Hunting insight into hunting predators and other non-herbivore species?
So, something I've been pondering for a while is why people go out to hunt apex predators. Ecologically it doesn't make sound sense to be picking off what amounts to being the custodians of their environments. One example would be killing wolves which manage not only deer and wild pigs, but also invasive/pest species (such as feral cats) that prey upon the young of native species.
Firstly, I've hunted small game such as squirrels and frogs. I also spearfish and fish saltwater regularly. So I'm by no means coming at this from a PETA standpoints lol. I'm all for hunting deer and herd animals since one animal produces a huge amount of meat. The pelts can also be used as material and offal/bones/ligaments make great treats for the dogs. Thinning out boar also means that plant-based native food sources aren't being stripped.
What I'm not seeing, in terms of efficient use and management of resources, is the benefit of hunting coyotes, wolves, bears, and mountain lions. To me at least, it seems rather destructive to be hunting animals that live in small numbers over large expanses of territory vs animals that have significant population density. Coyotes and bobcats play a large part in feral cat, rat, and other pest species management. Mountain lions and wolves thin the weak/slow/unhealthy of herd animals and ensure the populations don't exceed what the fauna of an area can handle by the natural fluctuations of prey to predator ratios (which will also flow in reverse, predators dropping in number when there are too few prey animals to support the population).
Also, unless people do it, I also don't see the appeal to eat large cat meat or canid meat. They're just too close to our dogs and house cats to make me enthused about eating it.
So it seems that the main drive for hunting these species is solely to have a pelt on the wall or check a species off the list. From what I understand, a large part of being a responsible outdoorsman is to use what is harvested from nature. I'm just not seeing a lot of useage out of taking a predator.
For the members that do support or engage in predator hunting could you give your insight into this topic? I know this is a very touchy/personal subject. This is my first time asking about this on any forum or to any person. I think here on NK there is a very good dialogue and good-posting, so I figured this would be the best place to post about the topic
Firstly, I've hunted small game such as squirrels and frogs. I also spearfish and fish saltwater regularly. So I'm by no means coming at this from a PETA standpoints lol. I'm all for hunting deer and herd animals since one animal produces a huge amount of meat. The pelts can also be used as material and offal/bones/ligaments make great treats for the dogs. Thinning out boar also means that plant-based native food sources aren't being stripped.
What I'm not seeing, in terms of efficient use and management of resources, is the benefit of hunting coyotes, wolves, bears, and mountain lions. To me at least, it seems rather destructive to be hunting animals that live in small numbers over large expanses of territory vs animals that have significant population density. Coyotes and bobcats play a large part in feral cat, rat, and other pest species management. Mountain lions and wolves thin the weak/slow/unhealthy of herd animals and ensure the populations don't exceed what the fauna of an area can handle by the natural fluctuations of prey to predator ratios (which will also flow in reverse, predators dropping in number when there are too few prey animals to support the population).
Also, unless people do it, I also don't see the appeal to eat large cat meat or canid meat. They're just too close to our dogs and house cats to make me enthused about eating it.
So it seems that the main drive for hunting these species is solely to have a pelt on the wall or check a species off the list. From what I understand, a large part of being a responsible outdoorsman is to use what is harvested from nature. I'm just not seeing a lot of useage out of taking a predator.
For the members that do support or engage in predator hunting could you give your insight into this topic? I know this is a very touchy/personal subject. This is my first time asking about this on any forum or to any person. I think here on NK there is a very good dialogue and good-posting, so I figured this would be the best place to post about the topic
Comments
In Alaska, Game and Fish is very clear on the purpose of predator control: kill the wolves because they kill moose that people want to hunt. Even though science has not backed up some of their ideas--it was found out a long time ago that in fact grizzlies in Alaska kill a many young moose, no one was calling for predator control of grizzlies (most likely because they are also trophy animals, whereas wolves are not, and the board of Fish and Game was mostly hunters who primary purpose was to cater to the hunting lobby, esp. the "bring in the money" out of state big game hunters). In Alaska, even a lot of hunters I otherwise respected got on the bandwagon of "kill all the wolves" so there are more moose (and yes, in alaska there were many, many people suggesting exactly that). It makes no sense, but that was the way it was played.
