When Hugo and Fate were first publicly revealed to have neurological issues, I wanted desperately to help figure out what they had in hopes that there could be a way to at least slow it down. Unfortunately, it seems that with a lot of diseases such as this there is no one test for all breeds. The test would have to be developed on a breed by breed basis, and in the end would function as a tool for breeders to prevent producing future litters.
My searches put me in contact with the researchers at the University of Missouri. During my discussions with one of the researchers, he stated that each breed has significant genetic differences. His example was that the gene combinations to produce a curly tail in one breed could cause floppy ears or long coat in another. I found that what they offer is to store DNA of affected dogs and their close relatives, and when enough DNA has been collect the breeders and/or breed club can fund research into forming a test to locate genetic markers for that specific genetic disease in the breed. He had mentioned that they do borrow from healthy samples collected in the OFA's CHIC database, and encouraged submitting as many dogs into it as possible.
If anybody would like a copy of the submission form, should they feel that they may have a Shikoku who is related to or has a similar condition to what Fate and Hugo have, feel free to PM me with an email address and if you are located in the US or not.
CHIC stores samples of affecteds, too, which means researchers from more than one institution can get samples. If you store samples at U Mo, I *think* only their researchers can access them, which limits your possibilities. Researchers at other institutions have done good work with neurological conditions, too.
CHIC stores samples of affecteds, too, which means researchers from more than one institution can get samples. If you store samples at U Mo, I *think* only their researchers can access them, which limits your possibilities. Researchers at other institutions have done good work with neurological conditions, too.
The problem with CHIC is that the samples collected are hairs and saliva, which doesn't give the amount of genetic detail needed to pinpoint specific genes. From what I remember from my conversation, they do work alongside other research facilities in order to get a better hand during research.
I'm almost positive we stored blood from Buki with CHIC; I'll check. A kind of funny story: Buki was neutered when he was somewhere between 7 mos and a year because he had a retained testicle. Because he had this unusual and severe condition, my vet asked if I'd like to save his testicles for future genetic research. I have one in my freezer and one in formaldehyde or something like that in a kitchen cupboard. I don't know how many times I've forgotten about them and come upon them and been quite startled.
CHIC stores blood or cheek swab (not saliva); U Mo stores the blood for them and UC Davis stores the swabs. Blood is better; but swabs work, too, especially for international submissions.
@cmpteki First and foremost, thank you for contributing and clarifying to the best of your ability. Not everyone, myself included, take a purely outgoing and benefit-of-the-doubt viewpoint with poor/slow communication, but it's all with the best interest of the breed at heart. With how closely guarded these health issues are, in my opinion the only thing that's going to get these issues into a legitimate discussion is to bluntly point out discrepancies. There's a great community here and everyone here honestly wants the best for the dogs.
With the "short time period between discovery and bringing it to light", I must mention that I waited not one, but five whole days to see if there would be any further information given. When there wasn't, *five* days later I pointed out that there were no health checks done so that it would be apparent to anyone considering adopting him. Not to dissuade, but so that full disclosure on the dog is available for those considering to make an educated decision on it. Better to find the right home than to have someone with no intention or time+funds available to support him in the event that he needs anything more than supplements.
There are a lot of resources here on this forum, in more than just posts to read. If yourself and Katja were more to be more involved here and more open about the breeding practices then I think you all would have an excellent advantage. As far as I can tell, there are only two of the Shikoku breeders (@Edgewood and Corina) on here taking an active/semi-active part in the community that is entirely about doing the best for this breed as well as the other NK breeds.
@brada1878 and co. Thank you for all of the responses and turning this into a legitimate discussion. There's a three year timeframe until my upcoming Hokka pup will be ready to mate, along with all of the other puppies. So this has been very, very informative. It's good to hear about all of the pluses and minuses related to OFA and other things, from a personal perspective.
