Nipping

Akira is about 6 months old and loves going to daycare. Unfortunately, he's been spending a lot of time in "time out" recently because he nips at other dogs. We took him to the dog park earlier with our obedience trainer and she thought his behavior there was normal for a puppy. He does nip and once I had to pull him off a young german shepherd puppy that was just confused by all the nipping. We're not sure if the daycare just isn't good at handling the dogs or if we have a problem puppy. He's generally a pretty friendly and playful soul and not aggressive. Thoughts?

Comments

  • NK wrestle alot. Is he nipping pr face grappling? Sachi (kai) will correct other dogs with a well placed nip but will try and hug the back of their neck with her mouth as she chases them down in play
  • TK (Shikoku) often likes to "nose punch" and nip at other dogs as a way to initiate play. He can be very rough if a dog does not try to correct him. I'm with @cdenney - do you know if it's actual nipping or if it's just rough play? Can you describe when he does it and what it looks like?


    Somewhat related...
    I also wouldn't really put too much weight on how your dog does in daycare or at the dog park, IMO. Just because a dog does poorly in daycare or at a dog park necessarily mean they're a problem dog or aggressive. :) Sometimes, they can be very chaotic or poorly structured places for appropriate play, only serving to exacerbate bad behavior.

    My Shikoku accompanied me when I worked at a dog daycare -- he loved playing and he is friendly with other dogs, but he was always 500% more stressed at daycare than he is normally, which could lead to misunderstandings. I don't even try to really bring him to the park.

    My Malamute cannot be around strange dogs in a dog park or daycare environment, but does very well with familiar dogs or dogs introduced to him properly. He loves to play with other dogs, but he's just not "dog park" material.
  • Thanks cdenney and Crispy! Akira nips the hindquarters on other dogs-almost like a herding dog. He's probably just trying to initiate play, but it's an actual nip. I suspect he may also have nose punched as he's come back with a scratched up nose from someone that took offense. We'll have to keep an eye on the daycare situation. I'm glad to hear that it might not be so much the dog, well, beyond a NK tendency to play rough, as the setting.
  • We had thought about taking Kiyoshi to daycare. The evaluation process was well thought out, but it depends on who is in the room with the dogs. What they did was let him into the daycare room by himself, then slowly let the other dogs in to greet him one at a time. It went well until he got to about the 20th dog...the guy kept standing over by the door and the dogs would all hoover in that corner and Kiyoshi kept ending up in the middle of everyone and it quickly turned sour. DON'T stand in a CORNER while introducing a new dog to 20 some odd other dogs...he nipped at some and paid special attention to the other males of the group (luckily there weren't many). So he failed his evaluation and didn't get accepted into daycare for too much dominant behavior and some nipping lol And I don't consider it a bad thing. Sort of opened our eyes to the whole daycare thing...

    We had been there a couple times and passed by the daycare area before we tried it. The people that they have in the rooms weren't all that knowledgeable. If a dog got too roudy (initiated any play really), then they squirted them with a water bottle or took them away (doggy time out). So most all of the dogs just sat or laid down and chilled in a corner somewhere. If I want my dog to NOT play and just sit and lay down then I could just leave them at home lol He does great with his doggy buddys and has some good times at the dog park, depending on the other dogs.

