Apollo: Behavioral Corrections
I really don't want to talk about the other threads in here, but would like to talk a bit about dog behavioral correction,
I have a Kai mix, Apollo. For those of you that have followed along the last 2 days in the other threads, you probably know a little of the background.
I rescued Apollo when he was just under one year old from a local shelter. His owners surrendered him because they couldn't handle his prey drive and he kept jumping their fence and running away. When I got him over 4 years ago, he wouldn't listen to anyone for any commands. The cool part was though, that we bonded really well. For the first few weeks, he wouldn't listen to me, but he would follow me pretty much everywhere, and seemed quite happy. It took up to 5 months after getting him for him to even warm up to anyone else without fear that he might lash out. I never used any sort of physical contact with him, only rewards and letting him learn on his own time. I believe it has worked very very well.
I learned when he was about two, that physical contact can turn bad. He once got into some food that my wife prepared, and in anger, I reached for his collar to bring him outside and he took a good gash out of my arm. I deserved it, I was angry and he probably thought I was going to grab him and he just reacted on instinct.
Apollo is a well-behaved and socialized dog that I feel confident he will obey any command off leash, in front of dogs or prey. There have been a few (and I mean a handful or less) times where I can see Apollo is snarling at something, or getting upset. After a few verbal commands to stop, if his behavior continues. I will still playfully swat his snout. His demeanor then goes back to wagging his tails and his lip quivering stops. I was highly criticized for this approach in another thread and was wondering what else everyone might recommend that would give immediate results. I don't really use food/toys as a reward these days as he gets super excited just to have a big hug, or tell him how good of a boy he is. That has worked really well in the past years to get him to learn new tricks.
thoughts?
I have a Kai mix, Apollo. For those of you that have followed along the last 2 days in the other threads, you probably know a little of the background.
I rescued Apollo when he was just under one year old from a local shelter. His owners surrendered him because they couldn't handle his prey drive and he kept jumping their fence and running away. When I got him over 4 years ago, he wouldn't listen to anyone for any commands. The cool part was though, that we bonded really well. For the first few weeks, he wouldn't listen to me, but he would follow me pretty much everywhere, and seemed quite happy. It took up to 5 months after getting him for him to even warm up to anyone else without fear that he might lash out. I never used any sort of physical contact with him, only rewards and letting him learn on his own time. I believe it has worked very very well.
I learned when he was about two, that physical contact can turn bad. He once got into some food that my wife prepared, and in anger, I reached for his collar to bring him outside and he took a good gash out of my arm. I deserved it, I was angry and he probably thought I was going to grab him and he just reacted on instinct.
Apollo is a well-behaved and socialized dog that I feel confident he will obey any command off leash, in front of dogs or prey. There have been a few (and I mean a handful or less) times where I can see Apollo is snarling at something, or getting upset. After a few verbal commands to stop, if his behavior continues. I will still playfully swat his snout. His demeanor then goes back to wagging his tails and his lip quivering stops. I was highly criticized for this approach in another thread and was wondering what else everyone might recommend that would give immediate results. I don't really use food/toys as a reward these days as he gets super excited just to have a big hug, or tell him how good of a boy he is. That has worked really well in the past years to get him to learn new tricks.
thoughts?
Comments
In all matters, constant positive training builds trust over time so immediate results may not come.
I'm not a dog expert. It's because I'm not that I have to listen to them when they are telling me something. I believe, and I may be incorrect, that aggression is derived from fear, insecurity, etc.
When you spoke of dominance theory before, it took me back. It's the exact opposite of what I believe aggression to be derived from.
There have been several times when Mei goes into the snarling mode. I have to reassure her that everything is ok, and that I'm there to take care of her. I don't always hug her in that mode. She might lash back at me, but I do comfort her. I do the whole baby talk and tell her she's my good girl. It calms her down, and she is able to see that things are not a threat.
I'm not perfect. I've gotten mad at her before for her behavior, but I try not to show it. I keep it in until I can calm her down. This can be very difficult. She's done some sh*t in the past that I wanted to just yell at her for. But if she's going to trust me, I just can't. If she feared me, then she would've bitten me a long time ago.
I'm sorry to hear that Apollo has bitten you in the past. I think you know why he did.
I think that instead of just telling him to stop, maybe you should try and learn from him why he is snarling. Then you can limit those situations.
When Apollo's owners surrendered him, did they say where he was from? Did they confirm him being a Kai?
I am not looking to simply learn what is making him act that way, and then avoid that scenario. There are times where a dog is placed in a scenario that a dog will have a bad behavior with. You cannot always avoid the scenario. I am have a B.S. in behavioral psych, but that isn't specific to animals, just more general principles that I have adapted.
what would your recommendations be for redirection/stopping behavior when verbal commands/words don't work??
When your dog starts to preform a "major infractions", I would simply remove him from the situation - or remove the thing that is rewarding the behavior (like if he jumps on you for attention, you can turn your back on him and ignore him - this removes you, the reward, from the situation).
Say, you are walking your dog and another person walking a dog comes up to you and your dogs responds with some behavior you don't like - like a snarl - I would immediately (and without a sound) walk your dog away - drag him if you need to (but not violently - no leash jerks). Wait a few seconds (like 20) and then try it again. Rinse and repeat. Your dog will "get it" very quickly.
Same applies to resource guarding, if your dog starts to growl over an object, remove the dog from the situation. DO NOT remove the object, instead you should put the dog in a short time-out.
