Haha yeah great name isn't it ! His sister cream is named Kooki ^^ I wish to see how they'll grow up, they have to be placed only as family pet, but it seem there are peoples who dont accept the fact that cream Kaï was borned....
When you have two dogs which are carriers, 50% of the puppies will be carriers and continue to pass it to the next generation. But 25% of the offspring will be clear! So if there is an awesome stop-the-presses breeding someone wants to do and has done everything else right, I wouldn't fault them just for breeding two dogs which carry a purely aesthetic flaw. But they absolutely should DNA test the offspring and keep only a clear pup as the breeding dog for the next generation. In fact they should always test if they suspect either of the parents are carriers, even if bred to a clear dog, so the gene can be weeded out. We have the science and technology to do this, breeders should use the tools available to them to improve their breed. Just my two cents.
I think so too, we have to test the dogs to know... But can't we forgive a mistake? Certainly, we can't encourage to breed two dogs who carry cream... And we can't use cream Kaï to breed. But... it's only a color...
One mistake do condemn those breeders?
I don't understand that. They have do a great job with dogs ! They are mentaly very great, well sociabilised...
Would creams be more popular with hunters? Easier to see/identify and all the Kai personality and ability.
I know it's against the standard and shouldn't be selected for, but is there any other reason to actively cull a color not linked to genetic defects? I'm just curious how a breeder (or anyone!) might answer.
For example, the Kishu is a dog where the majority of the populatio is white. In Japan, there does not appear to be any stigma surrounding colored dogs. In the AKC, however, only white dogs may be selected for. While I know the Kai and Kishu are not in the dire situation the Shikoku seems to be in, if they WERE (or worse), should these 'off colored' dogs still be removed from the breeding population to go along with the traditional standard?
I don't rank it as a mistake, but rather the roll of the dice. Producing a cream by and in itself shouldn't be hurting the breeder's reputation.
It's the other stuff, such as how they respond to producing a cream, that is more important.
ie.
Will they ignore/distort the Japanese standard or will they admit that it is a color fault?
Will they market pups as "rare", or educate puppy buyers properly that these just color faults?
Will they breed the parent dogs with the intention of reproducing the cream, or will they breed the parent dogs with the eye towards lessening the chances of producing cream?
@Crispy - My understanding is that the AKC foundation stock for Kishu were all white and so it was impossible to produced colored Kishu at all. There was no selection against colored Kishu. My understanding is that Nami in San Diego is the first colored Kishu in the US?
The AKC-FSS standard for the Kishu is linked to the FCI standard. The intro to the FCI standard does imply that only whites are found, but further down, it allows white, red, and sesame.
Would creams be more popular with hunters? Easier to see/identify and all the Kai personality and ability.
I know it's against the standard and shouldn't be selected for, but is there any other reason to actively cull a color not linked to genetic defects? I'm just curious how a breeder (or anyone!) might answer.
Much discussion of this has been done about the shiba, since cream does pop up in that breed. The understanding is is that by breeding cream shibas you risk diluting and weakening the other colors. Plus, they probably don't want the other breeds to follow the way of the Kishu, who used to be a colored dog but is now mostly white.
@ayk - Oh, yes, I know that... but I got the feeling from the American-bred Kishu (outside of Gen) that yushoku/colored was not desirable and should not be bred when I was going to get a pup from Texas.
Unrelated, I thought I read (somewhere - I may be mistaken!) that Nami was the second colored Kishu in the US.
I didn't realize that the AKC-FSS was linked to FCI though! That's interesting. I'll keep that in mind. I'll be honest - I'm still interested in one of Nami's pups if @shishiinu breeds again.
@Calia - I know cream can "dilute" the tan coloration and I would never think breeding creams - for the stated reason(s) - or breeding for creams should be a goal with any healthy population.
Why on earth people breed dogs whose background they don't know?! Onyx is out of Rocky who has produced creams twice and the dam has Daiichi (who is very dark cream) on her pedigree. And dam has also the long coat gene... For me this is only seems breeding the quantity not quality. Were parents even health checked?
I feel like i read somewhere that one reason why cream in undesirable in most nk is cause it blurs the line a bit with kishu.i don't know if it's true and it wasn't in the japanese dog book, but i know i read that somewhere.
There is one other colored Kishu in America, who I think came here from Canada when she was rehomed to her current owner. Her previous owners, I believe, got her while in the military stationed in Japan.
Nami is the first colored Kishu imported from Japan to the US (not North America).
In Japan there is nothing wrong with breeding colored Kishu, and you can show them in NIPPO events as well. However there is slight preference toward the white Kishu since the standard is based off of it.
Colored Kishu Ken are *not* analogous to (of?) cream Kai Ken. With the colored Kishu, they can be registered with NIPPO and entered in shows. With cream Kai Ken that cannot be registered with either NIPPO or KKA and cannot be shown.
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WRT producing cream or long coat Kai Ken... I wouldn't go out of my way to produce them, and I probably wouldn't repeat the mating that produced them either, but I also wouldn't cull the sire or dam from my program just because they produced long coat or cream.
