Food agression! Need help :(
Today I got some raw bones for Tajo. It was the first time i fed him raw bones, and the unxpected happened...
He started growling at me from a distance of 3 meters. He put the bones between his legs, head down, tail up in i really tense position... He was givin me direct eye contact, he was not showing his teeth but the growling was really intense and i had the feeling that if i came closer he would snap a bite
He seemed like an other dog to me, not mine.
I have never had problems with resource guarding with Tajo, i can litterally put my hand inside his kibble bowl while he is eating. Not even one problem with toys or industrial bones. But the first time i tried feeding him raw bones he was totally transformed to a beast. I am so worried about this behavior and feeling really sad right now.
Any help or suggestion is very helpful for me...
He started growling at me from a distance of 3 meters. He put the bones between his legs, head down, tail up in i really tense position... He was givin me direct eye contact, he was not showing his teeth but the growling was really intense and i had the feeling that if i came closer he would snap a bite
He seemed like an other dog to me, not mine. I have never had problems with resource guarding with Tajo, i can litterally put my hand inside his kibble bowl while he is eating. Not even one problem with toys or industrial bones. But the first time i tried feeding him raw bones he was totally transformed to a beast. I am so worried about this behavior and feeling really sad right now.
Any help or suggestion is very helpful for me...
Comments
Weigh the importance of giving him these raw bones. Since he is otherwise not a guarder, it is reasonable to just not give him these and live happily ever after- which is what Id suggest. If however it is important to you that he have these, then you need to back way up and do some important training. My sister has a resource guarder dog, who will guard high-value items (growling, charging, biting) so as part of his management and training she stopped giving him the "worst offender" items- objects that took time to work on. Other less valued items, she made a Team Effort- "we will sit together and I will hold this for you while you chew it and when you stop and look at me, i give you a tiny cheese. I will NEVER steal your stuff."
she learned that these Hi-value objects actually really stressed him out, and he would become very anxious when offered a long-lasting treat to enjoy. He didnt 'enjoy' it- it troubled him - even though she NEVER would toy with his stuff or try to prove a point taking stuff away etc. He just had a threshold for object value and she chose to not put him in position to get to that point anymore.
Because they are important commands and dogs pick up things they HAVE to drop (and not swallow), she trained him "drop it" and "leave it" with trading him hi-value FAST eating treats (cheese) and never gave him things like bully sticks, bones again. He can enjoy a stuffed kong in his crate. The dog is not cured of resource guarding, if given a bully stick he'd probably growl and snap- maybe not as bad as before but its just not worth it when he's perfectly wonderful without crossing an unnecessary threshold.
Should you decide to continue giving him the bones, make him work for it. If you're comfortable and trust him enough, hold it in your hand while he chews on it. My experience with Yoshi is that he sometimes prefers me to hold it while he chews.
Hope this helps or sparks some ideas on how to approach the situation. Good luck and keep us posted.
She eats a raw diet and is not possessive over any of the food or bones except wings. For some reason with wings she gets possesive and has growled to warn us off when getting close to her. Any other bone she doesn't mind you coming near even taking it away isn't a problem it is only wings. To over come this we don't give her wings very often and at first when we did after her initial possessiveness we tried holding the wing when she first began to eat it and she was fine when ever we did that although it's not ideal to have to do it all the time. This is why we manily feed necks and carcases now as she does not guard them at all. I do try to give her space when eating bones too because I don't want her to eat them too quickly. If at any point she gives a signal that she is going to guard the bone we alter the routine of how we feed them e.g what kind of bone, put on the floor or handed to her etc
It was upsetting at first but then I came to realise that this was high value to her and I had to try not take it personally in order to move forward. What kind of bone did you feed him? Would you be open to trying a different kind of bone to see if the reaction is the same?
Maybe your previous history of sticking your hand in his food bowl gave Tajo reason to think you might mess with his bone - and while he doesn't care about kibble, the bone is obviously a higher value item to him. He's right to be worried based on past experiences.
