What good post, Mac. I do hope there may someday be an entity in Shikoku that is about health. I would expect you, Katja and Kris to be good breeders and I am certainly aware of the cost related to importation. I hope too, that a population geneticist might one day, calculate what it takes for a breed with such low numbers to maintain their health and diversity.
I don't own a Shikoku yet but have been doing my research and have met Kris, Katja and Peggy. I have respect for all of them. I wish that proven litters from Europe were also more affordable with plane fair etc. I can't say I am knowledgeable enough to spend that money from Europe or Japan. I will breed depending on what I learn after hopefully starting out well, with a healthy pup etc. I hope that science, too, can be a friend of the Shikoku. I congratulate you on your hopes of a sizable kennel. I know you will indulge them all:-) I also want to thank, Osy (and Beth) for making Dr Dennis O'Brien at UMO aware of Fate's condition. He's definitely 1 of THE Seizure researchers on the planet. I had always hoped for transparent health in a breed where you all know each other. That can even happen with 2 breeders!!! Think of it!!! Certainly not impossible:-)
Sorry for taking so long to chime in, I have not had the time to stay on top of the forum posts and comments the past few months. I co-own Shogun with @Edgewood and Katja.
First, please know, the Shogun x Kimi breeding had more to do with timing and my desire to retire Kimi than anything else.
[Snip]
The breeding was a success, and I took Kimi to Akashima in late March so that Katja could oversee the birth and subsequent placement of the pups. As Shogun is much loved by my family, I kept him here until Kimi was ready to go; when the pups were ~8 weeks old. This is why the prospective pup owners were not informed ahead of time. Katja did not yet have Shogun, and he was not tested until after the pups were placed.
Thanks very much for taking the time to fill in some of the background as to what was behind the decision for this litter. The timeline you provided is informative. I would like to note however, that this still does not provide an explanation for why the owners of the pups from this litter had to find out from a forum post.
I'm hard-pressed to see why two of the owners of the pups from that litter 1) had to find out about the HD diagnosis from the forum, 2) had to have their first explanation of what that could mean for their dog's future given to them by forum members rather than their breeder. The decision not to discuss this with the puppy owners as soon as it was known is one that seems to me, disingenuous at best.
The breeding that produced Fate and siblings was Kuma x Aiko. Two of the pups in the litter were notably smaller than the others. Kuma has sired many healthy litters, and Aiko was fixed and homed so the breeding combination that produced pups with such sad neurological conditions could not be repeated. One of my Shikoku, Yoshi, is a male rescue with moderate HD - both his parents had Good to Excellent OFA scores; even still, Katja never repeated the breeding that produced him. Katja is passionate about the breed, has done a lot to help the NA population get to where it is at, and in all of my dealings with her, has always been up front and no nonsense. She has helped bring recognition to the breed, both by attending shows, puppy classes, etc and raising breed awareness, to working with the CKC to properly establish the Shikoku as a fully recognized and registered breed, as well as hosting visitors who would like to learn more and meet a Shikoku in person. I consider her to be an ethical breeder and a fantastic person.
It's good to hear that the dam was retired but I haven't seen an explanation of what, if any investigative steps were taken.
To clarify, my breeder did say they were "sorry" & it's something they can't test an animal for & that it is a "rare condition."
[snip]
That said, I would have more appreciated seeing it discussed, with the breeders, as a whole. Something done to find out what the issue is in the breed. Trying to figure out the cause / symptoms / etc. How to prevent it in the future. Ways to screen for it in the future. Being simply asked what were the early signs so they could detect it in future litters so others would not have to go through this. What it means for breeding. Instead, it gets ignored, unmentioned.
Most of all, I would have liked to have known beforehand, when Fate's bro told the breeder. They still have never confessed to me Fate's bro has an issue, and I have reason to believe, from 2nd hand knowledge, that Fate's 3rd brother also has this issue. A simple "hey, I don't know if you've had any issues, but Fate's littermate has been experiencing...xyz."
~
With a condition that severe, refraining from repeating the breeding is necessary but not sufficient. With so little known about the condition I'd hope that it would be investigated to the fullest extent of the breed community's ability, particularly the breeder. To me it's the equivalent of Tay Sachs disease, and without more knowledge, how can one possibly know that they are taking all possible measures to ensure that it will not happen again (especially since the stud is still active, and other potential dams are likely related to the dam that produced the litter).
@cmpteki - I appreciate the time that you've taken to answer these questions and share with us your thoughts. I just wish that there weren't still so many unanswered questions.
[edited to clarify that only two owners had to find out here since another potential owner did get to discuss this with her breeder and to note the potential issue posed by the close relations between NA shikoku.]
@cmpteki - Thanks for stepping in and adding your thoughts. I'm sure there was some hesitation there, as this thread has been a rollercoaster ride of thoughts and feelings - both negative and positive. However, I do think it's a good learning experience for the community.
I also think that if the Shikoku breeders would take more time to share information with the community, whether in this forum or in some other venue, you'd have less "flare up" threads like this.
I'm curious tho, what about Yamato? He's produced at least 2 offspring with HD (severe HD in one case)... Has he been culled from the breeding population as well?
@violet-in-seville - The other puppy owners finding out via a forum post before the breeder could inform them is likely due more to unfortunate timing than anything else. The results of the hip x-rays, decision to rehome, and my post indicating Shogun needed a home, all occurred within a *very* short time span.
Information posted online travels faster than pretty much anything else. Kris, Katja, and myself, also had to have time to absord said test results; and frankly, I am still in disbelief. Shogun meant, and represented, a lot to me, and not only in a financial sense, and the news he had HD was devastating.
Given a bit more time, or an older, slower informational medium, I am sure the pups new owners would have heard from Katja first. My goal was to get the ad posted, and get the word out that we needed a nice home for Shogun. My apologies if this speedy post had a negative effect or caused any happy new Shikoku owners some measure of distress.
The pups themselves may or may not develop HD, and regardless, they will be fantastic companions to their new owners.
-
@brad1878 - There was definitely some hesitation. Having been absent for the past while, I was surprised at the number of responses and varying opinions posted by forum members in response to a relatively innocuous thread; the placement of Shogun.
