Bad vet visit rant....very bad news about my friend's GSD
This does not involve an NK, or not really, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
So the vet me and my best friend take our dogs to is usually out of town 1 week out of the month. When that happens, we both go to another vet in town. Granted, I've had a few problems with this vet in town: the first vet we saw there, while nice, made us spend a whole lot of money redoing xrays Oskar had already had, and then not noticing what were clearly bone spurs. Another time we went there and the vet got very worked up about Bel's phenobarbital usage, even though she was there for a dog bite. Yeah, the pb is not what is causing her to limp--see those puncture wounds? That's it! The pb is for her seizure disorder, that yes, she really does have!
But my friend decided to bring her GSD in there today anyway, because they have weekend appts. Her GSD has been lethargic, not eating (but not vomiting or diarrhea) and drinking a ton and peeing a lot, even in the house, which he never does. His belly is a bit distended too. He's been like this since Tues, and now seems to be on the mend but the bloating, while not huge, was still a bit disturbing, so she decided to go in.
So we get in, the vet tech takes the dog's temp, and my friend hands her a list of her dog's medical history, his meds (thyroid), his diet, etc. Then the vet comes in. She has not touched the dog, except to pet his ears. She reads the notes my friend supplied and says "oh, so he eats raw? Do you know that the vet association has voted against the raw food diet? That's it's dangerous," etc. I say something about selling out to the pet food industry because I couldn't help myself, and the vet goes on about "the studies show this is bad for dogs." (BTW, we told the vet the truth which was likely a mistake: Gideon has been on a raw diet since he was weaned. He is 8 years old and had no health problems at all up to this point, except for being hypothyroid). Then she said she wasn't going to argue--she was just trying to educate us on this dangerous practice.
So then she starts writing up a bill and prescriptions. She said he obviously had a GI problems, possibly salmonella from the raw food. She was going to give him probiotics, antibiotics and a dewormer. Then she starts to leave. So I said, um, wait, are you going to examine him? Because he has not shown much gastric distress except the lack of appetite, but he is drinking a lot and feels a bit bloated.
She sighs, then says yes, she guess she'll examine him, and she does, and finds he's a bit distended around the spleen/liver, and has slightly inflamed lymph nodes. So she starts talking about bloat, and how diet can make him bloat, and how we need to x-ray him for bloat right now, because he could die, and diet contributes to bloat, etc. My friend pointed out that she was aware of bloat, that he did not show symptoms of it, and if he had, he would have died by now, since this started four days ago. The vet looks really annoyed with us by this point.
And to add insult to injury, the vet said "oh his teeth look great for a dog his age." Yeah, because he eats a raw diet with bones.
After this, they came up with a bill of $800. My friend declined the xrays (she's going to wait til our vet is in town) but agreed to the blood work, and refused the dewormer and other stuff for his stomach (dewormer, but they never took a fecal sample). Then they tried to get a urine sample, but the vet tech didn't realize Gideon was peeing because he doesn't lift his leg, so they never got that. We gave up, finally, and after a reduced bill of $250, went home.
She still doesn't know what is going on with her dog, because the bloodwork, thankfully, was normal..
It was pretty awful overall. Obviously, we both need to find another vet we can see when ours is out of town. Beyond pushing procedures/meds that I think were not necessary, and beyond disliking the diet (our regular vet doesn't like raw either, but we have agreed to disagree on this and don't get lectures), I was really annoyed by the fact that the vet seemed to assume that we were entirely ignorant of canine health and seemed annoyed when we actually questioned her at all. I was a bit abrupt about the lecture on raw food, but otherwise was pretty polite and just asked questions, but clearly this vet is in the "I'm the expert and you're not" mode which was annoying in the extreme.
UGH! (Rant over!)
So the vet me and my best friend take our dogs to is usually out of town 1 week out of the month. When that happens, we both go to another vet in town. Granted, I've had a few problems with this vet in town: the first vet we saw there, while nice, made us spend a whole lot of money redoing xrays Oskar had already had, and then not noticing what were clearly bone spurs. Another time we went there and the vet got very worked up about Bel's phenobarbital usage, even though she was there for a dog bite. Yeah, the pb is not what is causing her to limp--see those puncture wounds? That's it! The pb is for her seizure disorder, that yes, she really does have!
