Sometimes a dog that bites while under health problems will still bite after "being cured" of the health problems.
If she's not going to be put down, she should be evaluated by a behaviorist in person to see if she does give clear warnings before resorting to a bite.
Mei bit my face once. I pushed her buttons and didn't realize it. Not to say your wife did anything. But I did and my behavioralist had to show me a lot with Mei. That little girl has taught me a lot. I appreciate our journey together. I'm glad I never put her down.
It's actually something I fear a bit with my Akita. He does give warnings, but the warnings are subtle and you have to be watching closely to see them. He lifts his lip just a tiny bit, but that tiny little snarl means he is really over his threshhold. He's never done it with a person, but I've seen him do it with dogs, and it's really easy to miss if you're not paying attention. Also, because I can read him well, I've seen his stance get stiffer and his eyes harden a bit when strangers (the VET! who should know better!) bent down and kissed him on the head or got too close to his face. It scared the hell out me, actually, because it was a time I thought my dog could bite this woman in the face.
His signals are so subtle that only someone who was used to watching him would see them (obviously even the vet didn't!) He's never been corrected for snarling or growling or anything. It's just how he is. And he's generally a great dog--a soft, biddable Akita with not much reactivity in him (some, but not a lot) and generally ok with people too.
So I'm saying that signals are not always easy to read in dogs, which is why I certainly don't want to lay blame here either. I don't know the dog or the people involved, and it sounds like it is just as paulhaan said--just not a good fit. I hope things can turn out well for the dog as well as everyone involved.
If the dog didn't break the skin of the person's face then I dunno that I'd call it a "bite."
But, if he/she had broken skin, I'm sorry, but a dog that bites the face of a person with no warning should be PTS. Keeping dogs like that around is exactly why there are so many dog bites around the US and why we have BSL. Not every dog should be saved, especially when there are endless dogs who will not bite your face in the rescue system.
Yeah not breaking skin is a nip. But a nip can be scary. Mei didn't bite me to bleed. I would've put her down to keep my family safe. She squints her eyes. That's her signal. She doesn't do it anymore. Her threshold is very high but those early days were rough. I was scared of her at times.
Sometimes a dog that signals before biting is still unacceptable. What chance does a person have to back off if the dog only gives one second of a hard look or a tensed muzzle before jumping up and biting?
One of my dog playfully nips at me - she judges the distance so as to intentionally miss. I wouldn't even call it a snap, since her mouth doesn't close more than half way. I've never feared a bite from her, but have had occasions where I move unexpectedly into her and we accidentally collided. Once her nose hit my glasses, another time her tooth hit my elbow - both of us hurt then.
This is just a tough situation all together. He did say Juliet growled first but it is unclear the time that lapsed between growl and nip. If she growled as a warning and then nipped her- didn't she give clear warning? Or was there no time to "back off" etc. between growl and nip?
I agree that not all dogs can be saved and some should be PTS but I also believe that it is worth it to look into it a bit more and see what is going on- health, etc. I also agree that this was a nip not a bite (I am not minimizing the situation or stress on paul and his family by saying that). I have rescued dogs that were said to be "vicious" and so on and one of the greatest dogs I have ever known was one of these dogs... I am not saying this can be said about all dogs that have bitten nor even most cases but there are exceptions. I am just not sure Juliet is one of these pups that should be termed "aggressive". She did not break the skin so to me it was a warning nip but I do not know exactly what happened so I am guessing. She was extremely stressed and fearful from the time he brought her home. I hope they (previous owner) seek professional help before making any decisions. i.e. vet, behaviorist, etc.
I know this was very scary for Paul and his family and I hate that this happened.
I am the original owner of Juliet. She is with me at home right now. She never growled with us. My daughter is 6 years old and she is good with her. When I went to take her she was calm and his wife was the one who brought her to me and she was calm with her. When we went back home (3 hours trip) she was afraid to come out of the car. I think she didn't want to leave me. She is a great dog and I am going to keep her.