As to Yamato, I am not one of his owners, so am not sure of his current status in a given breeding program, though his OFA score was 'Good'. My guess is the breeding combinations producing pups with HD would not be repeated. My own view, if pups with any dam continue to show HD, he should be removed from the breeding pool, or all future owners be given a heads up on possible complications should their new pup inherit this condition.
Without a proper genetic test to determine vialbility of a given dog to pass along inherited HD, it is difficult at best to attempt to breed the condition out, as the problem may come from several generations back, and pop out whenever the right (wrong?) combination of genetic factors arise. Worse still is that environment, activity levels, and play styles during the formative stages can affect joint development and produce this condition, even if the HD itself is not an inherited trait.
Personally, I am all for sharing information, and like nothing better than to educate whenever possible. Unfortunately, I am still in the learning process, and truth be told, this process never stops. As I garner more knowledge about the breed itself, and some of the more obscure canine medical conditions in general, I am happy to share this information with prospective owners. I am also not scared to adopt or rescue a dog with issues, be they potential, or realized.
One of the largest problems in trying to re-establish a breed like the Shikoku is the limited genetic pool and the accepted practices of being an ethical breeder.
In order to be seen as an ethical breeder, any dog with fault is immediately removed from the breeding pool.
When dealing with such low numbers, this is counter productive to helping the breed as a whole. Ideally, realtively minor faults would be accepted, and the dogs able to continue to increase the overall population; however, it is harder to find homes for pups if the parents have known issues.
Even if ones goal is preservation of the breed and not profit, unless independantly wealthy, costs have to be met, which means pups have to be sold. I won't say how far in the red my own attempts to start a viable breeding program have me, but I will continue to do what I can.
Once the overall numbers are substantially increased, and a somewhat more genetically diverse population is established, THEN one can attempt to breed out specific faults.
If the general community and potential pup owners accepted this simple fact, and were willing to contribute or purchase a pup despite known genetic defects with the parents and the potential for inherited problems, the breed would recover much more quickly, relative to the current decline or 'genetic stagnation at best' that we see now.
The problem is, everyone wants 'the perfect pup', and sadly, unless things change, will continue to want said 'perfect pup' until the Shikoku is no more. That having been said, there are more than a few of us working towards helping the Shikoku population increase, and with more open minds, a willingness to share information, and perhaps a little luck, the overall impact on the breed will be a positive one.
@cmpteki - thanks very much for the additional information on the timeline. I realize that the fact that there are three individual parties on the breeder end makes things more complicated, so it's good to hear about things in greater detail.
With a condition that severe, refraining from repeating the breeding is necessary but not sufficient. With so little known about the condition I'd hope that it would be investigated to the fullest extent of the breed community's ability, particularly the breeder.
How exactly is the breeder supposed to research more on this? Fate's affliction doesn't even have a name or confirmed diagnosis. There are a list of symptoms which have been documented. The symptoms have been compared against known disorders and nothing fit. I don't see anywhere else to go from there, barring doing more test breedings to purposefully reproduce the disease in order to study its progression through multiple individuals and look for genetic markers. That is of course opening a whole other can of worms regarding available population, research funding, finding a geneticist to conduct the study, ethical issues of reproducing it on purpose, and so-on. That's even assuming the disease is purely genetic and did not have a circumstantial/environmental component.
EDIT: I mean no sarcasm. I really don't see what more research could be done, my question is genuine.
The fact is, it seems, everyone would rather cull a dog for mild hips then breed a dog with good hips but it is "ugly as hell" by the standard. Let's face it, no one is importing "ugly standard" shikoku, they're importing the ones they think will show well, even tho it would probably be more cost-effective to increase the genepool to import at least SOME "ugly standard" shikoku. [ ETA: which would still be drop-dead gorgeous shikoku, BTW ]
Also, you have to look at how many shikoku have been imported in a year. I think @brada1878 has imported more kai ken [ & kishu & shikoku when you count the Sakura [?], Kaiju, & Nami ] in a year by himself more than all the NA breeders combined.
@Sangmort I'm going to play devil's advocate here to balance the discussion. I just wanted to mention that the last two Shikoku that were imported to the States this year, one to Kris, and the other to Peggy, were imported solely for their value as out crosses (as they are somewhat lacking in current show 'type'). The first 2 Shikoku females I sent Katja 2 and a half years ago were also imported because they were carrying some outside bloodlines (again not the most typey females). Also, Katja & @cmpteki have imported 6 Shikoku over the past 2.5 years. I wouldn't bash the kennels of North America that hard. No one's perfect, they all make mistakes, but overall I think they're a pretty good lot.
As Osy mentioned, I was contacted about the issues that Fate was having, and I did my best to see if there were any instances of it here in Japan. I've personally seen two dogs (females) with similar symptoms, and another dog (male) that I had seen when younger seems to have died of something similar. I remember when I saw the dog, the kennel said they were not placing/showing/breeding him because he had barely made it when he was born. He was very small, and as a he got older they noticed something was not right in his hind legs. This kennel has been breeding Shikoku for over 50 years, and this is the first time they have seen this. Veterinarians here were stumped as to what it was, other than that it seemed to be a neural issue, and the only way to make a better diagnosis was through an autopsy.
More information sharing about the breed between kennels, and also with prospective owners? Yes, that is necessary. Moving past the stage where there was just one or two kennels in North America producing litters, and with the present higher breed visibility and popularity, I hope someone can step up and take the lead of the breed club to take it to a better place in the future.
I feel partly at fault for sparking this intense discussion...
Though I have nothing valuable to add, I wanted to say thank you - this conversation has been an eye opener about breeding and shikoku's. I wish I could do more to help.
Yes, you can test for hips, and elbows, and eyes. No, as far as I can tell, we can't test for whatever issue it is that Fate & His brother [ & possibly another brother ] has, but do you know, that not one single shikoku breeder has EVER asked me what the signs were for Fate? Never have they asked me what are the exact symptoms, or when did they start to show up, and looking back, there were QUITE a few that showed up very early on.
