Luxating Patella in Kais
I just took my baby girl for her yearly shots and the vet did an overall health check. She informed me that Toshi had a Luxating Patella and that it normally occurs in smaller breeds. I was looking online and found that it's considered a genetic problem with Kais, but has anyone else had this problem as well? The vet said they can fix it by deepening the groove for the knee to fit in, but it's going to cost around $2000. This came as a shock to me because I though the breed's genetic issues were dandruff and glaucoma.
Comments
Sage has a shallow groove in his knee (bear in mind he is only half kai, though, so there's other genetics at play) and the vet could force the patella to the side easily when he was about a year old. He did slip it hard one day running with some other dogs at the park, and yelled and limped and I had to carry him off to the car, then vet then rest and NSAIDS to recover. It slipped but wasnt torn. We heard similar from our vet, to keep an eye on it, start saving for surgery, but he is now almost 8 years old and has never had another trouble from it since and no surgery. I agree with NavyDog- be aware, (as in, perhaps a career in frisbee stunts is out) but it may never be a problem for her doing typical dog activities if she keeps fit and exercises regularly.
LP is a fairly common problem in Shibas, so it doesn't surprise me that it is present in the Kai as well. But don't take my story as a your Kai is DOOMED! sort of thing. Severe LP that requires surgery is actually not that common.
Did Toshi have another surgery?
@NavyDog - Yucca is an Akashi pup. When we imported Akashi he had the same thing, but his knees tightened up as well. It seems has been passed to a few of his pups.
We had this issue reported in Kibou's puppies too (but at a higher frequency than Akashi's puppies). This is why we didn't breed Kibou to Nori. But, in the Kibou puppies, they too tightened up by 4 months or so.
As it stands, as far as we know, we've not produced any Kai with LP. However, we did import one Kai with LP, Chibi. She has been spayed and placed in a home.
All this to say, LP appears to be an issue in all the Nihon Ken, but it ranges in frequency depending on the breed. IMHO the 10,000 foot view of the Kai breed shows a pretty limited occurrence of LP, especially when compared to the Shikoku or Shiba.
This being an Akashi sired litter too, I might expect some loose knees in pups... but not LP. Tora, your Kai's dam, has a brother who has had some knee issues too.
If you never noticed your Kai favoring a knee, or limping, or being reluctant to exercise, then I wouldn't do anything to fix the LP. It may not be severe enough to bother her.
Vets make their money finding problems with their client's dogs. That's why they ALWAYS check knees during an exam - its an easy thing to check and the result of a diagnosis is a $2000 payday for them. I wouldn't go spending any money on the issue until your dogs is showing clear problems from her LP, which may never happen.
Same logic applies with your Kai. If it's not bothering her, then don't spend the money to fix it.
ETA - Our Shikoku, Ahi, has severe LP in each knee. She was reluctant to go on walks or do anything athletic by a year old due to the pain the LP causes. There was a clear and obvious change in her behavior which lead us to see a vet.
In your case, you didn't even know about the issue till your vet pointed it out - in an exam, under specific circumstances, and with her deliberately trying to luxate your pup's knee. Who's to say that a situation will ever come up to cause her knee to luxate IRL.
Anyway, that's my opinion. I wouldn't go running out to fix something that may not even be *that* broke.
So, given my horrible experience with LP surgery and Ahi, where she has had 3 surgeries and still shows signs of pain and discomfort. I wouldn't do anything until she is clearly showing signs of pain - like doesn't want to go on a walk, is is crying from the pain. Then I'd fix it.
Also, I'd look into alternatives. They have stem cell therapy for LP now. I'd go that route before I'd do a surgery.
Something you also have to consider is if deepening the groove will actually fix it, sometimes the cause for luxating is not due to a shallow groove. If she happens to have loose tendons or an odd shaped knee cap, deeper grooves won't fix it. There's also no guarantee that having the surgery will fix everything, there's a good chance of the dog still having limited mobility and (if that's the case) a higher risk of arthritis to make up for it.
Something that I've found that really helped my joint issue pups is supplementing their diet. Glucosamine, either in pill or natural form, is a great joint lubricant and cushion builder, allowing for a more comfortable dog and reduced incidences of luxation. I have found that the natural form (cartilage, egg membrane, etc) has worked better for my pups than the pill form, ever since the switch to raw over a year ago Tikaani has only had one incident and he recovered a lot quicker than he used to.