I 100% agree with Brad. It's worth investigating, for sure, and absolutely worth a behavior and medical assessment, but dogs that do this become a liability and a public risk, regardless if they were unfairly stressed at the time. Unfortunate, but true. Since this home seems very dog naive, I'm hoping it was all human error and not the dog itself being unstable/unpredictable.
We were supposed to move to a house by the end of the year but that is not going to happen and the apartment owner told me that they don't allow two large breed dogs. I called her again and I have to pay extra insurance so I can keep her.
I already spoke to the akita rescue and they will help me to find a behaviorist. I am now afraid on my daughter because she always put her face infront the akita face.
Wow, what a charged thread. @paulhaan--I'm really sorry to hear about about your wife. I hope everything is ok. This must be o traumatizing for you guys!
I am glad that she has relaxed some. When she was at the boarding facility a little while back did they have any problems with her being fearful? (Previous thread- I just remember reading something about her being sick the day after she came home) How long have you had the Malamute pup? I ask because it seems that Juliet has had some problems (food, weight, diarrhea off and on, etc.) and I just wonder if all of that plus the new pup then the move to a new home and family was just completely and utterly overwhelming for her.
How is she acting with the family members tonight?
Oh AngelLight two puppies?!?! I have been on hiatus so I had to go through your posts, but one puppy seemed stressful. Are you sure you're ok with two?
I'm going to call this out before someone else does but it seemed like you were having a difficult time with her. Did you get another dog to put her up for adoption? Are you ok with having her? I'm worried for you.
Actually I got another dog so they can play together and my plan since I got her is to get another puppy when she reach 5-6 months. I have the 2nd puppy for a month now and since I got him her appetite became better and she love playing with him.He love her and he follow her everywhere which was a good thing for training him to like the leash. She is really calm,we got home around 8 and I fed her and she is acting normal and she didn't do anything out of her usual behaviour.
I am really glad @angelLight can keep her. I have a big heart for dogs, and the last 2 days has been really traumatic for everyone involved. It has been our dream for two years to get another Japanese dog. Because of this scenario, we are too scared now to look at having two dogs. It was just too stressful of a situation. Maybe I'm overreacting, but the only way I think we could have two dogs was if we got a 8 week old puppy and could have complete control from there. Maybe if we didn't have a daughter that was so young it would be ok. If I was home all the time, and didn't have a daughter, it would have been fine. I am really really happy @AngelLight can keep her, as she seemed really attached to their family and his 6 year old really was attached to her as well. I wish all the best to Juliet and hope she part of that family for a long time.
@paulhaan Don't let this experience prevent you from getting another dog... You started out to quick with high expectations and it was too much for both dogs. Learn from it and move on! I haven't commented on this subject because I had nothing new to contribute to what has been said... but on the subject of giving up and being "traumatized" I'm a pro! You had 2 horrific days? Try 30! And then on and off for 3 more months!
When we got our Shikoku Ken (ChoCho) we never had a problem with aggression. Luckily her previous owners were the best people on earth and NK gurus. BUT she hid under a desk without coming out for a week. We had to pull her out from under the table so that she could us the bathroom and when she was out she paced non-stop like a wild animal. She was TERRIFIED of everything that moved, made noise, and wasn't me. We finally after a week started to take her on walks and she would bolt in the opposite direction when she saw someone. Because of the stress she had slimy and green stool that smelled like death for 2 months! We debated about her driving her back to NM (11 hour drive one way) everyday, multiple times a day. I cried... I was depressed... I almost final my last 2 classes in collage because of it, treating my potential of graduating! For those who know me on this forum know that I've been researching and waiting for Nihon Ken for 3 YEARS! 3 years I dreamt and spoke nothing but NK... (I was annoying... BUT I WAS SO EXCITED!). I was utterly heartbroken when ChoCo seemed to hate being with us so much! It broke my heart that things weren't turning out. It broke my heart that now that my dream came true... it was a nightmare. It was the WORST FEELING EVER!!!! 3 FREAKING YEARS of waiting!!!!... and she didn't want us.