Indeed, it's the opposite, when I first came out about Fate, it was made to look like a simple environmental issue, or I got private messaged that it was my fault, and I did xyz that caused it. [ they know who they are ]
I'm not looking for something complicated (like genetic studies, or replication). I do think however, that asking those questions is a pretty basic place to start. Keeping a record of what happened, living environment, age of onset, signs, trends etc. is something that could be really helpful in the future even if you don't see the impact now. I don't expect anyone to magically find the cause or solution, or even not have it happen again. But when a rare disease happens in a small population, where dogs exhibit a group of symptoms not usually seen together, I hope the response isn't just to check with a vet and other breeders, and then not ask any additional questions when a solution or explanation doesn't clearly present itself.
Observation, documentation, and theorizing is how we used to figure things out about diseases. The resources that it takes to do that are time, and communication. I don't see why that can't be done now (and I'm not saying that some of that wasn't done, but I'm flabbergasted that the breeder didn't ask basic questions about symptoms and environment).
My caveat is that I'm sort of biased. I know little about Katja other than that she is a prominent North American breeder of shikoku respected by many. I have been lurking on NK since 2008. What I know of Osy is that she has been a great poster dedicated and passionate about nihon ken, active in debate and the spreading of education, and her posts are generally enthusiastic, thoughtful, and balanced. I find it difficult to believe that she would say something untrue about the situation out of malice, pettiness, or any of the other reasons why I think people sometimes post crazy or wildly exaggerated things.
I also want to mention that it is of course, entirely possible that it is not genetic, but if you're not asking questions you can't even start to theorize/speculate.
[edited to add]
An interesting article on the study of a rare (human) disease. The funding will never be there, but I think it gives some insight as to what a big difference asking questions can make in the long run.
I agree with Violet_in_Seville. Wouldn't the breeder want to know more? Know more about what the symptoms and signs were to watch for this in future? Or, frankly, just actually listen to someone who you sold a dog to?
Because despite the relative rareness of this problem, there are other symptoms that show up early too. My Akitas problems, I realized later, showed up in puppyhood, and they were, actually, quite alarming like Osy went through with fate (he has spondylosis, or that's as close as my vets can come to a diagnosis. It will kill him early, but it is not as devastating as Fate's situation). He also was a very calm puppy, who seemed "mellow" and slow. He was slow to learn to climb stairs. He didn't jump up ever. He was very slow to get up. I thought that's just how he was, but really, the problem is he doesn't always have control of his back legs.
In a rare situation as with Fate, wouldn't the breeder actually want to KNOW what the symptoms and signs were? (Or in my case, wouldn't it have been nice if the breeder actually responded? Even a dismissive "sorry" would have been better than absolutely nothing at all).
A breeder who can't even be bothered to talk to and listen to someone they sold a dog to is a not ethical in my opinion. Even if they don't have answers, just the communication is worth a lot.
In comparison, there's the few(er) good breeders who are really there for the people that have their dogs. Brad and Jen have always been up front about their breeding program and their dogs, and I know I could go to them anytime I have a question or issue. And I've asked questions of another Akita breeder, and gotten support from her, even though I don't even have one of her dogs. I'm grateful for people who care about their dogs, but also care about the people they sell their dogs too. I guess they are, indeed, few and far between.
The breeding that produced Fate and siblings was Kuma x Aiko. Two of the pups in the litter were notably smaller than the others. Kuma has sired many healthy litters, and Aiko was fixed and homed so the breeding combination that produced pups with such sad neurological conditions could not be repeated.
Furthermore, I was never told about Hugo, Fate's littermate, [ til this day ] and, like the Shogun puppy owners, had to find out through this forum about Fate's brother. Not very "up front and no nonsense" if you ask me.
Did this sibling have issues as well, and it's owner contacted Katja before Holly did? I was told, after finding out about Hugo, someone who saw said littermate claimed the back legs were trembling as well. [ one of the more obvious symptoms of whatever this issue is ]
So either the owner of Fate & Hugo's littermate contacted Katja before Holly & I did, and she subsequently spayed/rehomed aiko because of that [ which would mean she knew at least twoof fate's littermates had issues and never told me ]
or
Aiko was not spayed / rehomed because of the puppies issues as you said.
Beyond not being informed personally, why was the information that at least one shikoku had neurological issues not made publicly known to the shikoku community when Aiko was supposedly fixed because of that issue? Shouldn't that have been posted in her rehoming thread? Or in any of the many threads that pop up on this forum about shikoku health issues? Likewise, why was Shogun's producing puppies with bad hips not originally posted in his thread?
I am saddened that he has subsequently been neutered; however, I understand the reasoning.
[ ... ]
The results of the hip x-rays, decision to rehome, and my post indicating Shogun needed a home, all occurred within a *very* short time span.
So, there was time enough to neuter Shogun, [ in addition to post his rehoming thread, decide to rehome him between the three of you, and get his hip x-rays ] but not enough to let the puppy owners know in a 5 minute email? [ genuinely asking, not being sarcastic ]
As a side comment, I do not understand the propensity some kennels have to breed to specific coat, colouration, etc. If a combination produces healthy offsping, I am content. I also happen to like the Shikoku in all of its amazing combinations, be it red, black and tan, black sesame, sesame, red sesame, or cream.
That is how I feel as well.
---
I'm going to play devil's advocate here to balance the discussion. I just wanted to mention that the last two Shikoku that were imported to the States this year, one to Kris, and the other to Peggy, were imported solely for their value as out crosses (as they are somewhat lacking in current show 'type'). The first 2 Shikoku females I sent Katja 2 and a half years ago were also imported because they were carrying some outside bloodlines (again not the most typey females). Also, Katja & @cmpteki have imported 6 Shikoku over the past 2.5 years. I wouldn't bash the kennels of North America that hard. No one's perfect, they all make mistakes, but overall I think they're a pretty good lot.