But my friend decided to bring her GSD in there today anyway, because they have weekend appts. Her GSD has been lethargic, not eating (but not vomiting or diarrhea) and drinking a ton and peeing a lot, even in the house, which he never does. His belly is a bit distended too. He's been like this since Tues, and now seems to be on the mend but the bloating, while not huge, was still a bit disturbing, so she decided to go in.
So we get in, the vet tech takes the dog's temp, and my friend hands her a list of her dog's medical history, his meds (thyroid), his diet, etc. Then the vet comes in. She has not touched the dog, except to pet his ears. She reads the notes my friend supplied and says "oh, so he eats raw? Do you know that the vet association has voted against the raw food diet? That's it's dangerous," etc. I say something about selling out to the pet food industry because I couldn't help myself, and the vet goes on about "the studies show this is bad for dogs." (BTW, we told the vet the truth which was likely a mistake: Gideon has been on a raw diet since he was weaned. He is 8 years old and had no health problems at all up to this point, except for being hypothyroid). Then she said she wasn't going to argue--she was just trying to educate us on this dangerous practice.
So then she starts writing up a bill and prescriptions. She said he obviously had a GI problems, possibly salmonella from the raw food. She was going to give him probiotics, antibiotics and a dewormer. Then she starts to leave. So I said, um, wait, are you going to examine him? Because he has not shown much gastric distress except the lack of appetite, but he is drinking a lot and feels a bit bloated.
She sighs, then says yes, she guess she'll examine him, and she does, and finds he's a bit distended around the spleen/liver, and has slightly inflamed lymph nodes. So she starts talking about bloat, and how diet can make him bloat, and how we need to x-ray him for bloat right now, because he could die, and diet contributes to bloat, etc. My friend pointed out that she was aware of bloat, that he did not show symptoms of it, and if he had, he would have died by now, since this started four days ago. The vet looks really annoyed with us by this point.
And to add insult to injury, the vet said "oh his teeth look great for a dog his age." Yeah, because he eats a raw diet with bones.
After this, they came up with a bill of $800. My friend declined the xrays (she's going to wait til our vet is in town) but agreed to the blood work, and refused the dewormer and other stuff for his stomach (dewormer, but they never took a fecal sample). Then they tried to get a urine sample, but the vet tech didn't realize Gideon was peeing because he doesn't lift his leg, so they never got that. We gave up, finally, and after a reduced bill of $250, went home.
She still doesn't know what is going on with her dog, because the bloodwork, thankfully, was normal..
It was pretty awful overall. Obviously, we both need to find another vet we can see when ours is out of town. Beyond pushing procedures/meds that I think were not necessary, and beyond disliking the diet (our regular vet doesn't like raw either, but we have agreed to disagree on this and don't get lectures), I was really annoyed by the fact that the vet seemed to assume that we were entirely ignorant of canine health and seemed annoyed when we actually questioned her at all. I was a bit abrupt about the lecture on raw food, but otherwise was pretty polite and just asked questions, but clearly this vet is in the "I'm the expert and you're not" mode which was annoying in the extreme.
UGH! (Rant over!)
Comments
Sounds a little like cushings.
*edit* and maybe lymphoma. Hopefully it's not more than some infection.
Anyway, I hope your friend's GSD will get check very soon and that is nothing. Good Luck!
Hope the GSD gets over what ailment this is...
Just out of curiosity (to you or others), when you have bad experiences at the vet, especially if they're consistently bad experiences, do you ever post to review sites like Yelp?
Gideon's kidney levels were ok....no elevated BUN or creatine. Very slight elevated WBCs but that's it. I thought kidneys too, immediately, which was scary...but the bloodwork doesn't seem to be bearing that out. My friend is going to have a urinalysis done too, now that she was able to get some pee from him. Gideon seems to feel much better today and is eating (boiled chicken and rice for now) and was playing with Leo this afternoon, so he's not in dire health, but the swelling in the abdomen is troubling. I also worried about liver issues as I lost a dog to liver cancer, and she swelled in the abdomen like that, but the blood work wasn't out of the ordinary.
