Known Thyroid Issues in Kai?

So again, we (Kaiya and I) have been MIA lately. Trying to get us both acclimated to our new city and vets and day cares and jobs which is VERY time consuming. I was just curious if anyone is aware of any thyroid issues in Kai? Kaiya is getting a blood screen thursday after some disturbing health and behavior issues which could be related to her environment changes (this is my hope) or an underlying health problem.

She has been having diarrhea on a fairly regular basis (4 times in 3.5 months), the last time was accompanied by a doggy smell which is not normal for her and an oily coat. Additionally back at Christmas time, we had a snapping issue with my young nieces. K is typically fine with children and LOVES my friends baby (who is about 14 months), but she snapped at both of my nieces. At the time, I chalked it up to fear on both her end and my nieces (they are TERRIFIED of all animals), and while she got time out, I didnt do anything further about it. I realize I probably should have, but I was really just pissed at my sister at the time because she INSISTED that the girls needed to be at my parents overnight on the night we arrived and they showed up less than an hour after we got there.

All that said, I know there are several Shiba and Akita on the forum that have a history of thyroid issues and while I didnt see anything about Kai, I was curious if anyone knew of any?

Any information I can take to the vet when we get the results would be wonderful! Thank you all!

Comments

  • ...having diarrhea on a fairly regular basis (4 times in 3.5 months)
    re: diarrhea, 4x in 3.5 months doesn't seem out of the ordinary. I was going to say IBD seem to hit shibas as much as thyroid issues, but you didn't mention chronic weight loss so it's probably not that...
  • I guess I should rephrase the diarrhea part. Its been explosive lasting more than one movement 4x in 3.5 months. Prior to this, she had this type of diarrhea only 3 times in the last 2 plus years and they were associated with a parasite which has already been ruled out via two stool samples and 2 colon swabs over a 6 week period.
  • Hmmm? I haven't heard of thyroid problems. But I wouldn't know about imports or their offspring.

    I have to say it doesn't necessarily sound like a thyroid issue as much as new environment issues given the context of the post.
  • It's pretty common in Akita and Shiba, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is showed up in Kai too. That said, the diarrhea isn't typically the a thyroid issue. Coat is the one that could be, though usually they also get a thin coat, esp. on the tail. There are some behavioral changes in some breeds, but it seems like there might be other explanations for her snapping.

    It's an easy to diagnose and easy to treat disorder, though, so you should get answers from the blood test.

    The coat issue could be allergies too.

    Let us know what you find out!
  • edited February 2013
    Definitely look into IBD if there has been no change in diet or environmental changes, and the random diarrhea continues.

    A girlfriend of mine has a girl shiba w/ thyroid issues that took forever to diagnose. She exhibited signs of fear (tremble/shake) and become destructive when left alone as-if she had separation anxiety. Some of the vets put her on tranquilizer type meds that left her drowsy/lame in the back legs. When she was finally correctly diagnosed, she got put on meds that caused weight gain and incontinence, but she was a happy dog again.

  • Thyroid meds shouldn't cause weight gain or incontinence. That's kind of wierd.
  • @shibamistress, if I'm not mistaken, I think it was steroid-based
  • @rikumom - I would double check with your friend on the diagnosis... Low thyroid (hypothyroidism) issues are not treated with steroids, but with replacement hormones. As far as I know, overactive thyroid issues are only common in cats and steroids are also not used to treat hyperthyroidism (an antithyroid drug is used, but I can not recall the name).

    As for the diarrhea, neither of my Shibas exhibted that as a symptom of hypothyroidism. However, Bella did vomit randomly (apparently caused by dilation of the esophagus), which stopped when she was diagnosed and put on levothyroxine.

    I would have the blood panel done, but it is probably (and hopefully) just stress from all of the life changes recently.
  • @sunyata, I'll double check and report back
  • If it's in Shiba and Akita then it's in the other NK breeds - but to what extent, I don't know. We've tested every Kai we've had here, even the ones we don't keep, and never seen a thyroid issue.
  • Update: turns out my friend's dog has two issues. She is on Thyrosin for her thyroid and phenobarbitol for her seizures.
  • Ill keep you all posted. Thanks for the info on your testing @brada1878. Thats really helpful to be able to tell the vet too. I am hoping that its not thyroid, but at the same time, it would be nice to have something physical to treat. Otherwise, we'll have to find a behaviorist.
  • To give you an idea of home many Kai we've tested thyroid on, it's about 15.
  • My Tora was tested and she was normal as well
  • I was going to chime in with what Sunyata said....that is not how hypothyroidism is treated.