    Daycare is a very different enviornment and like @Crispy said I wouldn't worry any over what happens in daycare. Your dog has to fit a very specific mold in order to do well in daycare, most dogs don't fit that mold, but that doesn't make them bad or problem dogs. Just a normal dog :)
  • I agree with all of the above! Athena is a very fiesty player she will jump on any dogs face (if they are low enough to the ground) and growl and bite and run away so they can chase her. Sort of like, "I just bit the hell out of you and slapped you, TAG you're it!" ... My shiba tolerates it and most pups at the dog park allow it but I try to stop the growling just because I don't want it to become an issue later on. Hades growls too but not as much as Athena. I just correct any behavior I don't like until I get tired of yelling names and just say eff it. Almost all NK I have met seem DOM but I think it's just play style .
  • @Dragonfly, that spraying thing would have turned me off of that place right then and there. I'm totally against spraying a dog for doing something wrong. Back at the husky rescue I worked for, we had a dog who was absolutely terrified of spray bottles because of his previous owner had over used one.
  • Thanks guys! We're taking Akira to be evaluated at a new daycare this weekend which is supposed to be better at handling dogs with a range of personalities. There's no point in paying for daycare (especially in Los Angeles) if he spends most of his time in time out like @Dragonfly said: he can do that at home for free. Hopefully it will go well, but if not,it sounds like he's just a dog :)
  • I actually had to pull my Shiba out of daycare because he was unfairly being put into "time outs" way more than the other pups because I was told he nipped a lot. He never hurt any of them, it was just his way of playing. I ended up ditching it because they were adamant that Sagan was "on the fast track to needing a behaviorist", etc etc. He's almost 2 now and obviously fine, but it seems some establishments are uncomfortable with NK rough-play.
  • @Dragonfly - Did you go to a CBW? It sounds a lot like where I used to work. I hated how many dogs we'd put in a group together and some of the practices the Camp Counselors used. I spent four years there - most of them spent trying to reform how the daycare operation worked. All I saw was that it was SO stressful on the dogs -and- the counselors. It's a lot easier to hate the dogs that are just rough players and "causing trouble" when you have SO MANY dogs to look after and stressed out (which just ends up causing more stress on the dogs--turning it into a vicious cycle).


    I just started sending TK to daycare again for a once-a-week thing. The facility doesn't look like much (it's a repurposed apartment building), but the staff is super knowledgeable and the capacity is very low. It feels like a comfortable place and I haven't had any problems with it. Good daycares are out there!

    My foster dog spends more time sleeping than playing, but that's ok. He's just a big lazy puppy. TK's just been there once, but I was very happy when they put him in with the "small" dog group instead of throwing him in the large dogs (which is what a lot of people want to do when they see his play style). He does 100x worse with the large dogs because he gets stressed out easily in new situations. He's much more polite with small dogs.

    @AkiratheKishu - How many days do you send him to daycare and for how long? That can have an effect on the dog's behavior while in the play area. Most dogs can only handle between 1 and 3 days a week. I like 1 or 2 days - the dogs that go for one or two days always seemed the happiest to come in and play. Some dogs did okay with more, but most really didn't.
  • @Crispy, I only take Akira 1-2 days a week on my longer work days unless we're out of town for a long weekend. My mom comes into town to sit her "granddog" if we're gone longer. He's usually there for 10 hours. Akira truly seems to love daycare (he gets super excited when he gets out of the car and recognizes the place) and comes home pooped out. Like @Rikka and their Shiba, Akira never actually hurts the other dogs, but seems to have been categorized as "that dog that nips and doesn't play well" and has been spending more and more "time outs."
  • @Akirathekishu - I would suggest if you want him to go to this specific daycare and you want him to stop nipping. Teach him. It is possible to teach a dog , even nihon ken , how to not play bite. Use the link below and apply it for biting instead of growling if possible.

    Hope this helps
  • edited February 2014
    The problem is that he may be able to learn how to play 'appropriately' in a NORMAL situation... but daycare is by no means a normal situation - and if the daycare staff doesn't want to help with training (would rather throw him in time out), then it probably won't help for daycare.

    It's a good idea, though.


    IMO, finding another place (smaller, quieter, or more understanding) is the best option if their reaction is to throw him in time out and label him a "problem".

    But coming from a high-volume daycare job, I'm a bit jaded. :)
  • You may even try to find a small groomer that does daycare. Usually groomers understand dog behavior better then doggie daycare/camps because those daycare a hire anyone who likes dogs where as groomers are experienced handlers
  • Your trainer is another option, if they offer it.

    Kouda spends the day with our trainer a few times a month. She does boarding for clients and has watched him before when we travel. She knows his quirks and understands our interest in healthy socialization. There are a few regulars as well as her own 2 dogs, and she manages interactions with new dogs carefully. And we can tell he enjoys it when he can't wait to get in the door!
  • @Shikoku, thanks for the link, it looks like good training advice, though like @Crispy commented, getting the daycare staff to follow suit doesn't seem likely at our current place. Our trainer does housecalls so she's not home enough to do boarding unfortunately, though a groomer may be a good idea @NavyDog if our interview doesn't go well tomorrow at the new potential daycare. Hopefully, Akira will love the place and vice versa!
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