I don't have a ton to contribute at the moment with my limited reply/reading time at work, but will definitely continue to follow the thread with interest. I do want to point out that due to this breed's endangered nature this should in fact be treated as a preservation effort. Part and parcel of that is taking the time to find suitable breeding members, and that means overseas imports. If it takes a year to locate a suitable male to bring in then so be it, that's the nature of a preservation program. It's not a good idea to purely focus upon NA availability in this case, or the few Japanese kennels that has a good relation with the NA breeder, and taking the pup that becomes available from them. A little more homework may take some more time, but the time is available in this case. There's no encroaching danger to the dog's ecosystem that is going to cause extinction. Spread a wide net and get a good selection even if it means it takes a year to find a new dog with suitable genetic diversity/distance from the current dogs.
@poeticdragon Woah there partner, all she did was do the mathemagic for what the average comes out to. I'm not seeing any demands. It is in fact a tiny amount of dogs.
@brada1878 The toes might seem laughable from a breeding standpoint, but from a medical viewpoint they're a concern for functional running form as well as there have been two dogs that tore those toes and bled to death in practices I've worked at, and it's not uncommon for one to come in every few months who needs the toe surgically removed or bleeding stemmed + sutured after tearing. So they're a legitimate concern, but perhaps not so much in the current state of the breed.
I fully encourage and support respectful discussions such as this forum as they are an opportunity to discuss, exchange ideas and educate each other concerning our hobby that is so dear and near to our hearts.
The forum has had extensive discussion concerning Shogun and Kuma. Some of the points raised are well thought out and are well meaning and contribute to the discussion in a positive way. Unfortunately not all are based on accurate information or sound thinking and some are misleading and destructive.
It’s been almost 40 years since I became involved in breeding dogs; always with the goal of being responsible for my breeding and remaining true to the type. I have spent thousands of dollars in health testing and monitoring and have always been there for my dogs and their families and by supporting my breeding program with a contract that includes a comprehensive health and genetic guarantee that clearly defines my obligations.
Genetics, health tests and DNA monitoring is a rapidly developing science. Greater minds than mine have spent years researching all of these things to try to enlighten us; unfortunately the results have often only achieved more controversy and confusion rather than providing concrete guidance and information. I educate myself and I exercise due diligence in advance and then use 20/20 hindsight to monitor the results.
I have spent considerable time and effort to keep myself educated and informed concerning the genetics of the Shikoku as well as what new trends are taking place in testing for and monitoring health issues in dogs and I want to remind everyone that I was the first Shikoku breeder world wide that initiated regular health testing of the breed. Clearly the many posts that have been made on this subject indicate a collective desire for a greater sharing of information and a pooling of our collective knowledge, something that I have hesitated to do in the past. More importantly, I have not done a very good job of communicating with all of you about some of the information and results of research that I have done, nor have a shared my thought process with you, which I now realize has been a mistake. I am committing to sharing the results of my research with this forum moving forward.
Currently I am waiting for confirmation from the OFA that the DNA tests they have available to identify the recessive gene in some breeds such as the Jack Russel that may be one of the causes of Spinocerebellar Ataxia can also be used on the Shikoku and Shikoku Canada has contacted the Canine Health Information Center to explore the possibility of setting up a DNA data base for the Shikoku.
I believe that in the end, we all want what is best for our dogs and the breed in general. Although I have many years of breeding experience, and have relied on the mentorship of other even more experienced breeders, we are all still amateurs when it comes to the new technologies available to us to monitor breeding results. As with any living thing, there are risks involved and we can all only do our best and be diligent, responsible and transparent in our efforts.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to the overall discussion. There's no consensus on how things should proceed when health issues arise. Even if everyone may not agree with your decisions (and no one but you and the other parties directly involved know the full context of any of those decisions), I think we all appreciate hearing your perspective on this. As a very prominent NA shikoku breeder, I think there's a lot of value in having your input in discussions about the overall health of the breed.
@cezieg Maybe I missed the message of the post I was responding to...
Sangmort was saying that 8 (dogs) / 4 (people) over 2.5 years is .8 dogs a year per person. I believe that they were more surprised that more Shikoku hadn't been brought over. While Sangmort wasn't demanding 0.8 dogs be brought over, I think they were hinting that the rate of importing should increase for preservation efforts.
