i love her face with you and your friend on the hike it looks like she is kinda saying she just farted but no one has discovered it yet...sorry over active imagination.
It is an inherited genetic issue, though, as PoeticDragon outlined above. And thanks for that write up, Claire, as it was useful information about this issue.
She's a very pretty girl. Tacking her eyes is a good idea. I'm glad to hear that she will be better soon.
I have to point this out though. A genetic issue is not shitty luck. It's Genetic!! And if a known genetic issue arises then that needs to be disclosed to potential buyers.
@poeticdragon I didn't put it together that you were the breeder but I am sure you will disclose all the issues this litter had and cull breeding the mom if it continues.
Read carefully @poeticdragon's explanation. There is no entropion gene so to say. It cannot be detected or screened. It is rather a combination of the physical traits of both dogs that when combined together effect the development, growth and structure of skin, skull, eyes, etc. Again, like @poeticdragon's explanation states, "Two unaffected dogs may have affected puppies when bred together, but never when bred with other individuals; a breeding that produces entropion should not be repeated." There is no way possible to determine that the mom of this litter is the source or cause, especially if she's had previous litters with no issues. Same thing for the father. What we do know is that when you combine these two specific dogs together, there is a high chance the pups will suffer from entropion so never repeat a breeding of these two specific dogs together. But each dog can be bred with other dogs and never experience the same result. So the fact that in this situation both mother and father had previous litters with other dogs and never produced a known pup with entroption and then two pups from this litter happen to have it, kind of is shitty luck. It couldn't be detected or screened and no known previous cases to go by. It just happened. Like humans, shit happens and no one is perfect. Some people have almond shaped eyes, some long noses, some oval shaped faces, some people have big heads. There is no specific gene for these kinds of physical attributes. It depends on mom and dad and gets passed on but not from a specific gene identifiable on a single strand of DNA.
I would also like to state that @poeticdragon absolutely disclosed this information to her puppy buyers as soon as it became known to her. It just so happened that some of the pups had already gone to their new homes and had not yet shown signs or symptoms. But believe me, they were contacted. In fact, one of the pups was literally hours from being put on a plane and @poeticdragon rushed the pup afterhours to a vet to be examined and was on the phone with the buyer. She did what a responsible breeder was supposed to do. In fact, she is probably one of the most transparent breeders I have ever come across. Who else broadcasts live 24 hour footage of puppycam from their own personal residence? You can't get any more honest and transparent than that.
@ThreeFish231118 I read her explanation. I know Claire and felt comfortable saying what I did. I don't think she will think I attacked her.
But this is genetic. And if it shows up again I trust that she will cull the mom. I stick by my statement. I'm a person of ethics but you're more than welcome to try and school me again.
@ThreeFish231118 I read her explanation. I know Claire and felt comfortable saying what I did. I don't think she will think I attacked her.
But this is genetic. And if it shows up again I trust that she will cull the mom. I stuck by my statement. I'm a person of ethics but you're more than welcome to try and school me again.
I have the exact same response as tjbart, and I DID read Claire's response, which I said. Perhaps Threefish would like to read it again too, because Claire did say
Entropion is a genetically inherited disorder, but it is not as simple as both parents carrying a single recessive gene.
I had thought it was, but I only had a cursory knowledge of entropian, and I found Claire's post to be informative. Neither Tara or I were attacking her. We were just making the point that it is, in fact, genetic.
She's doing what she should do, which is inform the people who have puppies, and not repeat the breeding, and as Tara noted, if it shows up again, not breed the bitch again. That's what good breeders do, and she's doing it, and being transparent about the health problems.
There's no attack here, so no need for a defense either. (And for the record, there are other breeders who use puppycams. It's not like that in and of itself makes a breeder a good one, though I do know several very good breeders who use them.)
I'm not trying to school anyone and certainly didn't intend to be interpreted as such. Clearly there is a misunderstanding about defined genetic traits. There is no clearly defined genetic base for entropion. It is not a clearly defined gene scientifically identified in the DNA makeup of any dog. It is assumed and largely accepted that entropion is genetic in terms of skull conformation, skin elasticity, etc. But it is not, as of yet, an identified gene in and of itself. I agree with what Claire said and am saying the same thing just clarifying that there is no entropion gene. It cannot be identified genetically. Its a matter of mom and dads head conformation, skin, eye shape. Those physical attributes get passed on genetically but entropion is not identifiable on those genes. Essentially Claire, king_bidgood and myself are saying the same thing its just not being interpreted as the same thing. Trust me, all three of us have been through this with our vets and opthamologists. Its not an actual gene that can be detected or singles out but rather comes from the genetic makeup of the related physical attributes.