"Somewhat lacking" & "not the most" implies still showable, especially when we're talking about dogs outside of Japan with no Japanese judge to judge them Irregardless it's good to know at least some genetic diversity is being brought in. Thank you. That makes me very happy to hear. [ what I posted before was speculation, based off the impression of how said imported dogs are presented, it was never meant to be posted as "fact" ]
Though I don't consider, personally, 8 shikoku between 4 people in 2.5 years a big number of imports for a dieing breed, when it comes to preservation / increasing low numbers / improvement of genepool being the forethought. I hope there was more than that. [ the statistic, on average, would be an import of .8 shikoku per year per person, or rounding up, 1 per year per person ]
Also, I am not bashing anyone. If it comes off that way, I apologize. Maybe if NA Shikoku Breeders [ as a whole ] were more up-front and open I would have no reasons to doubt / speculate. [ see above points to Mac ] Never said anyone was a bad group either. There are, at least, two NA Breeders I would consider purchasing a puppy from if I wasn't so afraid of ending up with another pup like Fate [ due to the genetic lottery ]
However, I think not being notified that One [ possibly two ] of Fate's bros had a neurological issue when the breeder knew for at least 6 months before I did...I don't consider that a "mistake."
Especially when you consider the subject of Shikoku having a fatal neurological issue in the breed was not public knowledge before Fate / Hugo. There is also something else that I am not comfortable sharing publicly, that I consider even worse then the above as far as being "good" or not. However, I don't want to bring someone else's name into it unless they want to repeat what they were told themselves.
--
There was a time when importing was far more difficult then it is today, [ thanks to you Shigeru, for making it easier to get more NK into the states ] and there were only really 2 breeders in NA. When your choices are limited, you go with what you can get. Importing is much easier then it use to be, and there are more NA Shikoku breeders today then what we originally started with.
I hope more people look at importing as an option, and keeping their pups intact even if it's just to produce a single litter, or co-owning and importing with others, even if it means waiting longer. Or keeping them intact as "back-ups" so there are not gaps of time with no breedings being done.
More than anything this breed needs more breed-able dogs, and a strong community united in one goal until their numbers go up. Sadly, as long as all these secrets are being kept, health issues hidden or not discussed openly, the breed politics and BS, will be the downfall. ~
A good article in light of this. I loved the Atlantic Article, @Violet-in-Seville. I have a subscription and thought the piece was very pertinent. Thanks, Britain
"Somewhat lacking" & "not the most" implies still showable, especially when we're talking about dogs outside of Japan with no Japanese judge to judge them Irregardless it's good to know at least some genetic diversity is being brought in. Thank you. That makes me very happy to hear. [edit]
Though I don't consider, personally, 8 shikoku between 4 people in 2.5 years a big number of imports for a dieing breed, when it comes to preservation / increasing low numbers / improvement of genepool being the forethought. I hope there was more than that. [ the statistic, on average, would be an import of .8 shikoku per year per person, or rounding up, 1 per year per person ]
Interesting and heated discussion, with many opinions and differing point of view. I can say that I bolded Osy's statement above because in the past year, I have imported 3 dogs, two of which are co-owns (Shogun and the "outcross" male that was just sent to Peggy), plus my "outcross" female.
In total, the cost of those 3 imports is just under $12,000, although my costs, since they were co-owns, were about $7300. I am not independently wealthy, and I know the other breeders do not have unlimited funds. We do the best that we can, but importing is VERY expensive, more so than purchasing a puppy in North America. Yes Brad has imported a lot of Kai, but without him, where would that breed be? As far as I am aware, the other Kai breeders have not imported many dogs. Again, we are slowing increasing our Shikoku numbers and it really would be nice to have a more coordinated effort -- but like anything else, that is hard since we all have very busy lives trying to earn the money from our day jobs to import these dogs. And then we have the heartache of the bad OFA screening for Shogun, he was quite an expensive dog and in reality that is money lost to us, although he still is a very wonderful dog. I know I do it for the love of the breed and not to make money, and I believe the other breeders feel the same.
And breeding shikoku is not the easiest thing either, you can ask the 2 newer breeders and the older breeders about the number of "failed" breedings because the pair wouldn't mate, or the pair had other issues. In my case, I had to retire my older male for infertility issues (very sad for me because he is a truly wonderful dog, with no health issues that have been discovered outside of poor sperm).
So -- I truly love this breed, think that they make wonderful pets, and want to preserve them. But, there are only so many funds that I have to do this, and to date, I have zero puppies produced. And on top of that, I do think that all of us breeders do want to produce healthy dogs, but with such a limited population and also learning about what health issues they have, it is a "work in progress" as Brad said.
This thread has brought up many positive and negative emotions for many of us. I just wanted to give some perspective about how it is not all that easy to help establish shikoku in North America, for many reasons.
I am willing to spend that kind of money when the time comes. First, I simply want healthy puppy to start before I invest that much money. @ayk thanks. I tested the DB with Nico. but if there were linkage from the DB to a health registry, it would emphasize setting a precedent.
@Sangmort - Shogun was neutered last Thursday (July 25th); ie, between my ad posting and the comment left yesterday, hence my comment that he had subsequently been neutered.
I do not know all of the specifics in the Kuma x Aiko litter as neither of them is my dog. I do know that the litter that produced Hugo and Fate had two pups that were much smaller than the others - puppy pictures of the litter show this. I also know that Aiko was fixed and homed, so there is no chance this breeding combination can be repeated. To my knowledge Aiko did not have another litter after the one that produced Hugo and Fate.
Perhaps 'can not be repeated' would have been a better choice of words than 'could not be repeated' in my previous post, as using 'could' can, depending on how things are read, imply that the spay was because of the neurological issue, as opposed to 'can', which is closer to my intended thought - I was simply stating that it is impossible for the combination to be repeated, as one of the dogs is no longer intact. I am sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I try to avoid re-using words, and phrasing things in the shortest, most definitive manner - the recent novella length posts not withstanding.
Aiko is a beautiful dog, though if I recall correctly, she was shy towards men; it was one of the challenges I overcame on my first visit to Akashima, earning her trust.
I did not see any evidence of a similar condition with Kuma or Aiko on any of my visits, they simply appear to be healthy and happy Shikoku.
Timing of Aiko's spay should co-incide with the approximate date of her being placed, as standard practice is to leave the animal intact and defer costs until a new home is found. Any queries needing more specific answers, or definitive timeline related information, would have to be answered by someone with more direct knowledge.
I can only speak from my own experiences. I have never known Katja to be anything other than up front and no nonsense, and I have never had any problems communicating with her. I have been to Akashima more than a dozen times in the past three years, hence my random knowledge about a lot of the dogs and breedings. I also help update the Akashima website; I did the new cover page last year, and continue to update the news and dogs sections as needed. Katja has been an immense help to me while I am working to establish my own breeding program, and has always responded to queries, and answered any questions I have regarding the breed and processes involved.