There are many people still in the west in particular that want very heavy predator control so that there are more game animals to hunt, or to protect livestock. In my mind, yes, there may be times that we need some hunting of predators--but I feel that the regular hunting permits that out there for predators are sufficient--we don't need to be shooting wolves from airplanes or helicopters (Alaska).
I don't know why people want to hunt the predators themselves, though some things I can see: wolf and coyote pelts are very nice and useful (wolf and coyote fur do not frost over like some other types of fur, so are useful for parka ruffs in really cold places like Alaska). People do eat bears. I suppose some hunters really want the challenge of the big predators?
We do need SOME hunting of predators, especially coyotes. Without some hunting, they can and will get overpopulated. This is very, very clear in the coyote population in the US. In the lower 48, there aren't enough wolves to justify hunting them. But I think the reasons this gets so polarized so fast is that people take the most extreme positions: no hunting ever (or at least no hunting of predators), or get rid of all the predators are the points people play up. There is also a strong contingency of people who still believe that humans have dominion over all the animals, and therefore the desire to hunt takes precedence over a wild animal's need to hunt to survive: human desire to kill a moose is more important than the survival of wolves, for example.
Overall, I think sound management is just a difficult issue, when there are so many different sides clamoring for mutually exclusive positions. Unfortunately, most of the time, it is not sound management principles that win.
California banned lion hunting in the 80s because voters were told that they were endangered of becoming extinct (no real lion studies conducted in Ca until the 90s). So with thin the last 20 years lions have massed their numbers. Since the rise of the lion population, ca deer numbers has fallen over 50% and human/lion issues nearly quadrupled. In my county, the pacific desert big horn numbers are being plummeted because of lion predation.
Another example would be Yellowstone. Before wolves were reintroduced, Yellowstone had a high density of elk, deer, and bison. Since the intro of wolves, Yellowstone lost a quarter of their free ranging bison and elk. Deer population is at its lowest.
The notion that predators will keep a echo system mismanaged by humans is detremental. Predators do what they do best, kill a prey the best way possible to survive. When you have a park that is unchecked and uncontrolled for so many years, reintroduce a apex predator and hope the predators will watch boundaries and kill only the sick and old is wrong.
At some point there has to be a way to also control the number of predators within a given habitat as we do hoofed animals. Because this conservation system is not in place, you end up with unbalanced numbers of predator to prey ratio. When a predator no longer has available food sources in its habitat where does it go? Some where else where there's food. If that new area already has a apex predator, the new addition just added a uneven load to the prey of that habitat.
Unfortunately, humans have dipped their hands in the balance of predator and prey so at some point wether its pretty or not something has to be done about predators.
A dog would easily find it tasty and could get hurt. At least with a human hunting the animal they pick and choose to kill a poison or kill trap doesn't..
I do think farmers should give live stock guardian dogs a try. I mean a couple good ones should deter wolves and coyotes and even roaming dogs from hurting their live stock.
Sad so many are now just pets and not used for their intended purpose..
Heck a Great pyrenees I'm not impressed with it one came wandering in my yard we called it's owner she walks from their farm and said they were repairing their chicken coup and he is afraid of drills..
Some guardian he is afraid of noise like that!
Coarse who knows maybe that was only thing he was afraid of..
I know this one farm is using kangal dogs to protect their livestock from cheetahs it's a win win as farmers live stock live and the cheetahs are deterred from the livestock and go for something with out a dog to protect it..
People do eat bear.
Coyotes I dunno.
One person on dogster feeds bear and plans to feed coyote to their dog.
I'm for using up an animal, but feeding a coyote to a dog just doesn't seem right.
If someone offered me bear meat I would cook it or make dehydrated dog treats, but not fed raw. I think they have trichinosis? Could be wrong.
I wouldn't mind cooking bear to try..
There is recipes for opossums so I guess depends where you live.
I remember watching some Alaskan show and the guy had shoot a wolf that was getting close to town. He got it's pelt and put it's body in the woods. so the meat wasn't used.
I'm not for aerial hunting of wolves as it seems so unfair to do that.
Things like cougars can be an issue as some places they have less land and eventually will cause issues with humans and deer.
I'm for hunting right way, but poison seems harsh..
I'm lucky so far has had no issues with coyotes. I do think my neighbor will loose their dachund someday as they leave it on tie out for outside time and to potty. I hear it whining and crying at night sometimes which is sad. The dog shouldn't be alone especially such a small dog.