It's a very passionate subject, so it garners a bit of both ends of the response "extremes" heh. I think there will always be posts like that, but we all definitely need to keep in mind that pushing people away with hostility will only reduce any thoughts of further sharing and community activity.
My first posts may have been a bit too accusatory, which I apologize for. I think a little bit more communication would solve the majority of things discussed here, as well as the sharing of ideas/experiences, plus health issues that breeders are coming across.
There's a wide scope of educated/experienced people here, from veterinary field specialists to hobby breeders to experienced breeders, and one of the most valuable sources of information, the actual pet owners. It's impossible to keep full time attention to all of the pups, and only owners can do that, which is invaluable.
Your experience is very respected, so thank you for writing here! I sincerely hope that you could share more of your Shikoku experiences, good and bad. I think that something as simple as posing questions to the NKForum community about issues you're coming across, breeding obstacles, and what's working for you would get you quite a few constructive opinions and ideas.
Realistically, I understand the concern of sharing breeding "tactics" and the possible thoughts of someone else picking up your ideas, resulting in it being harder to place puppies with more breeders in the game (just being honest, anyone doing any activity concerning payments and deposits will have such thoughts, it's bred into us in North American culture). There's hardly anyone here that even has the time for a single litter though, not to mention running a kennel haha. I'm planning on starting a small working Hokkaido kennel in Oregon or Washington once the pup I'm importing matures, and after talking amongst members a "support group" was built of people interested in being involved in the breed (many of which who were just looking for someone to import alongside with, or a good excuse!). So your experience would be helping not only the other Shikoku breeders, which directly would benefit you and the breed with higher quality pups, but would also help a lot with developing the Hokkaido, JA, and Kai efforts as well.
That's really interesting that a Shikoku DNA database may be possible based upon the OFA DNA tests. That's definitely something worth pursuing if it pans out, and I'm sure all of the Shikoku owners here would be willing to contribute. If the need for a crossbreed is ever agreed upon, then all this potential knowledge sharing/transparency would certainly contribute towards healthy NA Nihon Ken of ALL breeds, so the NA Shikoku breeders would have prime picks available without the oppressive importation fees.
I sincerely hope that you, @cmpteki, @Edgewood, and @ShikokuSpirit will continue to post relatively frequently and raise any issues up for crowdsourcing solutions, and good dogs in need of home. Sorry again for stirring things up at the start haha. Overall this ended up being very constructive though
Btw, out of curiosity, what would you all say are the major health issues afflicting the Shikoku as a breed? The mysterious neurological disease that @Sangmort's Fate and littermates, plus a few Japan Shikoku, have experienced is certainly one of them, but thankfully not widespread. HD, rear dew claws (to skip the medical term), and...?
I plan on getting a Shikoku at some point, but that's going to have to wait until my Oregon property is built up and the Hokka situation is stable (thinking 5 years). Not gonna lie, I love the 'tude the lady Shikoku's have (Kurenai, ChoCho, Ahi) haha. It'd be neat to be able to contribute as well.
Just to clarify, it's not rear dew claws that are "real" health or functional issues. Lots of breeds have them and they're just removed at birth.
It's the extra nail that's on the outside of the foot that's just odd. No other breed I know of has them so there's no comparison. Could be harmless or non-inheritable and addressed by removal at birth, or it could be linked to something else. Just monitoring should suffice at this point. I wouldn't rank it as high as hip dysplasia, luxating patellas, and certainly not the ataxia. Quality of life isn't affected for an urban dog who isn't likely to snag them.
@ayk or anybody, have there been other cases of "pinkies" beside Miyu? She's the only one I've heard of with those, the only other similar cases being the rear dew claws.
@cezieg - The search function on this forum isn't that great to look up old topics, but if you do a google search that includes the "nihon ken forum" and "health issues", you'll be able to find some old topics.
Here is one thread that indicates that there is some sort of leg problem in the Shikoku in Japan.
@ayk were you speaking of any breed that has back dew claws as a trait? If so, great pyrenees have double back dew claws. All of them. It is considered a breed trait. That might be something to compare with..