The thread about the third littermate contains no additional information, with one of the latter comments being my own, and expressing curiousity about how the third, presumably larger, offspring was doing. I watched the videos and read the comments, very heartbreaking, and I am truly sorry for what the owners of the affected pups have had to go through. I can relate to a sense of frustration and lack of hope about a medical condition with no cure; I watched my father wither and pass from cancer last fall.
@Edgewood - One positive is, importing a LOT cheaper now than it was when I imported the bulk of our Kai thanks to a better exchange rate! It was more than double back then for the shipping charges - VERY PAINFUL. :-O
I really don't think anyone has the right to demand that a breeder import 0.8 (or however many) dogs per year, but especially someone who is not themselves importing and breeding the dogs.
@Edgewood - One positive is, importing a LOT cheaper now than it was when I imported the bulk of our Kai thanks to a better exchange rate! It was more than double back then for the shipping charges - VERY PAINFUL. :-O
Yes - I truly do NOT want to think about how much money you and Jen spent importing dogs, it really must be mind boggling.
I know that people think puppies here are expensive, but until everyone understands the costs of importing dogs, it really puts it into perspective.
And yes, the exchange rate can make a big difference too!
I feel this has really been a productive post with some valuable constructive input. It really points out the difficulties that can occur with any program, not just a limited population. I don't see any of the comments as horribly negative, not everything can be sweetness and light, especially when there are difficulties.
In regard to canine health at least the info is now out there, and that's a good thing. Moving forward everyone can at have open eyes.
As Shibamistress points out, not everything is obvious when you have no experience with particular symptoms of a disease,....in cases like these it helps to have the support.
@ Sangmort I really do sense your frustration and I hope you can find some peace in the future. Thank you for discussing to let us know. Yes, the human factor can be one of the biggest hurdles in dog breeding.
@ Shibamistress: That's a good question and I agree. I honestly think lack of interaction for many is due to lack of time. Often people are stretched thin on being able to provide time or focus on a specific issue, let alone tracking their litters. Particularly difficult if there isn't a definitive answer or even a classification for mysterious diseases.... In this case "Shikoku Neuro syndrome", for lack of better designation.
@ cmpteki: Thank you for your input and information to help clarify and @ Edgewood in regard to importing.
@ ayk: Thanks for noting where additional info can be entered to share the health issues for the Shikoku. It's not always obvious where the resources are to share the data.
Poetic Dragon wrote: "How exactly is the breeder supposed to research more on this? Fate's affliction doesn't even have a name or confirmed diagnosis. There are a list of symptoms which have been documented. The symptoms have been compared against known disorders and nothing fit. I don't see anywhere else to go from there, barring doing more test breedings to purposefully reproduce the disease in order to study its progression through multiple individuals and look for genetic markers. That is of course opening a whole other can of worms regarding available population, research funding, finding a geneticist to conduct the study, ethical issues of reproducing it on purpose, and so-on. That's even assuming the disease is purely genetic and did not have a circumstantial/environmental component."
Because there is so little genetic diversity in the Shikoku in this country, and the neurological problem several from one litter have is so severe, I think for the breed's sake Shikoku lovers should get together to help fund further testing of these dogs, if only after their deaths. When my foster Akita pup had neurological problems of similar severity, though not identical symptoms, I sent blood and urine samples to several researchers. That cost money, and perhaps that's where a community of Shikoku lovers could help.
For Buki one possibility was a storage disease, so we sent samples to the top expert in canine storage diseases, Dr Urs Giger at U Penn. After we sent samples several times, he determined Buki didn't have a storage disease. Buki had an MRI or CT (forget which), which didn't show anything unusual. The hardest thing was to have a necropsy by a pathologist just after he died, euthanized when he was around 2 years because of increasing seizures and aggression. The pathologist didn't find anything, and more samples were sent to Dr Giger, only confirming that Buki didn't have a storage disease, and to Dr Mark Neff at Van Amstel Institute, who's researching possible genetic causes of neurological conditions. Nothing from that, but at least we tried. I forget if we sent blood samples to the Akita database at CHIC, so future researchers could have a sample if they were researching similar conditions.
Because there are several affected littermates ?and several non affected, it seems to me it might be worth sending video to Dr Neff and asking if he might be interested in samples from as many of the family as possible. There may be other researchers who could be helpful--I didn't follow up on this. It's a long shot, but even a small possibility of finding something helpful to the breed as a whole seems worth trying.
I mentioned to Beth today that I could probably get samples from the dam/sire of the male that showed similar symptoms here in Japan. I think I can also get one from one or two of his littermates.
Comments
I hope too, that a population geneticist might one day, calculate what it takes for a breed with such low numbers to maintain their health and diversity.
Thanks for your post.
Britain
I had always hoped for transparent health in a breed where you all know each other.
That can even happen with 2 breeders!!! Think of it!!! Certainly not impossible:-)
I'm hard-pressed to see why two of the owners of the pups from that litter 1) had to find out about the HD diagnosis from the forum, 2) had to have their first explanation of what that could mean for their dog's future given to them by forum members rather than their breeder. The decision not to discuss this with the puppy owners as soon as it was known is one that seems to me, disingenuous at best.
It's good to hear that the dam was retired but I haven't seen an explanation of what, if any investigative steps were taken.
@sangmort wrote: With a condition that severe, refraining from repeating the breeding is necessary but not sufficient. With so little known about the condition I'd hope that it would be investigated to the fullest extent of the breed community's ability, particularly the breeder. To me it's the equivalent of Tay Sachs disease, and without more knowledge, how can one possibly know that they are taking all possible measures to ensure that it will not happen again (especially since the stud is still active, and other potential dams are likely related to the dam that produced the litter).
@cmpteki - I appreciate the time that you've taken to answer these questions and share with us your thoughts. I just wish that there weren't still so many unanswered questions.
[edited to clarify that only two owners had to find out here since another potential owner did get to discuss this with her breeder and to note the potential issue posed by the close relations between NA shikoku.]