I bring a knife with me in case on hikes luckily animals run heck away even coyotes.. The dogs have bells on so they kinda warn things before we get close.
Though bunnies are dumb they tend to stay in the trail till last minute then run to the high grass.
I mean if coyote is rabid acting or acting bold sure I'll deal with it, but so far they keep wide distance from me. Ones in city seems more bolder luckily I don't live in city right now..
Sad California doesn't allow use of dogs on cougars and bear anymore..
I mean if it did get away somehow at least then it has a new fear of humans and dogs.
That's why when they do bear releases they try to haze them so they get more weary of humans..
When I do see a coyote I do yell at it even if it's at a distance and running away from my presence I figure that help it be more afraid hearing me yell at it.
I'm always cautious when taking dogs out to potty at night with flashlight. Did see two coyotes once I was at the house and they were at the trail on the burn pile side very far from me. They stood there for a bit then ran off in other direction.
Dad had to kill a raccoon once as it was acting way too brazen coming to the door, back upper deck and stuff didn't run off despite Saya barking at it from the door.
Saya has treed juvenile raccoon that was eating my pears.. After she did it the second time they stopped coming though they could have learned lesson and came at night to eat the pears.
The juvenile raccoons were killed week later not sure of what, but whatever it was it ate it all was left was head, fur and stomach. Gross.
Someone has said coyotes don't kill raccoons, but juvenile ones maybe they weren't too big.
I'm not a hunter mainly fish and stuff. I have gotten a few books to read on such subject haven't gotten chance to read it as I'm finishing up current books before digging into this.
There is a need for some predator management especially in urban areas where said animals become very bold and brazen.
In Taos the black bear encroachment was getting very bad, and bear were starting to habituate and even prey on humans. But, I still didn't feel we should be hunting them. That is actually why I got into Laika, I was working with the town to start a bear shepherding program and had planned to use my Laiki for this. But then we moved.
Now that I live here I have been more active with the local Fish and Game and have been communicating with them. I was informed that catamounts are a big issues here, as are black bear, but not for the reason they are an issue in Cali or Taos. Due to the grand canyon Flagstaff is basically a sky island. Our Elk and Deer population is sealed off from the rest of the Colorado Plateau so AZ F&G has to be extra sensitive to their population levels. This is why big cats and black bear need to be controlled in numbers here, as without doing that the deer and elk population would shrink and the predators would then start to prey on nontraditional prey (like us).
The warden I talked to last week told me that an adult mountain lion kills 1 deer a day. He basically asked me to start hunting lion in our area since there are so few hunters who do that.
So, my opinion has changed on this topic. However, if I'm to be honest, I do not really see the need for killing Wolves and Coyote. I just do not see them to be as big of an issue as they are made out to be by the ranchers and hunters who hunt them. I know ranchers are losing money due to the reintroduction of the wolf, but there are other methods - that have existed for 1000s of years - to control livestock loss from wolves. To me, I think the ranchers just got too comfortable not having to deal with any predatory threats, and now that they have the threat again, they want to stir up all kinds of drama.
I also agree with @ayk on her point. It's important that predators keep their naturally imprinted fear of humans. In Taos, for example, it was not legal to hunt big cat, and so a person dies every year in Taos because the big cats are not afraid of us.
Human habitation is continuously spreading, encroaching on wildlife and causing greater interactions between humans and wildlife. A lot of these animals have adapted to living in a human environment, which is a plentiful source of food whether it be willing handouts (bird feeders) or the garbage left on the curb. Needless to say, this easy source of food allows for the predators to survive and reproduce more readily than if humans weren't around.
Needless to say, I do wish that people wouldn't use hunting as their first response to an unwanted predator. Wolves used to be everywhere, if people didn't just decide to eradicate them through massive hunting and used means to coexist, there wouldn't be so much head butting between the ranchers and the people who are trying to save the wolf species. Wolves would have had generations to learn to fear livestock and humans, as well as them being a fact of life instead of a nuisance.
I'm not a predator hunter as I'm only interested in hunting for meat. That's why I prefer to hunt boar as opposed to squirrel for instance (more meat > less meat), and I'm not that interested in eating apex predators for sure. But here in Japan we don't have predator issues, other than Hokkaido where they do need to manage the Brown Bears from time to time due to them habituating too close to humans, so this is probably why predator hunting is not even on my radar.