@myabee09 - No, I'm not talking about the rear dew claws on the INSIDE of the leg. Most of the French breed will have double dew claws there as their standard, and many other breeds have single dewclaws.
I'm also not talking about split toes or extra toes like in the Norwegian Lundehund.
This single Shikoku case had an extra nail on the OUTSIDE of the leg.
Oh, ok. I see now. I've seen something like that before, but on the tail. I believe it's called keratoacanthoma. That usually happens on tails, necks, and heads of dogs though, not on the leg. It's like a keratin tumor I think. Not cancerous, and it looks like a claw but doesn't have a quick. The one I saw in those pictures looks just like the one I saw on that dog's tail. I also saw a lot of dogs that had dew claws removed and they grew back similar to that. But none on the outside of the leg.. the research on the tumors is kind of interesting though.
Just trying to throw out my two cents I've seen some strange stuff as a groomer and it makes me curious, so I research everything!
Symptoms would fit with the pattern Fate followed, I believe (seizures, ataxia, twitching, etc). I'm not sure about dogs, but I think it has both child and adult onsets in humans.
Oh no, another one. Poor baby. Was this a dog in Japan? I know you said that a lot of owners here don't like doing testing.
From what I've read the symptoms definitely match. I feel like Fate's onset might have been latter, but the littermates who were also affected developed problems earlier, didn't they? Plus the fact that the whole litter had it seems to suggest genetics, which is the cause of this gangliodosis... Seems like a likely potential culprit. Maybe this will help you convince more people to get dogs with similar neurological symptoms tested.
A DNA (saliva?) sample was sent to Genoscoper Laboratories, a European lab who offers DNA diagnostic services for pet owners and breeders, called MyDogDNA, for analysis. In their package, they have a test for the Shiba gangliosidosis mutation.
It will be interesting to hear the results of the test. I don't recall any US labs able to diagnose anything with Fate, but I don't know the specific details. Perhaps one of those university researchers would also be interested in a sample for comparison?
Comments
My searches put me in contact with the researchers at the University of Missouri. During my discussions with one of the researchers, he stated that each breed has significant genetic differences. His example was that the gene combinations to produce a curly tail in one breed could cause floppy ears or long coat in another. I found that what they offer is to store DNA of affected dogs and their close relatives, and when enough DNA has been collect the breeders and/or breed club can fund research into forming a test to locate genetic markers for that specific genetic disease in the breed. He had mentioned that they do borrow from healthy samples collected in the OFA's CHIC database, and encouraged submitting as many dogs into it as possible.
Here are some links for those who would like to know more:
http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/
If anybody would like a copy of the submission form, should they feel that they may have a Shikoku who is related to or has a similar condition to what Fate and Hugo have, feel free to PM me with an email address and if you are located in the US or not.
With the "short time period between discovery and bringing it to light", I must mention that I waited not one, but five whole days to see if there would be any further information given. When there wasn't, *five* days later I pointed out that there were no health checks done so that it would be apparent to anyone considering adopting him. Not to dissuade, but so that full disclosure on the dog is available for those considering to make an educated decision on it. Better to find the right home than to have someone with no intention or time+funds available to support him in the event that he needs anything more than supplements.
There are a lot of resources here on this forum, in more than just posts to read. If yourself and Katja were more to be more involved here and more open about the breeding practices then I think you all would have an excellent advantage. As far as I can tell, there are only two of the Shikoku breeders (@Edgewood and Corina) on here taking an active/semi-active part in the community that is entirely about doing the best for this breed as well as the other NK breeds.
@brada1878 and co. Thank you for all of the responses and turning this into a legitimate discussion. There's a three year timeframe until my upcoming Hokka pup will be ready to mate, along with all of the other puppies. So this has been very, very informative. It's good to hear about all of the pluses and minuses related to OFA and other things, from a personal perspective.