Unless it will sicken the dog, I never take edible things away or out of my dogs' mouths. If I screw up and they get something they shouldn't (eg. steal my sandwich, counter surfing unattended, etc) that is my fault. Taking it away wont salvage the food so people can eat it, nor would it teach the dog anything other than to be faster and sneaker and more protective the next time.
If I have to take something away (edible or not) I always offer a higher value reward in trade, and I try to get them to drop it if possible if not I give them the trade item right after.
@WhiteGC8 i always make Tajo work for his meal, I did this since he was a puppy. Usually i ask him to do 2 or 3 tricks before i give him his meal.
@StefJackUk I fed him chopped raw cow bones. I will try to feed him some row chicken meat or cow meat. It was surprising for me to see him growl when i was 3 meters far away from him.
@PoeticDragon I never thought it this way, and maybe as you are pointing out this may be the reason why i am having this "surprise" right now. I always thought that touching his food while he is eating will make him feel more confident about me being around while he is eating. However i practiced this method constantly when he was a puppy, but for the last recent months I just tried it very rarely, just to confirm (in my wrong mindset) that everything is ok.
Thank you very much for the suggestions guys. I really appreciate it!
She suggested sort of "flooding" his environment with that thing and he'll get used to it and think "meh" about it. Sophia Yin believes that desensitizing your dog against those things he guards against is a lot better than to stop giving him that thing, since in the future when they are given that thing they will guard that resource again.
A common cry in circles of dogdom is "you need to TRAIN it, not just MANAGE it" -as if managing is a weaker, cop-out option. It is NOT, and this attitude causes a great deal of guilt and stress to owners dealing with difficult behavior issues. Sure, there are people who attempt a band-aid solution and rely on 'tools' such as different kinds of collars rather than train the dog not to pull, etc. but I don't see that here.
I think since Tajo presents with no other problems and doesn't NEED to have raw bones, just don't give the raw bones. Think about dogs placed for adoption: the rescue may evaluate them as "not good with cats" and will place them in a home with no cats, rather than train the dog to be tolerant of cats (if possible), or place the dog in a home with cats where the owner says "I'll find a trainer and work my new dog on being nice to the cats."
It's a very important question to ask with dog behavior problems, manage whats appropriate to manage, and train what has to be trained- "Does he NEED to learn to tolerate this person/situation/object? Can we walk the other way, feed a different treat, or put him in his crate in another room with a treat when that one scary friend he is afraid of and who insists on patting his head like a basketball comes over?" Then its fine to manage, don't worry about it. When the stimulus is unavoidable, then you need to dig into counter-conditioning step by step and with good timing and kindness and work on it, but in this case, I think we can just take it as information that Tajo is a good dog and tolerant, but even he has a line that makes him uncomfortable, and now we know where it is and fortunately it is easy to avoid it.
Then he can get to the phase of having a spent bone and it becoming a boring piece of environment. If he wants out of the crate or kennel, he has to leave the bone behind. Might require some trading with soft, faster treats or even a new bone for him to realize that the old bone has to be dropped first though.
I'm at the same point you are at where I need to choose that we not feed them any more and hope this doesn't flare up with some other food/item for her or attempt to work through it. Since she loveeesss them so much I want her to have them as a special treat in which case maybe I need to have her eat it where I am always present, or perhaps in a room by herself where Nikki and I am not present. Definitely food for thought, and a choice that needs to be made according to your environment. But in the long run, what will make you happier and Tajo happier?
**Edited to mention: I think part of her stress is that our neighborhood is covered with old cooked chicken bones I don't know why and so her leave it command has become something of a struggle between us. I'm thinking if I am more actively aware of her picking things up and asking her to drop and then treat the stinky dry thing that she might have less anxiety about me taking this treat from her. This is my fault as a her owner and trainer for not putting this together before and for letting our drop command become something that she is nervous about.**
It requires a lot of trust-exercises and delayed gratifications. It's a lot of work though.
Most people will tell you not to give the high-value items to the dog; but that wasn't an option for him since I needed to be able to get the bird or whatever game from him.