But, then everything changed. Thanks to the encouragement of her former owners and their unfailing care and advise, we decided to keep her and work with her. We enrolled her in training classes, walked her for 1 hour 3x a day, even got her a Kai puppy to play with. Although nothing was as smooth as we would have liked, she started to come out of her shell. After a month her tail finally curled up again! Another month she started to PLAY WITH US! She loved her classes, she loved playing with Goro, she LOVED her walks. 3 weeks ago we moved out of Utah and to Miami, Fl and she's changed sooo much!
I LOVE my Shikoku and kai. I LOVE having two dogs. Best decision ever. I Love talking about them to people and seeing how much ChoCho has improved. I LOVE her to bits. She's our pretty lady, our foxy mama. I would never tread her for anything!
We would do those horrible months with her again. She is so amazing and everything I waited for. (Goro is my baby. I really got the best of both worlds!)
The Nihon Ken are the best dogs in the world. Hands down! I'm so happy I waited for the right time and the right dogs.
Do not give up. Do not give in to your bad experience. Because I heard the advice that was given to me, I've been able to give my dogs a better life, a happier life and as a result I am happier. I can also help those around me, much like people in the forum do everyday.
That said, the Nihon Ken are very special, but they are not fit for everyone.
I agree with Hinata....don't give up because this wasn't a good match. This all went way too fast, and was probably just not a good fit. And also a puppy is no guarantee it will be easy. I've said already it took us 2+ months to get our puppy intergrated into our family. 2 + months of no real contact between the Akita and puppy.
Bringing another often takes a lot of time and energy, and it can take months. So when you are ready, just remember that it can take a long time and be patient and take it slow.
@angellight, I don't know what to say about Juliet, but having two puppies can be very stressful and hard, and it sounds like she has not been an easy dog. I hope you're able to get help with her. If you can't, you may want to talk to Akita rescue. I don't know, honestly, if they'd take a dog who bit like this, but it does seem an experienced Akita person may be able to help her and turn her around. I suspect she's an anxious, fearful dog, and I know from experience that can be a long, difficult road. There are also physical health issues to check, like her thyroid.
Comments
Sometimes a dog that bites while under health problems will still bite after "being cured" of the health problems.
If she's not going to be put down, she should be evaluated by a behaviorist in person to see if she does give clear warnings before resorting to a bite.
His signals are so subtle that only someone who was used to watching him would see them (obviously even the vet didn't!) He's never been corrected for snarling or growling or anything. It's just how he is. And he's generally a great dog--a soft, biddable Akita with not much reactivity in him (some, but not a lot) and generally ok with people too.
So I'm saying that signals are not always easy to read in dogs, which is why I certainly don't want to lay blame here either. I don't know the dog or the people involved, and it sounds like it is just as paulhaan said--just not a good fit. I hope things can turn out well for the dog as well as everyone involved.
But, if he/she had broken skin, I'm sorry, but a dog that bites the face of a person with no warning should be PTS. Keeping dogs like that around is exactly why there are so many dog bites around the US and why we have BSL. Not every dog should be saved, especially when there are endless dogs who will not bite your face in the rescue system.
----
I agree that not all dogs can be saved and some should be PTS but I also believe that it is worth it to look into it a bit more and see what is going on- health, etc. I also agree that this was a nip not a bite (I am not minimizing the situation or stress on paul and his family by saying that). I have rescued dogs that were said to be "vicious" and so on and one of the greatest dogs I have ever known was one of these dogs... I am not saying this can be said about all dogs that have bitten nor even most cases but there are exceptions. I am just not sure Juliet is one of these pups that should be termed "aggressive". She did not break the skin so to me it was a warning nip but I do not know exactly what happened so I am guessing. She was extremely stressed and fearful from the time he brought her home. I hope they (previous owner) seek professional help before making any decisions. i.e. vet, behaviorist, etc.