I don't have a ton to contribute at the moment with my limited reply/reading time at work, but will definitely continue to follow the thread with interest. I do want to point out that due to this breed's endangered nature this should in fact be treated as a preservation effort. Part and parcel of that is taking the time to find suitable breeding members, and that means overseas imports. If it takes a year to locate a suitable male to bring in then so be it, that's the nature of a preservation program. It's not a good idea to purely focus upon NA availability in this case, or the few Japanese kennels that has a good relation with the NA breeder, and taking the pup that becomes available from them. A little more homework may take some more time, but the time is available in this case. There's no encroaching danger to the dog's ecosystem that is going to cause extinction. Spread a wide net and get a good selection even if it means it takes a year to find a new dog with suitable genetic diversity/distance from the current dogs.
@poeticdragon Woah there partner, all she did was do the mathemagic for what the average comes out to. I'm not seeing any demands. It is in fact a tiny amount of dogs.
@brada1878 The toes might seem laughable from a breeding standpoint, but from a medical viewpoint they're a concern for functional running form as well as there have been two dogs that tore those toes and bled to death in practices I've worked at, and it's not uncommon for one to come in every few months who needs the toe surgically removed or bleeding stemmed + sutured after tearing. So they're a legitimate concern, but perhaps not so much in the current state of the breed.
The forum has had extensive discussion concerning Shogun and Kuma. Some of the points raised are well thought out and are well meaning and contribute to the discussion in a positive way. Unfortunately not all are based on accurate information or sound thinking and some are misleading and destructive.
It’s been almost 40 years since I became involved in breeding dogs; always with the goal of being responsible for my breeding and remaining true to the type. I have spent thousands of dollars in health testing and monitoring and have always been there for my dogs and their families and by supporting my breeding program with a contract that includes a comprehensive health and genetic guarantee that clearly defines my obligations.
Genetics, health tests and DNA monitoring is a rapidly developing science. Greater minds than mine have spent years researching all of these things to try to enlighten us; unfortunately the results have often only achieved more controversy and confusion rather than providing concrete guidance and information. I educate myself and I exercise due diligence in advance and then use 20/20 hindsight to monitor the results.
I have spent considerable time and effort to keep myself educated and informed concerning the genetics of the Shikoku as well as what new trends are taking place in testing for and monitoring health issues in dogs and I want to remind everyone that I was the first Shikoku breeder world wide that initiated regular health testing of the breed. Clearly the many posts that have been made on this subject indicate a collective desire for a greater sharing of information and a pooling of our collective knowledge, something that I have hesitated to do in the past. More importantly, I have not done a very good job of communicating with all of you about some of the information and results of research that I have done, nor have a shared my thought process with you, which I now realize has been a mistake. I am committing to sharing the results of my research with this forum moving forward.
Currently I am waiting for confirmation from the OFA that the DNA tests they have available to identify the recessive gene in some breeds such as the Jack Russel that may be one of the causes of Spinocerebellar Ataxia can also be used on the Shikoku and Shikoku Canada has contacted the Canine Health Information Center to explore the possibility of setting up a DNA data base for the Shikoku.
I believe that in the end, we all want what is best for our dogs and the breed in general. Although I have many years of breeding experience, and have relied on the mentorship of other even more experienced breeders, we are all still amateurs when it comes to the new technologies available to us to monitor breeding results. As with any living thing, there are risks involved and we can all only do our best and be diligent, responsible and transparent in our efforts.
My first posts may have been a bit too accusatory, which I apologize for. I think a little bit more communication would solve the majority of things discussed here, as well as the sharing of ideas/experiences, plus health issues that breeders are coming across.
There's a wide scope of educated/experienced people here, from veterinary field specialists to hobby breeders to experienced breeders, and one of the most valuable sources of information, the actual pet owners. It's impossible to keep full time attention to all of the pups, and only owners can do that, which is invaluable.
Your experience is very respected, so thank you for writing here! I sincerely hope that you could share more of your Shikoku experiences, good and bad. I think that something as simple as posing questions to the NKForum community about issues you're coming across, breeding obstacles, and what's working for you would get you quite a few constructive opinions and ideas.