This is punishment, but it is not Positive Punishment. So, it has a much lower risk of hurting your relationship with the dog than a positive punishment type of correction (where the dog could become fearful of you hitting him).
Here is a good read on using time-outs: http://www.dogspelledforward.com/time-out-dog-training/
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Paulhann writes: "There have been a few (and I mean a handful or less) times where I can see Apollo is snarling at something, or getting upset. After a few verbal commands to stop, if his behavior continues. I will still playfully swat his snout. His demeanor then goes back to wagging his tails and his lip quivering stops"
--In terms of analogy for tapping on the nose. If you are afraid or unsure of bees or spiders and what not, and you become anxious or become unsettled by them or irritated /angry and growl etc or want to run..... and your wife tells you to knock it off, does it really stop your anxious state or irritation? Does that help the adrenaline really go down. If she says "knock it off" or I am going to correct you, will that offer further reassurance? If you are like most of us I would hazard a guess and say probably not.
In trying to be agreeable you may try to contain yourself, until you can no longer stand the buzzing and your skin begins to crawl and you just can't take it any more. Unfortunately your wife becomes further irritated that hubby can not control himself and starts to lightly smack him on the nose or smack the back of the head. Each time she announces in jest it's all in good fun....good redirection, just playing right. The incident may be passed over once, or maybe twice, BUT at what point does the persistent nagging and physical tapping become really irritating and in return you decide to slap her back? Not too long I would imagine. What does this teach you other than your wife is really annoying and maybe she needs corrected instead.
Have you seen this type of thing between kids, how about your brother or sister? I am not touching you, just hovering. How about the incessant pestering or creeping into another individual's space? Dogs are no different, if there is something irritating that animal/mammal or finds annoying it needs distance away far enough from the source to calm down and reassess. You as owner can aid in that process by moving away or taking them out of the situation. Sometimes (as you found out) touching is NOT a good thing. Just taking away the physical or social pressure is enough to allow for the brain to calm down is helpful.
Another example, If you are at high threshold say you had a bad day and wrecked into another car. You are stressed and you can't find your insurance card and begin to grumble...do you want to be to be tapped in the nose or slapped on the back of the head. What would you do if you were? Hell you probably just want to get the heck out of there as quick as possible to distance yourself from the situation, if you couldn't you just may give it right back or take it out on another source. In this sense most mammals are no different.
You ask What can you do? We can't ignore the emotional state of the dog. The point being you need to look at the subtle changes in the dog before it escalates. Watch for signs such as breathing pattern changes, body posture shifts, lip compression, constriction of the pupils and switch the activity to something less threatening that allows the dog to calm down. Pushing into a dog does not ease pressure, more often that not it forces a reaction. You can use default behaviors such as sit and down when at distance from source of irritation and reward for those activities.
Paulhann writes: "I don't use food or toys since he is just as happy to get hugs".
--Ok with this statement I ask. would you paint someone's entire two story house for $5. The difficulty of the situation should equate to a high pay out, particularly in reducing reactivity. Why offer your dog 5 cents for a 500 dollar job. You may think your hugs are the greatest in the world but you really have to show that you pay big time for prime service ie. good behavior in high impact situations = big big bonus. A bonus that is really high on the dogs list beyond the physical. Tricks are one thing, hazard pay is another. Moving away and rewarding for calming is so important.
Snf
I would add that we also have a good thread on training books which you might want to take a look at. The Karon Pryor books in particular (like "Don't Shoot the Dog!") also include background about why the methods work (Pryor was developed the clicker training method with dolphins and large mammals before she ever applied it to dogs). It is based in good behavioral science.
These might be a good place to start. I very much remember coming to learning this kind of training myself, and I had to get my head around the whole idea, which included learning why some of my ideas were not actually that useful. One of the things I had to get past was the need to "show" the dog what was wrong (ie. punishment). Once I got past that, and realized it was a matter of rewarding behavior I liked and teaching the dog alternative behaviors to ones I didn't like, I realized you really can let go of the whole idea of what Brad refers to as positive punishment--it simply wasn't necessary. I could get better results in other ways.
And there is nothing wrong with using motivators to get a dog to work. In fact, as Snf notes above, it makes sense. Why NOT motivate a dog to work joyfully with the idea of a reward? I'm honestly astounded that everyone doesn't do it, because it makes dog training so much easier and so much more of a pleasant experience for everyone.
One other thing worth noting, and there's a thread around here somewhere about it. I would not correct a dog for snarling or growling. It's a method of communication, and is actually very useful information as I said in the other thread. It's better to know a dog is uncomfortable and figure out what it is uncomfortable about and deal with it, rather than to have a dog that has been corrected for growling who now gives NO warnings before escalating to a bite. I don't know if that is what happened with the Akita or not, but it often happens with dogs that have been corrected for snarling/growling--they now have no way to communicate their unease and so go from zero to bite very quickly, or so it looks to us. If they had not been taught not to growl, there may have been a warning there first, which is the sign for the human to take the dog out of the situation.
I couldn't find the thread on this forum (is there one?) but did find it on the Shiba side: http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8309/thank-you-for-growling/p1
And here is another link on the same topic: http://www.examiner.com/article/thank-your-dog-for-growling
this one refers to a very good behavioral modification "game" called "Look at That!" which is really useful. The book this is in is also a GREAT training book, called "Control Unleashed."