I think to have balanced management of an environment close to human settlement, there may be times where a thinning of the predator population is necessary. As mentioned earlier, it also helps to instill a healthy fear of dogs/humans in the remaining animals. Hopefully though, sane heads prevail and management programs are based on sound science and not leaning toward either end of the spectrum.
You missed the second half of the circle, where once the prey runs low the predator population cannot be sustained and will starve out. That would go into effect without human interference and human interests however. It's the natural flow of things and the system by which ecosystems balance themselves out.
It also wouldn't be "laughable" if you've ever taken any courses on environmental sciences. If you think wolves and sharks will gorge themselves until there is nothing left and everything will go extinct then we wouldn't have such a variety of wildlife now would we?
A system with zero predators for any length of time is of course going to have to go through some population ebbs and flows before rebalancing itself. That's a very unique situation that is not very comparable to other areas such as most of the Pacific Northwest regions. Very similar to which invasive species are introduced to an environment (like constrictors in the Everglades) which then have no natural competition, therefore they are highly destructive.
Your reasoning for hunting them is sound from what you describe of your personal excursions. Culling overpopulation of predators in unique environments that have been so affected by humans that they cannot balance themselves is a reasonable thing to do. I may have had to specify hunting apex predators in wilderness environments that are not undergoing over-predation on a conservation level in order to get the perspective I'm questioning. That which is going out to, lets say Alaska where the ecosystem is managing itself just fine, and actively hunt Grizzly or wolves for no management reasons, just for the sake of it.
@brada1878 That's actually really interesting! I never knew Flagstaff was so environmentally cut off. That's a responsible method of predator hunting as well, so I would engage in that if the local prey populations are threatened due to being so cut off from other populations for interbreeding.
I also agree on the wolf issues with ranchers. It has always seemed like an issue of destructive convenience, where a few bullets cost less than good safety measures. The only reason they lose "part of their livelihood" is because they don't have dogs and reasonable deterrences.
@Jindohoundman The world needs less chihuahuas and puggles anyways! :P That's pretty crazy and I've heard of that. I forget who it was but it was some celebrity out walking her little white chihuahua around Arizona or New Mexico, when all of a sudden a coyote runs out of a bush and tries to make off with her chihuahua LOL. Many years of vet tech work has instilled a dislike of small, yappy things haha.
http://dovsherman.deviantart.com/art/Wa-Tor-An-Ecosimulation-25692206
Start of with a map as big as you want, within reason, max out the prey, and add 2 predators. You'll see the fluctuations are massive until it balances back out. Of course, this would be without human intervention on either the prey or predator side, seeing as how prey animals generally reproduce on a faster level than predators. Of course this can be adjusted to relatives of specific populations and it also isn't perfect. But the math on it all averages out that in an unaltered environment if there is a massive excess of prey then the predator population will explode until it reaches a point that is unsustainable. Prey of adequate size will be very hard to find and scavenging sub-optimal prey will only last so long, eventually resulting in the predator population starving out to a sustainable level.
Edit: It took 625'ish cycles for populations to reach an equilibrium only to restart the cycles of extremes again around 1000'ish cycles. Around 1350 there was a hard reset where the predator population was down to a single group and then two where it completely restarted.
As an aside... the points of extreme fluctuation would be where those with more advantageous characteristics would reproduce while those with less advantageous characteristics would die off. (SCIENCE!)
I wish it was that easy to harvest a brown bear or a Wolfe in Alaska. Alaska has some of the best wildlife biology in the world. I'm under the assumption that some might think you can hunt these animals with just a license. It's much more cost involved. In North America when you hunt big game, most all states including Alaska requires you to purchase specific tags for specific animals. The conservation department sets a quota on how many animals can be taken and sets a limited number of tags for each animal. The work of the biologists is to do animal counts (I have personally taken part in animal counts) so that they can set the tag count.
This method of wildlife conservation has been copied around the world in managing wildlife. Because of this method MANY animals have recovered from near extinction (wild turkey, pronghorn, grizzly bears, wolves, etc). Unfortunately it's not a perfect world where the preservationist mentality can be used due to human encroachment and environmental changes.
Didn't mean to come off like a jackass, hunting is a subject I have a lot of passion for and something that is part of my livelihood. It's also a very deep subject and many people have different views.