And yeah, M.C., the first thing I thought was to review them somewhere, because this was really, really bad. So we will do that. And it was two different vets there we've had problems with. The first one that I dealt wasn't as bad, and at least was willing to treat as if we knew something about our dog--the issue there was more typical, just the "run every possible test." But this second one was awful.
(Not EXAMINING the patient is a huge issue, and I feel that's terrible! I think a bit too much emphasis has been placed on the vet's desire to inform, which I see as a good thing, however.)
@Sachi dogs can be diabetic I know of someone who's dog is not sure what kind I never asked details on it..
I think cats get it too I'm not sure..
I hope the GSD gets better soon.
I fear more and more vets will be pushed to discourage diets and quick to blame raw on things.
Vets already do before this AVMA thing.
So far my vet doesn't know on it hasn't asked.
I wish more vets would get informed on raw diets so at least they can ask what are you feeding in case the person isn't feeding it right coarse most vets might not know how the diet should be..
Though maybe this will bring more demand for vets or holistic vets who support raw diet because people will seek them out..
Closest holistic vet is in Indianapolis I think so 2hours away.. I don't think I'd go to one due to how far though..
Drinking a lot of water is odd especially for raw fed dog. Saya doesn't drink as much as Bella who is kibble fed.. She does drink, but not as much due to moisture in her food.
I hope things get figured out soon.
And the AVMA vote on this has been extremely suspect, and many vets have spoken out against it. So yes, I do have serious problems with the way this vet approached this. (In the past, I've worked with other vets who have not liked the diet, and we've simply agreed to disagree on this).
Bottom line? Maybe many people are idiots. But when I come to as a paying customer, with a good understanding of canine health and nutrition, and when I am treated like I am an idiot and the dog's actual issues are ignored by a vet who has an agenda about diet, then I will not spend my money at that clinic again, and I will be sure to tell other people--including my regular vet--about my experience.
And yes, Saya, I do think it is going to be worse and worse since the AVMA vote. It has always been a problem with some vets, but I do think it's likely to get worse.
I'll probably try the holistic vet here myself, and my friend got a rec from her breeder about another local vet who is worth a try.
I have worked in vet clinics many years and I cannot remember one time that a vet treated a client (or their pet) this way...... Very sad.
Before my dalmatian was diagnosed with bladder crystals, just a couple of months after we adopted him and while we were visiting family, an emergency vet diagnosed him as having been hit by a car because he had blood in his urine. Not even kidding. We were stunned because Kratos hadn't even been out around any streets, and the vet obviously hadn't put much into examining him. He clearly had no broken bones or anything like that. We decided to end our visit and drive to our usual vet because of that. Turned out it was bladder crystals and he needed surgery.
The AVMA vote is so disheartening and frustrating.
I hope the GSD feels better soon, and I hope neither of you have to experience that with a vet again.
I do not want any professional who is responsible for the health and welfare of my pets to assume that I already know everything there is to know about the subject. I will tolerate hearing stuff I already know or do not agree with on the off chance that I might learn something new. That new tidbit of information could be critical or merely annecdotal, but nonetheless I do not want them to hold their tongue.
A vet is a professional and I am not. That doesn't mean his or her word is gospel and I will blindly follow all advised courses of action. But to think I know more than him or her is hubris. I will consider heavily the vet's advice. (Case in point: My vet recently recommended megestrol for Mosura, after doing research I decided against it, but I did not dismiss it out of hand.)
The title of this thread and the original post has a great deal of emphasis and scorn derived from the vet's attempts to inform about diet. I felt more emphasis should have been placed on the other experiences of the visit ("zomg this vet diagnosed and prescribed treatment for a dog without even examining him!").
EDIT: There is a lot of venom in the original post directed at the vet for disagreeing about raw feeding, and because of that, I have difficulty figuring out how much bias colors the rest of the post. I am unable to come to a clear conclusion about the vet from this "review."
The old name for Megace was Ovaban. It's a birth control hormone. In human medicine it's a great appetite stimulant although it can and does cause breast development, but since it's mostly given to older cancer patients, it's the lesser of two evils. In Vet medicine it's highly regulated and was most often given to help curb spraying in cats and such, IME. Not sure why it would be a good solution for a breeding dog.