    But phenobarbital is also not a steroid. I have given it to my Shiba for years for her seizures. It should not cause diarrhea and it should not cause weight gain, though my girl, who tends to be anorexic at times, has started eating better since she's been on it. She doesn't gain weight, though, because we watch her food. I will say, though, that even dogs that are taking thyrosin for hypo may still not lose the weight that they gain from the low thyroid function. Or at least that has been the case with mine.

    Phenobarbital does have some problems--it can cause liver damage and so needs to be carefully monitored--but it is a pretty good drug overall for controlling seizures, and in our case, it has helped smooth out some behavioral issues our female Shiba has had as well. She is, btw, MUCH less aggressive and unpredicatable now that she's taking pb. But that said, we tried other things first, including xanax and valium, and those both upped her aggression (this is before we knew about the seizures) so it is entirely possible that what lowers aggression in my dog (pb) might not do it in another dog.

    So your friend may be seeing a "symptoms" from a variety of things, rather than just one thing.
  • @shibamistress, as noted above, I confirmed my friend's shiba suffers from at least two issues
  • edited February 2013
    @shibamistress, as noted above, I confirmed my friend's shiba suffers from at least two issues
    Right! I just meant these issues are even a bit odd for what the dog suffers from, and they aren't typical responses to the meds the dog is taking. Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with both hypothyroidism and seizure disorders. :( And who knows--dogs do have different reactions to things like people do.
  • Well blood and urine samples were drawn today. Hopefully we'll have some answers in the early part of next week.
  • Fingers crossed
  • Preliminary results came in earlier this week and her Thyroid (t4) was at 1.4, which according to the vet is nothing to be concerned about, however, in some research I was doing, with her age, her number should be higher...the complete results should be available Monday, so I will keep you posted. Also, would her having some crystals in her urine be normal?
  • edited February 2013
    @brittk - I don't think urinary crystals are normal. The only time I ran into the mention of urinary crystals was when one vet I spoke to and then an unrelated vet nurse were talking about how they saw more and more dogs eating Blue Buffalo (kibble) getting urinary crystals and how it was a food they'd stay away from (so I'm assuming urinary crystals are bad - I know nothing about them though).


    I hope her complete results come back okay! :)
    My boy is hypothyroid, but he's a Malamute. I can try to find the paperwork with his numbers on it. I don't remember it off the top of my head (because I'm an awful mom). He's on soloxine 0.6 to even him out.
  • Preliminary results came in earlier this week and her Thyroid (t4) was at 1.4, which according to the vet is nothing to be concerned about, however, in some research I was doing, with her age, her number should be higher...the complete results should be available Monday, so I will keep you posted. Also, would her having some crystals in her urine be normal?
    I don't think that's normal, myself. My vet would treat at that level, because as they have pointed out, with that number, it may well be dipping even lower. We're treating two of my dogs that came out around that number, and they do much better with the soloxine.

  • Crystals can form in urine that is left sitting out too long, FYI
  • a T4 level of 1.4 should be treated, IMO. That is what is considered low-normal, and many dogs (especially Shibas, and I would assume Kai as well) show symptoms at that level. Bella was lightly lower than that at 1.2 and she was treated (still is being treated) and there have been amazing results in her temperament and weight. Nola is being treated at 1.4 as well, and it has helped out with many other issues that she is having, plus it seems to help keep her immune system from completely bottoming out.

    So, I would say if she seems to be exhibiting symptoms, treat and see what happens. My vet usually likes to do a 90-day trial and then recheck to make sure the levels are where they should be and have not swung into hyperthyroidism.
  • edited February 2013
    This is where many vets disagree, although Casey has seemingly clear evidence it has helped to change up.

    To tack on to the above...One thing to keep in mind that levels can fluctuate naturally from time to time on an individual so it's important to look at the average reference range over time on a particular animal. If there are lab results over several years that will be helpful in gauging seemingly healthy dogs that are newly exhibiting quirky symptoms. Also what is the norm for one animal may not be for another within the given lab reference ranges or when symptoms actually appear.