I know this was very scary for Paul and his family and I hate that this happened.
I thought she was an only dog? Did you get another puppy?
How long have you had the Malamute pup? I ask because it seems that Juliet has had some problems (food, weight, diarrhea off and on, etc.) and I just wonder if all of that plus the new pup then the move to a new home and family was just completely and utterly overwhelming for her.
How is she acting with the family members tonight?
I'm going to call this out before someone else does but it seemed like you were having a difficult time with her. Did you get another dog to put her up for adoption? Are you ok with having her? I'm worried for you.
She is really calm,we got home around 8 and I fed her and she is acting normal and she didn't do anything out of her usual behaviour.
When we got our Shikoku Ken (ChoCho) we never had a problem with aggression. Luckily her previous owners were the best people on earth and NK gurus. BUT she hid under a desk without coming out for a week. We had to pull her out from under the table so that she could us the bathroom and when she was out she paced non-stop like a wild animal. She was TERRIFIED of everything that moved, made noise, and wasn't me. We finally after a week started to take her on walks and she would bolt in the opposite direction when she saw someone. Because of the stress she had slimy and green stool that smelled like death for 2 months! We debated about her driving her back to NM (11 hour drive one way) everyday, multiple times a day. I cried... I was depressed... I almost final my last 2 classes in collage because of it, treating my potential of graduating! For those who know me on this forum know that I've been researching and waiting for Nihon Ken for 3 YEARS! 3 years I dreamt and spoke nothing but NK... (I was annoying... BUT I WAS SO EXCITED!). I was utterly heartbroken when ChoCo seemed to hate being with us so much! It broke my heart that things weren't turning out. It broke my heart that now that my dream came true... it was a nightmare. It was the WORST FEELING EVER!!!! 3 FREAKING YEARS of waiting!!!!... and she didn't want us.
But, then everything changed. Thanks to the encouragement of her former owners and their unfailing care and advise, we decided to keep her and work with her. We enrolled her in training classes, walked her for 1 hour 3x a day, even got her a Kai puppy to play with. Although nothing was as smooth as we would have liked, she started to come out of her shell. After a month her tail finally curled up again! Another month she started to PLAY WITH US! She loved her classes, she loved playing with Goro, she LOVED her walks. 3 weeks ago we moved out of Utah and to Miami, Fl and she's changed sooo much!
I LOVE my Shikoku and kai. I LOVE having two dogs. Best decision ever. I Love talking about them to people and seeing how much ChoCho has improved. I LOVE her to bits. She's our pretty lady, our foxy mama. I would never tread her for anything!
We would do those horrible months with her again. She is so amazing and everything I waited for. (Goro is my baby. I really got the best of both worlds!)
The Nihon Ken are the best dogs in the world. Hands down! I'm so happy I waited for the right time and the right dogs.
Do not give up. Do not give in to your bad experience. Because I heard the advice that was given to me, I've been able to give my dogs a better life, a happier life and as a result I am happier. I can also help those around me, much like people in the forum do everyday.
That said, the Nihon Ken are very special, but they are not fit for everyone.
Bringing another often takes a lot of time and energy, and it can take months. So when you are ready, just remember that it can take a long time and be patient and take it slow.
@angellight, I don't know what to say about Juliet, but having two puppies can be very stressful and hard, and it sounds like she has not been an easy dog. I hope you're able to get help with her. If you can't, you may want to talk to Akita rescue. I don't know, honestly, if they'd take a dog who bit like this, but it does seem an experienced Akita person may be able to help her and turn her around. I suspect she's an anxious, fearful dog, and I know from experience that can be a long, difficult road. There are also physical health issues to check, like her thyroid.