If you are really concerned, get a second opinion at another practice and see what they say. Sometimes, like others have said, a vet will push for a surgery since it's a big money maker so will try to make the owner feel that it's a life or death situation. Take your time researching and learning before really jumping into something potentially life changing.
Could it be your pup is favoring her leg cuz your vet torqued it and it hasn't settled down yet?
Even at stage three due to an acute injury we opted to not do surgery because during the LONG, full activity restricted healing time. if they have it in both knees while one is healing they could slip the other one or it will degrade the other one faster. Our dog was 13 at the time so she's not one for being a feisty ball of energy all day and she was doped up enough on the first 2 weeks to keep her mostly off of it. Now almost 6 months after she can put weight on it, though has a noticeable limp, can climb stairs, jump onto the couch (with enough momentum) and run.
I second Brad that until this is actually affecting your pup I would wait on surgery.
Again not a medical expert, just some of our decisions we made.
2 of our Cayennes brothers have had problems with LP. The first one got the surgery and has had to go back for 2 more since. Still he seems uncomfortable running. When the other brothers developed an issue, we opted out & he's been fine so I agree with brad as well. If its not inhibiting or bothering your Kai, it may not be worth a surgery.
Sometimes, it's just incidental. Dogs can throw their knees out just like people can, and it wouldn't surprise me if the vet aggravated it by popping it out of place regardless of whether there is an underlying tendency to luxate. I'd take her to a different vet before making any drastic decisions like surgery to get another opinion on it, and if it's not bothering her much, I'd go the "supplements and watch it" route LONG before even considering surgery. Except for severe LP, I haven't heard of many people with dogs who are just active companions having issues with slightly loose knees affecting their dogs' comfort and activities too much. If you were planning on top-tier agility competition or something, it might be more concerning--but then, you'd probably have a different breed if that was what you were looking for in a dog :P
I think that the occasional loose knee is something that exists in pretty much every breed, regardless of size, but like everybody else has said--it's usually not that much of a problem until it's a serious problem, and even then, what you do about it depends on the dog and the situation.
Now if the knee result is done before the dog is 3 years old it's valid only 2 years. (Minimum age is 12months). So there has to be some reason to chance that rule to be age related.
I've had two Shibas with LP and did the surgery on one. One thing my vet told me recently is that what he's looking for in considering surgery is the tightness of cruciate ligament. What can happen in LP is it slips out and puts pressure on the CL, which can cause tears. Even that can sometimes be dealt with without surgery. But we looked at my 10 year old Shiba, who had loose knees at 8 weeks, (he is now 10 years old), and my vet said while it was clear the knee was starting to bother Toby more now, the CL was nice and tight, and he saw no reason to do surgery on a 10 year old dog who seems to have mild pain from the LP only.
Toby had much more problems with his knee as a young pup, and often did the characteristic "donkey kick" to get his knee back in place up to about 1 year of age. Then it rarely bothered him. Now, as an older, obese Shiba, it's starting to act up again, but he does not need surgery.
In comparison, my female (puppy mill) Shiba showed very loose knees, on both sides. In xrays, it was clear she had almost no groove on one side and a shallow one on the other, so she clearly had luxating patella. She tore her ACL, and at that point, we did the surgery, which including the ACL tear, was $2000 (my vet is not expensive, though). In her case, the ACL was completely torn in two! It was a very slow recovery, and she regained about 90 % range of motion (she couldn't sit after that). She was 6 when we did the surgery.
So all this information to say that probably, right now, there is nothing to do. Loose knees can go on for a very long time and may never be a problem, or may be a problem only in old age. Even actual luxating patella, with the problem with the groove in the bone, may not need surgery for a long time if at all. However, if I knew a dog had LP, I probably would not do agility with it. My vet felt part of the damage to Bel's ACL was because she was so very active, and often jumping and leaping, and the quick turns particularly put stress on an ACL that might already be weakened by LP.
so if I were you, I'd do nothing now, and then maybe have xrays done if you are still concerned to see if you do, indeed, have true LP. Then if you do, you can better assess the risk that agility might have on the dog.