    Furthermore, each lab may have a differing acceptable reference ranges. For example ref of 1.0 - 4.0 while another may have 0.8 - 3.5 as a ref. So it's really important to discuss the results their vet and compare over time if one has the ability to do so, particularly to prevent one's vet scoffing at concerns.

    Diet really can play a part in differing values IMO. According to Dodds and Laverdure (2011), an import of aspect of feeding raw is realizing that normal values for some of the standard diagnostic lab tests do not apply to animals on a raw diets. Laboratories have developed their normal ranges based on dogs that are fed cereal grain foods (p. 81).

    My shiba at one point was at ref. range 1.3 (considered "normal") and that year she had a mild seizure as a one and only suspect symptom. The values have since gone back up on their own, I believe due to diet change. It's hard to say for sure, but so far so good and we continue to monitor. It's been three yrs without issue, knock on wood. We are at 1.7 and 1.8 T4 (close to her original range when younger) and doing great thus far.

    Snf

    Ref: Dodds, J. & Laverdure, D.R. (2011) The canine Thyroid Epidemic. Dogwise Publishing.
  • edited February 2013
    @ brittk: how many crystals in the count and type? That is the question. Again diet can change that up.

    As far as Kai that remains to be seen what the averages would be. I can not imagine it would be that much different. I surely hope that many of us will test and supply some info to help all of us out as we go along.

    Snf
  • All thank you for all the valuable information. The base line that I was given was 0.8-4.5 and she was a 1.4. Kaiya is on a raw diet with occasional grain free kibble (roughly once a week). While this is the first T4 that has been done (as far as I know) I plan to get her tested at least yearly moving forward, but maybe in 6 months as well. I also do not have the results on paper yet, which I will hopefully have soon so that I can show to our other vet from before we moved as well for her advice.

    I will be calling the vet again this week and will ask the question about the count and type of crystals. The sample was VERY fresh when it went in. (like collected just before we got in the car for the 10 minute ride fresh).

    Thanks again all! If anyone has any other advice or things I need to ask, please feel free to chime in :)

  • Yeah, you really need to ask for the reference range (and measurement units) when it comes to labwork like that. Also echoing Snf, T4 is not considered a reliable measure of thyroid function because it's more susceptible to fluctuation -- free T4 is really where it's at, and your vet should have expanded the thyroid panel to include that if you had raised thyroids as a concern at all. Boo on them if they didn't.

    I remember the first time we had Bowdu's thyroids tested by the vet who never even considered that thyroids could have been issue, and was in fact pretty resistant to getting his thyroids tested in the first place... Well, the results came back and he told me Bowdu was "borderline." The results we had for him from Antech (VCA labs) were as follows:
    T4
    Results: 0.6 (LOW)
    Reference Range: 1.0 – 4.0
    Units: ug/dL

    FREE T4 (Equilibrium Dialysis)
    Results: 9.0
    Reference Range 8 – 40
    Units: PMOL/L
    And from Hemopet (Dr. Dodds' labs):
    T4: 0.87 (reference range 0.80 ~ 3.80 μg/dL)
    Free T4: 0.53 (reference range 0.55 ~ 2.32 ng/dL)
    T3: < 10, verified by repeat analysis (reference range 30 ~ 70 ng/dL)
    Free T3: 1.9 (reference range 1.6 ~ 3.5 pg/mL)
    Thyroglobulin Antibodies: <1%

    Adult optimal levels:
    T4: 1.40 ~ 3.50 μg/dL
    FT4: 0.85 ~ 2.30 ng/dL
    T3: 35 ~ 70 ng/dL
    FT3: 1.6 ~ 3.5 pg/mL</blockquote>

    Bowdu is a Shiba. I bring up those numbers not to say that they apply the same way to Kai Ken, but to show that what one vet would interpret as "borderline" without showing me the full results until I asked for them is actually, upon further examination, clearly too low.
  • Got the full analysis today. I asked for a T3 and t$ and Free T4, but looks like I didnt get the T3 (unless it is officially called something else.

    T4 1.3 (0.8-3.5)
    Free T4 (dialysis) 20 (8-40)
Sign In or Register to comment.