Realistically, I understand the concern of sharing breeding "tactics" and the possible thoughts of someone else picking up your ideas, resulting in it being harder to place puppies with more breeders in the game (just being honest, anyone doing any activity concerning payments and deposits will have such thoughts, it's bred into us in North American culture). There's hardly anyone here that even has the time for a single litter though, not to mention running a kennel haha. I'm planning on starting a small working Hokkaido kennel in Oregon or Washington once the pup I'm importing matures, and after talking amongst members a "support group" was built of people interested in being involved in the breed (many of which who were just looking for someone to import alongside with, or a good excuse!). So your experience would be helping not only the other Shikoku breeders, which directly would benefit you and the breed with higher quality pups, but would also help a lot with developing the Hokkaido, JA, and Kai efforts as well.
That's really interesting that a Shikoku DNA database may be possible based upon the OFA DNA tests. That's definitely something worth pursuing if it pans out, and I'm sure all of the Shikoku owners here would be willing to contribute. If the need for a crossbreed is ever agreed upon, then all this potential knowledge sharing/transparency would certainly contribute towards healthy NA Nihon Ken of ALL breeds, so the NA Shikoku breeders would have prime picks available without the oppressive importation fees.
I sincerely hope that you, @cmpteki, @Edgewood, and @ShikokuSpirit will continue to post relatively frequently and raise any issues up for crowdsourcing solutions, and good dogs in need of home. Sorry again for stirring things up at the start haha. Overall this ended up being very constructive though
I plan on getting a Shikoku at some point, but that's going to have to wait until my Oregon property is built up and the Hokka situation is stable (thinking 5 years). Not gonna lie, I love the 'tude the lady Shikoku's have (Kurenai, ChoCho, Ahi) haha. It'd be neat to be able to contribute as well.
Just to clarify, it's not rear dew claws that are "real" health or functional issues. Lots of breeds have them and they're just removed at birth.
It's the extra nail that's on the outside of the foot that's just odd. No other breed I know of has them so there's no comparison. Could be harmless or non-inheritable and addressed by removal at birth, or it could be linked to something else. Just monitoring should suffice at this point. I wouldn't rank it as high as hip dysplasia, luxating patellas, and certainly not the ataxia. Quality of life isn't affected for an urban dog who isn't likely to snag them.
Here is one thread that indicates that there is some sort of leg problem in the Shikoku in Japan.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5469/shikoku-health-leg-pain/p1
At first it was thought that it could be luxating patellas. Brad's Ahi had them in both knees.
Perhaps it's pano. I remember now that Corina's Sakura and Adrian's Max has pano.
I think even Shigeru had a male Shikoku that pulled up lame after several days of hunting? I don't know what that diagnosis was.
http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm
I'm also not talking about split toes or extra toes like in the Norwegian Lundehund.
This single Shikoku case had an extra nail on the OUTSIDE of the leg.
I've seen something like that before, but on the tail. I believe it's called keratoacanthoma. That usually happens on tails, necks, and heads of dogs though, not on the leg. It's like a keratin tumor I think. Not cancerous, and it looks like a claw but doesn't have a quick. The one I saw in those pictures looks just like the one I saw on that dog's tail. I also saw a lot of dogs that had dew claws removed and they grew back similar to that. But none on the outside of the leg.. the research on the tumors is kind of interesting though.
Just trying to throw out my two cents
I've seen some strange stuff as a groomer and it makes me curious, so I research everything!
http://rufflyspeaking.net/five-things-you-think-know-about-breeding-but-youre-wrong/
Could this possibly fit with what affected Fate and his sibling?
From what I've read the symptoms definitely match. I feel like Fate's onset might have been latter, but the littermates who were also affected developed problems earlier, didn't they? Plus the fact that the whole litter had it seems to suggest genetics, which is the cause of this gangliodosis... Seems like a likely potential culprit. Maybe this will help you convince more people to get dogs with similar neurological symptoms tested.
A DNA (saliva?) sample was sent to Genoscoper Laboratories, a European lab who offers DNA diagnostic services for pet owners and breeders, called MyDogDNA, for analysis. In their package, they have a test for the Shiba gangliosidosis mutation.
It will be interesting to hear the results of the test. I don't recall any US labs able to diagnose anything with Fate, but I don't know the specific details. Perhaps one of those university researchers would also be interested in a sample for comparison?