The vet recommended megestrol to prevent her from coming into heat for a while. However, it can cause diabetes, liver failure, and pyometra - and there is no way in hell I am doing anything that has pyo as a possible side effect after having it twice. Also I spoke to some show people who used it to keep bitches out of heat while traveling for major shows; dogs who had no fertility problems prior to being on megestrol had difficulty coming into heat, conceiving, and carrying a litter to term after being taken off of it. No thanks!
@PoeticDragon, no your point was very clear. I got it the first time and I get it the second time. I just don't agree with you. You've made it very clear that you think it is "hubris" for me to think I know more than a vet about nutrition, and that I show "bias" because I'm pissed off about the treatment we received. Yes, I do show bias. I was pissed off (hence the rant). Obviously we disagree on what is good care. Thanks for your opinion.
I'm lucky that my usual vet does not make snap judgements, and is really good about listening to client concerns and questions. They've taught me a ton, too, and one of the things they've taught me is to be critical about care, to ask questions, to find out why and how a diagnosis has been reached. They said, once, jokingly, that they've probably ruined us for the kind of vets who don't work with clients as a partnership, and they probably have. (at least the other vet at this clinic was ok--when we began talking about Oskar's problems and she saw I did indeed know what I was talking about, she immediately shifted gears and started discussing it in more technical detail and more as if I was not an idiot.)
And another local vet horror story I saw via FB--local Akita breeder had to take her dog in for an emergency C-section. Her vet would charge $500, but could not come due to a family emergency. She took the dog to the another e-vet I've been to (and don't go to anymore) and they did do the c-section and mother and puppies are ok. But they charged her $4000. And people think breeders are making money? Grrrrr..
His bloodwork and other tests were OK. But without the MRI nobody knows forsure.
My friend's dog is not better, and the vet situation is not better either. They wanted a urine sample, but the tech messed it up by not paying attention then lunging at the dog and scaring him when he realized he was peeing, so no sample. But my friend got a sample, took it yesterday morning when they opened. They do lab work in house, said they'd have it in an hour. Now well past 24 hours later, still no lab results. My friend asked, then, for a hard copy of all the work they've done so far--and reiterated her need for the lab results on the urine--and now they are being difficult about giving her a hard copy, which she wants because she's going to take her dog to a third vet, as today he's back to being lethargic and no appetite.
Frustrating in the extreme.
A vet tech getting it would freak Saya out too. I think she'd be fine with me doing it though..
She used to handling by vet and strangers, but someone going under her she wouldn't like it and walk off.
Hope things get better for your friend soon.
I agree not giving record is odd..
My vet gave me Saya's x ray well he emailed it, but it was nice I just asked gave my email and when I got back I had it..
I thought he'd probably be all no you can't, but I'm glad he gave it to me no issue. He's pretty good though.
In the meantime, the urinalysis was done on the GSD finally, but they won't give her the information over the phone for some reason. And they told her only the vet will release her the results of the blood work, and only in person. She's very, very frustrated.
And her dog is not better, nor does she have any idea what is going on with him, other than to know that he did not need the various things they prescribed and she declined (dewormer, something to stop diarrhea which he does not have, etc). And she still has to find a third vet to help her deal with all this, since we still have a week til our regular vet is back in town.
Good for her for apologizing. I do very much appreciate people admitting mistakes. I wish she would not have been so quick to diagnose a dog on the basis of something she knew nothing about, however.
It would have been a good end of the story except for this: when my friend when to pick up her meds, they charged $220 for antibiotics. I would have argued, I'm sure, but my friend just paid and left. However, when she got home, she noticed she had just paid over $200 for expired antibiotics. The vet's office got another call, and she demanded to have some new meds. As soon as she arrived, the vet rushed out and apologized again, but said, "we were sent expired meds." My friend pointed out that she didn't care about that, but she was not going to pay for expired antibiotics (expired by a YEAR, btw). They said they had nothing else, but then came back after a bit with another type. The price this time? $36. So she got the rest of the money refunded.
Yeah, the apology was nice, but the rest of the experience was pretty awful. And my friend is still planning to take the dog to our regular vet when they return, because the bloating in his abdomen is still unexplained.
On one hand, it's good that the vet had the common sense to know when something is off, but on the other hand, the scale is a crucial piece of equipment. Don't skimp on that!