@threefish....I don't really understand what it is you are arguing here. I'm not misunderstanding anything; I just don't agree with you.
Yes, I'm clear there is not one specific gene that can be identified that causes entropion. I get that. That said, every single source I have looked at on entropion, which, btw, I've been looking at for reasons that have nothing to do with this thread, says that there is often a genetic base for it. Even your post, above, says there is. Just because the gene is not defined does not mean it is not a genetic disorder, and I find it disingenuous to insist that it is not.
My point is that entropion is not a genotype. There are no heterozygous or homozygous alleles. It cannot be traced through a pedigree. It cannot be predicted through a pedigree. There are no genetic tests, in fact no way at all to identify it through any kind of testing on a molecular level. It is not a mutation or abnormality of any chromosome which are them duplicated and passed on to offspring. It is just shitty luck. Bijo and Zuigan can each produce another 100 litters and never again see a single case of entroption and those dogs can go on to reproduce and never see a case of entroption and so on. There is nothing wrong with breeding either dog again, just not together or with dogs with similar facial/head features and structure. Obviously certain features and structures are predisposed to the inward rolling of the eyelids but it is not a genotype.
Not sure if I agree that entropion is not a genotype, but I'll point out that an easier analogy is hip dysplasia.
We don't have a genetic test for it either, but we do know that among the various factors that cause HD, the greatest predictor of whether a dog will get HD or not is whether any close relatives have had HD or not.
Definately, one should not be doing a repeat breeding that causes entropion. I would also say, definately don't do a breeding of a normal dog that has produced entropion to a normal dog that has family members that has entropion.
Unfortunately, you don't always get a full family history of imports or dogs that are still in a foreign country, so you do the best you can with the dogs in front of you. It's still a gamble, but you do your best to stack the odds based on what you know.
Fortunately, it sounds like you can usually catch entropion early enough so an affected dog is not bred and his/her quality of life can be corrected if the issue is caught early enough. Tacking is also ridiculously cheap compared to HD surgery.
Yes, hip dysplasia is a pretty decent analogy. Thank you. The only difference is that with entropion you can have two unaffected dogs from unaffected lineage produce offspring that are affected.
The American College of Veterinary Opthalmologists (ACVO) and the Canine Eye Registration Foundation (CERF) describe entropion as a phenotype and not a genotype. It is classified as polygenic although not specifically known. In terms of inheritability CERF classifies entropion as 'not defined' and breeding recommendations are not restricted and in fact breeder option. It is discouraged, but not prohibited and a dog that produces of spring with entropion or that even has entropion can potentially pass CERF. The entropion diagnosis is just noted as a code.
Even though some of you disagree with me, I am not stating a matter of opinion but rather matter of facts as I have gathered from ACVO, CERF, vets and opthamologists. As far as my understanding of genetics, my family and I spent 9 months working with geneticists from 6 leading institutions trying to explain how our son acquired genetic traits that are not present in me or my husband. I personally know that somethings are just the luck of two things combining and if attempted to be repeated with different variables, would never happen again.
Kaylee did awesome with her tacking, and even with nylon in her eyelid she is 10 times happier. Here are some pictures of her the day of her surgery.
Watching tv with me
that night
Though I will say it is killing her that the vet said she cant go on big walks for an other two weeks. so she doesn't hurt her face sniffin bushes. she is looking forward to the 6th i am sure.
Also I know we all love our doggies and we always want what is best for then. Thank you everyone for your entropian input.
Kaylee update with Pictures! So shes so good now. she got her stitches out on one side, and the rest will come out end of august. We went to the Sierras and so there are some fun pictures of that. ALSO the UKC show next week is ... IN MY TOWN!!! So Kaylee can see @poeticdragon and her familly! Without further ado, the Pupah ALSO She got her papers! And I made a key for when we have someone dog sit her
Comments
It is an inherited genetic issue, though, as PoeticDragon outlined above.
