. Disagreement and debate is not unhealthy or a problem.
Anyway, back to the question at hand, which I honestly don't have much to add to, because everyone has addressed it so well. I will say, though that you really need to slow down the introductions immediately. It's too much, too fast. This is actually why I posted about the intros. between my Kai Ken puppy and my Akita in your other thread: because even with a puppy it can take a long time. We were 2+ months before the two dogs were able to interact at all (they saw each other through the crates, had very limited interactions when we had two people ready to intervene if things went wrong, etc, but NO other interactions before that, because the couple we'd had went badly: the adult Akita snarled and snapped at the puppy).
Take it slower. Honestly, I'm just astounded by how fast this went--you were looking at a dog, then suddenly had an Akita! seems like the whole process has been too fast for anyone to adjust!
Same with the new dog and the baby, which I'm a little surprised about too--I wouldn't let a new, nervous dog that close to a child on the floor.
And yeah, any kind of slapping is going to cause people here to get upset. And majority of us use positive reinforcement training anyway, and do not subscribe to the dominance theory at all. But there's plenty of threads on books to read to learn a new training style, and why the dominance theory has been debunked, and so there's plenty of help here if you're interested. There is also a thread on why not correcting for snarling is better (I'm so thankful my adult Akita snarled with the puppy, even though he does so silently as is sometimes hard to see--because if he did not, I would not always have been aware how uncomfortable he was with the puppy, and I might not have intervened when I needed to. I'm ok with my dogs snarling! It's a method of commuication!) I know some of us, like me, came here still working on old, outdated training methods, and learned a TON here about handling dogs (and I had a bit of rough intro. too!), so I hope this forum will be useful for you too.
First, in case you all don't know the story, Mei came to me as a foster. She was 15 months old and had been chained to a post in a backyard since she was about 5 months old. She was insecure and fearful, and completely under socialized. Mei took to Koda very quick when we met. I think that her being a Kai-possible Kai mix and him being a Kai made the intro very easy. They were able to read each other very well. Koda is a very sensitive Kai and reads dog communication effectively.
When I brought Mei into the home, she had no ownership of it. She was new and just excited to have attention all day from either Koda or myself. But Mei has always shown me her insecurities. They have diminished over time, but back then she was a resource guarder (all resources: food, crate, me, Koda). She didn't know how to read other dogs, and showed aggression because of fear. Since she lived with me, she has taken to her permanent home at my parent's house. She has grown into a wonderful little girl who is very adored by all of us. You never met a more loving/appreciative dog in your life.
With that said, she still has her insecurities at times.
On Christmas, we were at my parent's house in Tahoe celebrating. Mei owns her homes! She is the queen of the castle now in her head. She loves Tahoe the most because it's where she can run in the woods and play in streams. We were surprised by my ex brother in law who rescued a puppy for my niece (a tiny little Daschund/Chihauha mix named Rosie). Without any notice, Rosie was all of a sudden in the home, dropped off with my niece. This was a shock to all of us, but Mei the most. Mei growled at her and was quickly reprimanded by my family. I warned them that if they continued with that, she would resent Rosie and associate her with her getting in trouble.
No one listened. They kept telling her no all day, and Mei ended up correcting Rosie all the time when she would come near her. It got ugly. Luckily, Rosie lived 3 hours away. But it sucked that we could never have them together and have a peaceful home when she was visiting. Everyone ended up taking my advice, and we had to do a lot of work re-conditioning Mei's response to Rosie. It took a couple of months, but we were able to make the peace. It was never a great relationship though. The humans all messed that up.
When I went to get Mika I wasn't worried about Mei. It wasn't until about a week before she came home that I ended up getting worried. I sat my family down and talked to them about what Mei's reaction would be (snarling) and why she would act like that (insecurity). I wanted them to understand that Mei's reaction couldn't be reprimanded. Her feelings needed to be ACKNOWLEDGED, HONORED, AND VALIDATED.
The introduction to Mika went like this.
Mei snarled at the puppy. I'm sure she was thinking here we go again. She then hopped up on her safe spot, the top of the couch.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT- I walked over to her and petted her head to calm her down. She loves this. I kissed her on her forehead and told her good girl it's ok in a very calm voice. I told her "help you". This is our command for anytime the dogs tell me something is not right. It's my way of telling them that I will help them. They all know it from puppyhood.
HONORING- Never once did I reprimand Mei. I honored her feelings. She wasn't happy with the puppy, that's ok.
VALIDATING- Mei wasn't comfortable with Mika in her home. I walked over to Mika, picked her up, and put her in the backyard with me. Mei has no ownership of the backyard. After being chained in one for a year, she only goes out to potty and runs back in.
Koda followed Mika and I. Mika just enjoyed the backyard, exploring on her own with Koda. About 10 minutes later, Mei's curiosity got the best of her and she came out. Lots of praise and treats were given. She went up to Mika without growling, click and treat some more. She sniffed her, and walked away. Good girl, click and treat.
It went on like this, conditioning Mei to Mika's new existence. This time, we had complete success integrating Mika into the family. Mei and her are best buddies, but they had to do it on Mei's time, not mine.
We still do not feed them together, and they go in their crates for naps. We also don't let Mika or Mei near the other girl's crates. We have ground rules that we need to reinforce that gives both of them their private time.
Since Mika's introduction, my ex brother in law once again surprised my niece with another Daschund/Chihauha puppy. This time we had a 24 hour notice. My sister moved back to town, and poor little Rosie was hit by a car while at a dog sitter in May.