I can think of much worse things one can produce than a long coat or cream/white colored Kai Ken. Ya know?
What's interesting is that long coat and cream coats pop up in shibas, and the breeders will do what Brad said by not repeating a breeding. They still breed the parents and take extra precautions to not breed to faulty coat carriers, and if you look those faulty coats rarely pop up.
To cull the parents from a breeding program because they produce faulty coats will just further narrow the gene pool. A better thing to do is to breed a carrier to a dog from non-carrier lines, that will only give a 25% chance of each pup being carriers. The odds of getting a carrier are significantly reduced, and you don't get the drawback of narrowing the gene pool.
I agree with Brad. You can't narrow an already narrow gene pool too much. Once you know the dog is a carrier, you make more careful selections in who you breed to going forward.
Yeah and breeding US lines together (I mean breeding two US imports) isn't helping Kais gene pool in Europe. Of course you also have to do the healt test to your dogs before the breeding so you don't put together two dogs who might have the same health issue.
Comments
Here in France, we dont have any past about cream Kaï... some people tells us that they all becomes red... but? Is it right for all cream kaï?
It is a male and a female, 3 month now and the two are very friendly ^^ (the male search for his familly... I hope he find one soon !)
Do you have pictures of grow up cream Kaï?
Somewhere on the forum I believe I posted pictures of white Kai a few years ago.
I will continue to search for the pictures you posted ! Thanks !
Thanks cdenney for the link !
This site has a couple pictures of adult.
Are the cream kai pups born in France?
Brego_mellon_nin: Yes, they are french. Here is Mochi, the male:
I think so too, we have to test the dogs to know... But can't we forgive a mistake?
Certainly, we can't encourage to breed two dogs who carry cream... And we can't use cream Kaï to breed. But... it's only a color...
One mistake do condemn those breeders?
I don't understand that. They have do a great job with dogs ! They are mentaly very great, well sociabilised...
I know it's against the standard and shouldn't be selected for, but is there any other reason to actively cull a color not linked to genetic defects? I'm just curious how a breeder (or anyone!) might answer.
For example, the Kishu is a dog where the majority of the populatio is white. In Japan, there does not appear to be any stigma surrounding colored dogs. In the AKC, however, only white dogs may be selected for. While I know the Kai and Kishu are not in the dire situation the Shikoku seems to be in, if they WERE (or worse), should these 'off colored' dogs still be removed from the breeding population to go along with the traditional standard?
It's the other stuff, such as how they respond to producing a cream, that is more important.
ie.
Will they ignore/distort the Japanese standard or will they admit that it is a color fault?
Will they market pups as "rare", or educate puppy buyers properly that these just color faults?
Will they breed the parent dogs with the intention of reproducing the cream, or will they breed the parent dogs with the eye towards lessening the chances of producing cream?
(as usual!)
The AKC-FSS standard for the Kishu is linked to the FCI standard. The intro to the FCI standard does imply that only whites are found, but further down, it allows white, red, and sesame.
Unrelated, I thought I read (somewhere - I may be mistaken!) that Nami was the second colored Kishu in the US.
I didn't realize that the AKC-FSS was linked to FCI though! That's interesting. I'll keep that in mind. I'll be honest - I'm still interested in one of Nami's pups if @shishiinu breeds again.
@Calia - I know cream can "dilute" the tan coloration and I would never think breeding creams - for the stated reason(s) - or breeding for creams should be a goal with any healthy population.
Anyway.
MirkaM: It's why I say it's a mistake. Logicaly, we have to check background of dogs. I totally agree with this.
Dam don't have long coat gene... it's his sister.
This girls are from a previous Kaï breeder who is... very bad mouth for goods reasons in France.
France need good import if we want to produce on new basis ! No cream, no long coat.
Nami is the first colored Kishu imported from Japan to the US (not North America).
In Japan there is nothing wrong with breeding colored Kishu, and you can show them in NIPPO events as well. However there is slight preference toward the white Kishu since the standard is based off of it.
Colored Kishu Ken are *not* analogous to (of?) cream Kai Ken. With the colored Kishu, they can be registered with NIPPO and entered in shows. With cream Kai Ken that cannot be registered with either NIPPO or KKA and cannot be shown.
----
WRT producing cream or long coat Kai Ken... I wouldn't go out of my way to produce them, and I probably wouldn't repeat the mating that produced them either, but I also wouldn't cull the sire or dam from my program just because they produced long coat or cream.
I can think of much worse things one can produce than a long coat or cream/white colored Kai Ken. Ya know?
To cull the parents from a breeding program because they produce faulty coats will just further narrow the gene pool. A better thing to do is to breed a carrier to a dog from non-carrier lines, that will only give a 25% chance of each pup being carriers. The odds of getting a carrier are significantly reduced, and you don't get the drawback of narrowing the gene pool.
Soren & Ushi (wooly Akita) on the iced lake near our old house:
Catching some rays (she loves to bask in the sun):
Bonus pic of Ushi (3yrs) because... she's a spaz, and would be mad if not included:
I love the picture of Soren & Ushi together!