I also think that if the Shikoku breeders would take more time to share information with the community, whether in this forum or in some other venue, you'd have less "flare up" threads like this.
I'm curious tho, what about Yamato? He's produced at least 2 offspring with HD (severe HD in one case)... Has he been culled from the breeding population as well?
Information posted online travels faster than pretty much anything else. Kris, Katja, and myself, also had to have time to absord said test results; and frankly, I am still in disbelief. Shogun meant, and represented, a lot to me, and not only in a financial sense, and the news he had HD was devastating.
Given a bit more time, or an older, slower informational medium, I am sure the pups new owners would have heard from Katja first. My goal was to get the ad posted, and get the word out that we needed a nice home for Shogun. My apologies if this speedy post had a negative effect or caused any happy new Shikoku owners some measure of distress.
The pups themselves may or may not develop HD, and regardless, they will be fantastic companions to their new owners.
-
@brad1878 - There was definitely some hesitation. Having been absent for the past while, I was surprised at the number of responses and varying opinions posted by forum members in response to a relatively innocuous thread; the placement of Shogun.
As to Yamato, I am not one of his owners, so am not sure of his current status in a given breeding program, though his OFA score was 'Good'. My guess is the breeding combinations producing pups with HD would not be repeated. My own view, if pups with any dam continue to show HD, he should be removed from the breeding pool, or all future owners be given a heads up on possible complications should their new pup inherit this condition.
Without a proper genetic test to determine vialbility of a given dog to pass along inherited HD, it is difficult at best to attempt to breed the condition out, as the problem may come from several generations back, and pop out whenever the right (wrong?) combination of genetic factors arise. Worse still is that environment, activity levels, and play styles during the formative stages can affect joint development and produce this condition, even if the HD itself is not an inherited trait.
Personally, I am all for sharing information, and like nothing better than to educate whenever possible. Unfortunately, I am still in the learning process, and truth be told, this process never stops. As I garner more knowledge about the breed itself, and some of the more obscure canine medical conditions in general, I am happy to share this information with prospective owners. I am also not scared to adopt or rescue a dog with issues, be they potential, or realized.
One of the largest problems in trying to re-establish a breed like the Shikoku is the limited genetic pool and the accepted practices of being an ethical breeder.
In order to be seen as an ethical breeder, any dog with fault is immediately removed from the breeding pool.
When dealing with such low numbers, this is counter productive to helping the breed as a whole. Ideally, realtively minor faults would be accepted, and the dogs able to continue to increase the overall population; however, it is harder to find homes for pups if the parents have known issues.
Even if ones goal is preservation of the breed and not profit, unless independantly wealthy, costs have to be met, which means pups have to be sold. I won't say how far in the red my own attempts to start a viable breeding program have me, but I will continue to do what I can.
Once the overall numbers are substantially increased, and a somewhat more genetically diverse population is established, THEN one can attempt to breed out specific faults.
If the general community and potential pup owners accepted this simple fact, and were willing to contribute or purchase a pup despite known genetic defects with the parents and the potential for inherited problems, the breed would recover much more quickly, relative to the current decline or 'genetic stagnation at best' that we see now.
The problem is, everyone wants 'the perfect pup', and sadly, unless things change, will continue to want said 'perfect pup' until the Shikoku is no more. That having been said, there are more than a few of us working towards helping the Shikoku population increase, and with more open minds, a willingness to share information, and perhaps a little luck, the overall impact on the breed will be a positive one.
EDIT: I mean no sarcasm. I really don't see what more research could be done, my question is genuine.
As Osy mentioned, I was contacted about the issues that Fate was having, and I did my best to see if there were any instances of it here in Japan. I've personally seen two dogs (females) with similar symptoms, and another dog (male) that I had seen when younger seems to have died of something similar. I remember when I saw the dog, the kennel said they were not placing/showing/breeding him because he had barely made it when he was born. He was very small, and as a he got older they noticed something was not right in his hind legs. This kennel has been breeding Shikoku for over 50 years, and this is the first time they have seen this. Veterinarians here were stumped as to what it was, other than that it seemed to be a neural issue, and the only way to make a better diagnosis was through an autopsy.
@poeticdragon That is a valid question.
More information sharing about the breed between kennels, and also with prospective owners? Yes, that is necessary. Moving past the stage where there was just one or two kennels in North America producing litters, and with the present higher breed visibility and popularity, I hope someone can step up and take the lead of the breed club to take it to a better place in the future.
Though I have nothing valuable to add, I wanted to say thank you - this conversation has been an eye opener about breeding and shikoku's. I wish I could do more to help.
I'm not looking for something complicated (like genetic studies, or replication). I do think however, that asking those questions is a pretty basic place to start. Keeping a record of what happened, living environment, age of onset, signs, trends etc. is something that could be really helpful in the future even if you don't see the impact now. I don't expect anyone to magically find the cause or solution, or even not have it happen again. But when a rare disease happens in a small population, where dogs exhibit a group of symptoms not usually seen together, I hope the response isn't just to check with a vet and other breeders, and then not ask any additional questions when a solution or explanation doesn't clearly present itself.
Observation, documentation, and theorizing is how we used to figure things out about diseases. The resources that it takes to do that are time, and communication. I don't see why that can't be done now (and I'm not saying that some of that wasn't done, but I'm flabbergasted that the breeder didn't ask basic questions about symptoms and environment).
My caveat is that I'm sort of biased. I know little about Katja other than that she is a prominent North American breeder of shikoku respected by many. I have been lurking on NK since 2008. What I know of Osy is that she has been a great poster dedicated and passionate about nihon ken, active in debate and the spreading of education, and her posts are generally enthusiastic, thoughtful, and balanced. I find it difficult to believe that she would say something untrue about the situation out of malice, pettiness, or any of the other reasons why I think people sometimes post crazy or wildly exaggerated things.
I also want to mention that it is of course, entirely possible that it is not genetic, but if you're not asking questions you can't even start to theorize/speculate.
[edited to add]
An interesting article on the study of a rare (human) disease. The funding will never be there, but I think it gives some insight as to what a big difference asking questions can make in the long run.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/06/the-mystery-of-the-second-skeleton/309305/
Can I ask, how does that Shikoku kennel in Korea mesh in with the population in North America? California?