We went through this process again. Acknowledging, honoring, and validating Mei's feelings, and once again they are doing great together!
Hopefully you have some understanding now of my training philosophy. I'm not the best, I'm not a professional, but I do have damn good trusting relationships with all my dogs.
I've been told by trainers and dog enthusiasts to tap/swat a dog's snout when it disobeys. People view it as effective because it's aversive, but not physically harmful. It's not actually the appropriate response, though, whether it hurts or not. I'm very glad that Paul has come here to seek advice from us. Without this forum, I could very well be one of those people swatting my dogs' noses. Enough people have told me that that's the way to be that without the wonders of the internet and free knowledge for all, I probably wouldn't know any better.
I need to warn you that I have unfortunately seen several dogs from these lines that had to be put down after their owners used dominance tactics. I'd hate to see anything like that ever happen again. Not to say Apollo would become aggressive, but if he's a Kai his family members have from that training method.
@tjbart17 I apologized because, regardless of seniority on a forum, it wasn't constructive. Much like yourself, when I see something that's not right, I'd rather speak up than let it ride. I get that everyone has their own style of writing/speaking and each is entitled to their own opinion. But we're here to support other owners and offer knowledge, right? Don't get me wrong, you did have a lot of good to say. There is some other really good advice on here as well, it was direct, in caps even- but constructive. I'm not sure in what way "I rarely get worked up on the forum but you smacking your dog and then wondering why he doesn't like her takes the cake. Seriously? You don't get that?" offers anything constructive- it is insulting. I feel as though I am a forum member just as everyone else and for a newcomer to be insulted for not understanding "our dominant logic", I felt embarrassed- and so I apologized. I really am sorry if it offended you and others.
@shibamistress you write: Please do not every apologize for other people or assume you know what their motivations are... You may feel that some posts were "too strong" or "chiding" but others did not, and your reaction is not everyone's reaction. I'm actually quite happy to be part of a forum of people that speak out strongly against things they believe in.
- So, I felt strongly about the way a forum member was treated, acted on it, and get feedback about "don't ever..." yet you are glad to be part of a forum of people that speak out strongly against things they believe in and, presumably, encourage others to speak out about what they feel. I'm confused, am I encouraged to speak up or is it frowned upon? I never assumed any motivations, such as others' feelings or opinions about a post, only an observation what was written.
@hondru "Our goal here is to facilitate the well-being of these dogs through education" - this is what I should have said I guess.
But it's a good lesson and a good reminder to me too in communication. Use "I" statements. Don't make blanket statements or absolutes like "ever." I did it too. And for that I do apologize, but only for myself!
We disagree on how people should discuss issues like this. I don't feel that people need to sugarcoat things or be super careful (as long people are not rude). That's fine. I'm ok with disagreements!
I got a call from my wife while I was at work. My wife was sitting on the coach, Apollo was outside (my wife was trying to make Juliet feel safe to explore and get to know her). Out of no where, Juliet growled at her, jumped up and bit her face. My wife called mecrying. I don't know what happened exactly.
The owner will get her this evening. She is a gorgeous dog, and a feel so bad about everything.
To everyone commenting on the "physical dominance" part. Would you not pull your dog away if he/she went to attack another dog?
I understand dogs are animals, and can lash out and let their instincts kick in and any dog can turn from best friend to a creature that can hurt you just via instinct. There is a line that I think only an friend and owner of a dog can know.
Pulling dog's apart when they are fighting is different than trying to dominate a dog for communicating their feelings of being uncomfortable. In lieu of the outcome in this. Maybe Apollo should have been listened to. Maybe he saw her communicating her fear and aggression. Maybe he saw something that us humans would've overlooked. When you honor your dog's feelings, you shed light in understanding what they are telling you.
I'm truly sorry it came to this. Maybe we should start a thread, or look back at, the threads that speak to being able to read dog body language behavior.
This Akita came from a forum member right?
You deserve a better outcome with your new addition than this.
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Chrystal ( @WrylyBrindle ) and I discussed this the other day on the phone...
When I started in dogs I was pretty unassuming and quiet. Later, as I educated myself on training and behavior, I became outspoken. I realized I knew more than the majority of dog owner, and got very outspoken and judgmental.
As time went on I got even more confident in my knowledge, I felt I knew 99% more than even the experienced person in dogdom. There were very few people who could teach me something about dogs.
And then, at that point, it was the dogs, not the people, who stepped up and humbled me - they reminded me that we all have things to learn and none of us know everything there is to know about dogs.
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But I would hope the dog would not immediately be put down. I do agree with Brad that a face bite is unacceptable and if it were bad I certainly not say this (so in this case it might be the thing to do--I don't know). But like everything else, I can see shades of gray here. While I absolutely do not mean to suggest paulhaan should have to try and work this out, and I feel terrible about what happened, I would hope that the original owners, who have more knowledge of her, would try to figure out what is going on before putting her down. I could see circumstances that any of my dogs might face bite (none have, but I can see how it could happen). I also had GSD who I almost put down after he bit several people--bad enough to leave black and blue teethmarks. Turned out he had NO thyroid function and never bit again after he was medicated. I'm glad I gave him another chance.
So I would hope that the original owner would try and figure out what is going in before taking this drastic step (unless of course there are reasons to do this that I don't know about it, which is entirely possible).
I do agree that the original owner should handle it from this point as Lisa said and again- so sorry this happened!!
She just needs time. She is great, just not a fit. Please don't put her or her owner in a bad light.