You do bring up the reasoning for my primary post though. If I had to boil it down then it could be summarized as "Just because they say it's ok to take 50 grizzlies per year, because that's what's sustainable, why do it if it's not resource efficient?". That's mainly what I was getting at.
You didn't come off as a jackass. I just read the "laughable" part part as unnecessary that's all
For wildlife conservation and take the NA big bears for example, the number to take is most often set with how many of a certain specie a specific environment can handle. So biologists also take into consideration how much food is available for each specific specie and figure out how many of one animal the given area can sustain.
Think about it, if within a 5 mile radius only two or three grizzlies can be sustained, wouldn't it be better to take the excess animal (as long as there is a healthy population or over abundance) instead of starving it? Taking by generating revenue from that one grizzly to put back into research towards the overall grizzly population. That in my book is smart sound management.
I hunt just about everything that is legal to hunt but my specialty is turkey, waterfowl, deer, boar, predator.
I hunt hogs with my Kishu kens and also bowhunt. Not sure where you're located but if you are near San Diego, you are always welcome to hunt where I hunt. There nothing like putting meat in the freezer that you harvested your self. And it's much more healthier.
I don't see the point of hunting wolves in the lower 48 at all, and that includes Yellowstone, and certainly here in NM. As for coyotes, well, they are certainly legal to hunt, and I'm fine with that. Like Ayk and Brad, I'm concerned about predators that are not afraid of humans, and coyotes are not here at all.
And don't fool yourself. They're not just getting little dogs. My (35 pound) Shiba was attacked by coyotes in the yard. A coyote has strolled right up to me walking my big fat Shiba too, and then finally decided to lope away at the last minute. My vet had a case a couple of years ago where people who live near me saw coyotes attack their lab-and the coyotes did run when the people came out. The lab died.
There are about 300,000 coyotes in NM (I was astounded when I saw that number!) I suspect we can do with a few less, though I still always believe animals should be hunted and killed in the most humane ways, so I'm not in favor of poisoning and am dubious about trapping (even though I grew up in Alaska where it is still common). And I don't like the hunters that go after coyotes with dogs and then let the dogs rip the coyotes apart. Shoot them and make it quick.
(And I should say I'm in what is considered a kind of rural suburb of ABQ--in the mountains, but less than 20 mins away from the city)
I've seen comments on dogster and really I'm about done messing on that forum it's annoying with the people who think they know it all.
Comments I seen were like we have farmer's, butchers and grocery stores there is no reason to hunt besides for sport.. My jaw drops when I see comments like that..
I mean go buy a wild Alaskan salmon and a farmed salmon grill same way same seasoning and tell me which taste better!
Compared to farmed salmon Alaskan salmon taste like gold.
Pricey, but worth it for once in while treat. We got a big thing of it fed me and my mom for two days for dinner.. Saya and Bella each got tiny bit of unseasoned cooked salmon for training treat they each got 1oz.
I've tasted deer, Canadian goose, duck, and dove yummy I think I prefer dove over the other two birds.
I've even had grass fed beef it wasn't the highest grade of steaks I forgot it was kinda in the middle of steaks it tasted great like one from fancy restaurant had good flavor with minimal seasoning.
I get grass fed beef tongue for Saya and it looks much more appetizing than the beef tongue at walmart..
Yeah some hunt for sport and stuff, but some do it to feed their family and friends.. My brother gets deer from his wife's cousin's they all share.
I watch yukon man it's interesting show they were hunting moose to get meat to last them for the winter.. The wife or daughter I was half asleep so I forgot. Anyways she says they once saw a moose carcass in the water that had it's rack or whatever taken off. Sad someone would discard so much meat like that.
One thing to point out this country has changed so darn much compared to the old days bison used to be in more areas, and many other animals. Roads have caused a lot of issues for animals coyotes, deer, raccoons and so on.. I see dead coyotes on road from being hit, or deer and usual road kill. Sad..
I try not to drive out at night because danger of deer my mom hit one she wasn't going fast luckily so the deer just got grazed and it ran off mom watched and it seemed alright.
When I'm out at night I think to my self no wonder cars hit deer there is so many cars going by a deer or herd of deer has barely any chance of crossing the road safely.
The cars just keep going..
I'm sure our highways, and roads have messed up deer migration a lot.
I also have been seeing a lot of farm land for sale and some got bought out guess what they put in. cookie cutter houses.. I call them that as the houses are not well made and some look the same and so on.