Because despite the relative rareness of this problem, there are other symptoms that show up early too. My Akitas problems, I realized later, showed up in puppyhood, and they were, actually, quite alarming like Osy went through with fate (he has spondylosis, or that's as close as my vets can come to a diagnosis. It will kill him early, but it is not as devastating as Fate's situation). He also was a very calm puppy, who seemed "mellow" and slow. He was slow to learn to climb stairs. He didn't jump up ever. He was very slow to get up. I thought that's just how he was, but really, the problem is he doesn't always have control of his back legs.
In a rare situation as with Fate, wouldn't the breeder actually want to KNOW what the symptoms and signs were? (Or in my case, wouldn't it have been nice if the breeder actually responded? Even a dismissive "sorry" would have been better than absolutely nothing at all).
A breeder who can't even be bothered to talk to and listen to someone they sold a dog to is a not ethical in my opinion. Even if they don't have answers, just the communication is worth a lot.
In comparison, there's the few(er) good breeders who are really there for the people that have their dogs. Brad and Jen have always been up front about their breeding program and their dogs, and I know I could go to them anytime I have a question or issue. And I've asked questions of another Akita breeder, and gotten support from her, even though I don't even have one of her dogs. I'm grateful for people who care about their dogs, but also care about the people they sell their dogs too. I guess they are, indeed, few and far between.
So there are 3 other dogs who have the same thing as Fate ?
Did any of them have similar pedigrees? Or is that info not readily available ?
Just curious.
If Aiko was fixed because of Fate & Hugo, then why was she being re-homed for retirement in March 2012? [ http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7273/akashimas-aiko-needs-a-nice-retirement-home/p1 ]
Holly, Hugo's owner, says she contacted Katja about this in June of 2012, after Aiko was already looking for a home. [ http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7553/hugos-hind-legs/p1 ]
Furthermore, I was never told about Hugo, Fate's littermate, [ til this day ] and, like the Shogun puppy owners, had to find out through this forum about Fate's brother. Not very "up front and no nonsense" if you ask me.
Also, what about this third littermate? [ not one of the "smaller puppies" ] http://nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/8368/littermate-to-hugo-fate#Item_19
Did this sibling have issues as well, and it's owner contacted Katja before Holly did? I was told, after finding out about Hugo, someone who saw said littermate claimed the back legs were trembling as well. [ one of the more obvious symptoms of whatever this issue is ]
So either the owner of Fate & Hugo's littermate contacted Katja before Holly & I did, and she subsequently spayed/rehomed aiko because of that [ which would mean she knew at least twoof fate's littermates had issues and never told me ]
or
Aiko was not spayed / rehomed because of the puppies issues as you said.
Beyond not being informed personally, why was the information that at least one shikoku had neurological issues not made publicly known to the shikoku community when Aiko was supposedly fixed because of that issue? Shouldn't that have been posted in her rehoming thread? Or in any of the many threads that pop up on this forum about shikoku health issues? Likewise, why was Shogun's producing puppies with bad hips not originally posted in his thread?
So, there was time enough to neuter Shogun, [ in addition to post his rehoming thread, decide to rehome him between the three of you, and get his hip x-rays ] but not enough to let the puppy owners know in a 5 minute email? [ genuinely asking, not being sarcastic ]
That is how I feel as well.
--- "Somewhat lacking" & "not the most" implies still showable, especially when we're talking about dogs outside of Japan with no Japanese judge to judge them
Though I don't consider, personally, 8 shikoku between 4 people in 2.5 years a big number of imports for a dieing breed, when it comes to preservation / increasing low numbers / improvement of genepool being the forethought. I hope there was more than that. [ the statistic, on average, would be an import of .8 shikoku per year per person, or rounding up, 1 per year per person ]
Also, I am not bashing anyone. If it comes off that way, I apologize. Maybe if NA Shikoku Breeders [ as a whole ] were more up-front and open I would have no reasons to doubt / speculate. [ see above points to Mac ] Never said anyone was a bad group either. There are, at least, two NA Breeders I would consider purchasing a puppy from if I wasn't so afraid of ending up with another pup like Fate [ due to the genetic lottery ]
However, I think not being notified that One [ possibly two ] of Fate's bros had a neurological issue when the breeder knew for at least 6 months before I did...I don't consider that a "mistake."
Especially when you consider the subject of Shikoku having a fatal neurological issue in the breed was not public knowledge before Fate / Hugo. There is also something else that I am not comfortable sharing publicly, that I consider even worse then the above as far as being "good" or not. However, I don't want to bring someone else's name into it unless they want to repeat what they were told themselves.
--
There was a time when importing was far more difficult then it is today, [ thanks to you Shigeru, for making it easier to get more NK into the states
I hope more people look at importing as an option, and keeping their pups intact even if it's just to produce a single litter, or co-owning and importing with others, even if it means waiting longer. Or keeping them intact as "back-ups" so there are not gaps of time with no breedings being done.
More than anything this breed needs more breed-able dogs, and a strong community united in one goal until their numbers go up. Sadly, as long as all these secrets are being kept, health issues hidden or not discussed openly, the breed politics and BS, will be the downfall. ~
Thanks,
Britain
In total, the cost of those 3 imports is just under $12,000, although my costs, since they were co-owns, were about $7300. I am not independently wealthy, and I know the other breeders do not have unlimited funds. We do the best that we can, but importing is VERY expensive, more so than purchasing a puppy in North America. Yes Brad has imported a lot of Kai, but without him, where would that breed be? As far as I am aware, the other Kai breeders have not imported many dogs. Again, we are slowing increasing our Shikoku numbers and it really would be nice to have a more coordinated effort -- but like anything else, that is hard since we all have very busy lives trying to earn the money from our day jobs to import these dogs. And then we have the heartache of the bad OFA screening for Shogun, he was quite an expensive dog and in reality that is money lost to us, although he still is a very wonderful dog. I know I do it for the love of the breed and not to make money, and I believe the other breeders feel the same.
And breeding shikoku is not the easiest thing either, you can ask the 2 newer breeders and the older breeders about the number of "failed" breedings because the pair wouldn't mate, or the pair had other issues. In my case, I had to retire my older male for infertility issues (very sad for me because he is a truly wonderful dog, with no health issues that have been discovered outside of poor sperm).