I have to point this out though. A genetic issue is not shitty luck. It's Genetic!! And if a known genetic issue arises then that needs to be disclosed to potential buyers.
@poeticdragon I didn't put it together that you were the breeder but I am sure you will disclose all the issues this litter had and cull breeding the mom if it continues.
I would also like to state that @poeticdragon absolutely disclosed this information to her puppy buyers as soon as it became known to her. It just so happened that some of the pups had already gone to their new homes and had not yet shown signs or symptoms. But believe me, they were contacted. In fact, one of the pups was literally hours from being put on a plane and @poeticdragon rushed the pup afterhours to a vet to be examined and was on the phone with the buyer. She did what a responsible breeder was supposed to do. In fact, she is probably one of the most transparent breeders I have ever come across. Who else broadcasts live 24 hour footage of puppycam from their own personal residence? You can't get any more honest and transparent than that.
But this is genetic. And if it shows up again I trust that she will cull the mom. I stick by my statement. I'm a person of ethics but you're more than welcome to try and school me again.
She's doing what she should do, which is inform the people who have puppies, and not repeat the breeding, and as Tara noted, if it shows up again, not breed the bitch again. That's what good breeders do, and she's doing it, and being transparent about the health problems.
There's no attack here, so no need for a defense either. (And for the record, there are other breeders who use puppycams. It's not like that in and of itself makes a breeder a good one, though I do know several very good breeders who use them.)
I am trying to get the time off work @rikumom but we will see : )
Yes, I'm clear there is not one specific gene that can be identified that causes entropion. I get that. That said, every single source I have looked at on entropion, which, btw, I've been looking at for reasons that have nothing to do with this thread, says that there is often a genetic base for it. Even your post, above, says there is. Just because the gene is not defined does not mean it is not a genetic disorder, and I find it disingenuous to insist that it is not.
@king_bidgood, we hope you get the timeoff, the more the merrier at the picnic!
We don't have a genetic test for it either, but we do know that among the various factors that cause HD, the greatest predictor of whether a dog will get HD or not is whether any close relatives have had HD or not.
Definately, one should not be doing a repeat breeding that causes entropion. I would also say, definately don't do a breeding of a normal dog that has produced entropion to a normal dog that has family members that has entropion.
Unfortunately, you don't always get a full family history of imports or dogs that are still in a foreign country, so you do the best you can with the dogs in front of you. It's still a gamble, but you do your best to stack the odds based on what you know.
Fortunately, it sounds like you can usually catch entropion early enough so an affected dog is not bred and his/her quality of life can be corrected if the issue is caught early enough. Tacking is also ridiculously cheap compared to HD surgery.
The American College of Veterinary Opthalmologists (ACVO) and the Canine Eye Registration Foundation (CERF) describe entropion as a phenotype and not a genotype. It is classified as polygenic although not specifically known. In terms of inheritability CERF classifies entropion as 'not defined' and breeding recommendations are not restricted and in fact breeder option. It is discouraged, but not prohibited and a dog that produces of spring with entropion or that even has entropion can potentially pass CERF. The entropion diagnosis is just noted as a code.
Even though some of you disagree with me, I am not stating a matter of opinion but rather matter of facts as I have gathered from ACVO, CERF, vets and opthamologists. As far as my understanding of genetics, my family and I spent 9 months working with geneticists from 6 leading institutions trying to explain how our son acquired genetic traits that are not present in me or my husband. I personally know that somethings are just the luck of two things combining and if attempted to be repeated with different variables, would never happen again.
Watching tv with me
that night
Though I will say it is killing her that the vet said she cant go on big walks for an other two weeks. so she doesn't hurt her face sniffin bushes. she is looking forward to the 6th i am sure.
Also I know we all love our doggies and we always want what is best for then. Thank you everyone for your entropian input.
So shes so good now. she got her stitches out on one side, and the rest will come out end of august.
We went to the Sierras and so there are some fun pictures of that. ALSO the UKC show next week is ... IN MY TOWN!!! So Kaylee can see @poeticdragon and her familly!
Without further ado, the Pupah
ALSO
She got her papers!
And I made a key for when we have someone dog sit her
THE END