We had some high winds once and bit of siding came off.
We don't need any more houses when there still many for sale.. ah well.
we keep tearing down fields, farm land, and woods guess what coyotes and deer will have no choice, but to move in.. I seen deer in town before.
Like shibamistress said coyotes aren't going to only go for chihuahuas, Pomeranian and dachshunds there been issues with rotties, labs and other big breeds.
Shiba inu isn't that big of a dog..
Ones in my area seem less brazen as I'm more in country where there is less people feeding stray cats and we keep trash cans secure.
I don't think a coyote won't hurt my dogs I'm sure if they feel threatened or are hungry they will try go for my dogs.
Most local Indiana coyote attacks seem happen when owner lets their dog out at night alone in a unfenced yard. That is a recipe for disaster and the owner should never leave a small or big dog alone like that especially when they live by the woods and in town even.
I remember Brada's neighbor in their previous home their lab was in trouble coyotes were going for her.
Coyotes aren't only out at night too I seen them during the day. Usually in the field or deep in the woods by the creek.
I do think some people need stop habituating coyotes stop feeding feral cats if they're feral the cats will hunt for themselves.. be more humane if the people would catch the cats and get them fixed. I caught one and turned into the shelter it was intact and a intact cat breeds like rabbits.
I seen a mom cat she had litter of kittens where I worked and she caught rabbits and rock pigeons to feed the kittens.. some workers started to feed them kibble. I'm like why do that they're taking care of the pigeons since everyone hates those flying rats..
Sorry go bit off topic.
I don't really know right answer, but like I said world is changing so much it is sad.
I do wish people would take more interest in nature at times my cousin's are scared of even a box turtle.
As a side note, real predators don't do that. A bear kills the best way it can, and doesn't care about having a little sport with its meal.
I know that there are accounts of Polar Bear and Brown Bear, as well as Tigers, playing with their prey too, but I cannot not find video of it...
Coyote, Wolf, and big cat usually consume their prey while still alive - whereas humans kill our prey long before we consume it.
So which is more stressful, being stalked by a dog and then knifed or shot, or being stalked by a Coyote or Wolf and then being eaten while still alive?
One of the things I have not liked about the aerial hunts in Alaska is that they have harassed the animals from the air for a long time before they shoot them (I suspect they need to tire them so they can get a good shot). I have issues with that, but then again, I'm not in favor of aerial hunting, in general.
and @cezieg...yes, most modern age hunting as we think of it is not need based, but even in the US there are places people still hunt for subsistence. Native people in Alaska and Canada of course, but I suspect other places. And of course, world wide, there are still plenty of subsistance hunters. I know you're talking about in general in north america, but I wanted to add that.
@cezeig I didn't say there was a need to hunt (not even going to get into it) but yes there is a need to kill. My point is that in the same breath saying things should be sporting/"fair" (eg. handicapping the hunter) and humane (eg. killing efficiently) is difficult for me to reconcile.
Wolf killing male coyote..
This reminds me of packs of dogs on coyotes..
I saw this one time it aired I think it was frozen planet or something like that.
Two wolves vs a bison and sadly the wolf gets beaten up very badly. I forgot how it played out haven't seen the whole thing in long time.
Saya has killed 9 rabbits two were older juveniles who were smaller then adults, but I could tell they were young still.
Rest where young in nest, but they could run some, but coarse no match for a dog.
I was around the area when it happened and when she did it she didn't play she grabbed shook hard and killed them pretty quickly. I didn't think a rabbit would build nest right next to house where there is human and dog smells.. I looked it up and sure enough they do that.. I learned my lesson.
I noticed there were few blood on some, but I think the shaking what got them.
She has chased adults, but they're pretty fast.
I did not like way my black cat killed her prey.. She would paw at the baby bunny, let it walk away some pick it up drop it and so on.. I guess that was good as it gave me time to stop her and the rabbit was still alive and ran to the woods.
Fig was a good hunter though she would bring mice, voles, rabbits, birds, and even moles.. I wish she would just hunt moles and mice not rabbits..
Coarse she wouldn't eat her kill which is one reason I'm not fan of outdoor cats.
Going to kill something at least eat it.
I froze Saya's rabbits and have fed her them and she enjoys them a lot. I'm lucky she lets me take them and she doesn't try to gulp them down.