So -- I truly love this breed, think that they make wonderful pets, and want to preserve them. But, there are only so many funds that I have to do this, and to date, I have zero puppies produced. And on top of that, I do think that all of us breeders do want to produce healthy dogs, but with such a limited population and also learning about what health issues they have, it is a "work in progress" as Brad said.
This thread has brought up many positive and negative emotions for many of us. I just wanted to give some perspective about how it is not all that easy to help establish shikoku in North America, for many reasons.
There is a "notes" section on the Shikoku online pedigree database where additional information can be entered.
http://www.shikoku-pedigree.com/index.php
@ayk thanks. I tested the DB with Nico. but if there were linkage from the DB to a health registry, it would emphasize setting a precedent.
I do not know all of the specifics in the Kuma x Aiko litter as neither of them is my dog. I do know that the litter that produced Hugo and Fate had two pups that were much smaller than the others - puppy pictures of the litter show this. I also know that Aiko was fixed and homed, so there is no chance this breeding combination can be repeated.
To my knowledge Aiko did not have another litter after the one that produced Hugo and Fate.
Perhaps 'can not be repeated' would have been a better choice of words than 'could not be repeated' in my previous post, as using 'could' can, depending on how things are read, imply that the spay was because of the neurological issue, as opposed to 'can', which is closer to my intended thought - I was simply stating that it is impossible for the combination to be repeated, as one of the dogs is no longer intact. I am sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I try to avoid re-using words, and phrasing things in the shortest, most definitive manner - the recent novella length posts not withstanding.
Aiko is a beautiful dog, though if I recall correctly, she was shy towards men; it was one of the challenges I overcame on my first visit to Akashima, earning her trust.
I did not see any evidence of a similar condition with Kuma or Aiko on any of my visits, they simply appear to be healthy and happy Shikoku.
Timing of Aiko's spay should co-incide with the approximate date of her being placed, as standard practice is to leave the animal intact and defer costs until a new home is found. Any queries needing more specific answers, or definitive timeline related information, would have to be answered by someone with more direct knowledge.
I can only speak from my own experiences. I have never known Katja to be anything other than up front and no nonsense, and I have never had any problems communicating with her. I have been to Akashima more than a dozen times in the past three years, hence my random knowledge about a lot of the dogs and breedings. I also help update the Akashima website; I did the new cover page last year, and continue to update the news and dogs sections as needed. Katja has been an immense help to me while I am working to establish my own breeding program, and has always responded to queries, and answered any questions I have regarding the breed and processes involved.
The thread about the third littermate contains no additional information, with one of the latter comments being my own, and expressing curiousity about how the third, presumably larger, offspring was doing. I watched the videos and read the comments, very heartbreaking, and I am truly sorry for what the owners of the affected pups have had to go through. I can relate to a sense of frustration and lack of hope about a medical condition with no cure; I watched my father wither and pass from cancer last fall.
I know that people think puppies here are expensive, but until everyone understands the costs of importing dogs, it really puts it into perspective.
And yes, the exchange rate can make a big difference too!
In regard to canine health at least the info is now out there, and that's a good thing. Moving forward everyone can at have open eyes.
As Shibamistress points out, not everything is obvious when you have no experience with particular symptoms of a disease,....in cases like these it helps to have the support.
@ Sangmort I really do sense your frustration and I hope you can find some peace in the future. Thank you for discussing to let us know. Yes, the human factor can be one of the biggest hurdles in dog breeding.
@ Shibamistress: That's a good question and I agree. I honestly think lack of interaction for many is due to lack of time. Often people are stretched thin on being able to provide time or focus on a specific issue, let alone tracking their litters. Particularly difficult if there isn't a definitive answer or even a classification for mysterious diseases.... In this case "Shikoku Neuro syndrome", for lack of better designation.
@ cmpteki: Thank you for your input and information to help clarify and @ Edgewood in regard to importing.
@ ayk: Thanks for noting where additional info can be entered to share the health issues for the Shikoku. It's not always obvious where the resources are to share the data.
Like I mentioned a valuable thread... : )
Snf
"How exactly is the breeder supposed to research more on this? Fate's affliction doesn't even have a name or confirmed diagnosis. There are a list of symptoms which have been documented. The symptoms have been compared against known disorders and nothing fit. I don't see anywhere else to go from there, barring doing more test breedings to purposefully reproduce the disease in order to study its progression through multiple individuals and look for genetic markers. That is of course opening a whole other can of worms regarding available population, research funding, finding a geneticist to conduct the study, ethical issues of reproducing it on purpose, and so-on. That's even assuming the disease is purely genetic and did not have a circumstantial/environmental component."
Because there is so little genetic diversity in the Shikoku in this country, and the neurological problem several from one litter have is so severe, I think for the breed's sake Shikoku lovers should get together to help fund further testing of these dogs, if only after their deaths. When my foster Akita pup had neurological problems of similar severity, though not identical symptoms, I sent blood and urine samples to several researchers. That cost money, and perhaps that's where a community of Shikoku lovers could help.
For Buki one possibility was a storage disease, so we sent samples to the top expert in canine storage diseases, Dr Urs Giger at U Penn. After we sent samples several times, he determined Buki didn't have a storage disease. Buki had an MRI or CT (forget which), which didn't show anything unusual. The hardest thing was to have a necropsy by a pathologist just after he died, euthanized when he was around 2 years because of increasing seizures and aggression. The pathologist didn't find anything, and more samples were sent to Dr Giger, only confirming that Buki didn't have a storage disease, and to Dr Mark Neff at Van Amstel Institute, who's researching possible genetic causes of neurological conditions. Nothing from that, but at least we tried. I forget if we sent blood samples to the Akita database at CHIC, so future researchers could have a sample if they were researching similar conditions.
Because there are several affected littermates ?and several non affected, it seems to me it might be worth sending video to Dr Neff and asking if he might be interested in samples from as many of the family as possible. There may be other researchers who could be helpful--I didn't follow up on this. It's a long shot, but even a small possibility of finding something helpful to the breed as a whole seems worth trying.