For instance to get him to give up the bird, I have to tie him to a tree, grab the bird then gut it to give him the innards. After a few times, he waits for me to give him the innards. In this scenario, the innards is his and his alone and no one is permitted to intervene or interrupt him until he's done eating.
With raw bones, that was problematic early on. But basically, he had to learn that just because I was taking it away doesn't mean I was taking it away permanently. At first, I started with small bones which he finished quickly within 5 seconds and got him used to my presence in the room, then I started giving him bigger pieces once he got comfortable, and gradually reducing my proxy to him. Then I started off very, very gradually with taking it away for 5-seconds then give it back to him to finish it off, then 10-seconds,, then 30-seconds,, then a minute and so on. This took about maybe... 3-6 months? One cannot do it more than once or twice a day, or the dog becomes paranoid about his possession being taken away.
I would not suggest using the same method as I do because if you and I have different ideas of how a dog behave, then communication is not effective. Chances of getting bitten is very real, and a dog should not be pushed to the limit. The last thing anyone want is to set up the dog for failure. Especially since if he is already growling at the mere presence of a human in the room. It would be counter-productive to push him.
Honestly, I suggest going through an experienced positive-reinforcement trainer who knows how to deal with aggressive or defensive dogs. While there are many who claim this, there are not so many who actually know what they are doing.
Also, I would suggest to check out books on resource-guarding such as Jean Donaldson or Sophia Yin.
Then he started eating raw ( bones of all kinds, innards etc ) and became extremely picky about his food, so much so that at times he'll turn away a chicken drum stick, or a pork chop and wait for something else he'd rather eat. I'm not sure if motivations change in dogs at different stages in life, but he's definately not as protective of his bones anymore (or anything, toys, objects etc. for that matter).
I also see it with things like treats - Saigo gets a new treat and he'll absolutely go CRAZY for it. Then after about a week of giving him that same treat, he gets bored and soon he doesn't care about it anymore. I think dogs (at least mine) do get bored of things after awhile, even if initally it is a high-value item. Of course, not all dogs are the same, and I've only had the experience of knowing one dog
in case of Working with Bella and raw once she was comfortable I'd give her treat for dropping it and leaving the item.
I'd then give back the chicken quarter.
Bella resource guarded her raw meals at first she was tense, growled. I worked with her slowly over time she improved. Now I can be nearby reading book or doing yard work etc. She doesn't mind me and will drop it and come if I ask her to. Coarse she can finish eating after she gets treat for coming to me.
I'm not dog trainer so things I did with Bella might not work for you. Each dog is different.
Bella thinks canned food or cooked is high value too, but she only guarded those from Dink our older dog who would try to take her food if allowed. We usually had Dink fed in closed door so both could eat in peace.
Saya only resource guarded from our cat he rubbed up against her all friendly, but saya didn't think it was fine. she growled. I removed the cat as he was dumb and didn't know growling means back off.
I'm glad Saya warns and give plenty of time for cat to leave sadly he didn't get it so I did it for him.
Saya is totally fine with me and my mom.
I do think it is important to work on drop it and leave it commands so if you encounter a cooked bone on streets it might help. My neighbor in Louisiana would always have popeyes chicken bones all over the place it was annoying. My past dogs had no leave it or drop it training I didn't know about it till later.
This book might be helpful even if you don't plan to give raw bone again still good to learn about working with resource guarding.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0970562942
My Shiba, Bootz, use to be like this when I first introduced her to bullysticks. She was on a kibble diet at the time. She did the exact same thing, lowered head growled, even lunged at the area around her bullystick. Long story short, It took a lot of patience and training. I reinforced the "leave it" and slowly took away her bullystick, but reward her with a different treat, a pat on the head, then return the bullystick. Now that she's on a half kibble/half raw diet, she's confident and comfortable. My guests can walk by her while she's eating her raw meal, and there will be no guarding what-so-ever.
I agree with @PoeticDragon never good to mess with a dogs bowl. Not only does it trigger resource guarding, but in some cases, it will cause the dog to inhale their food as they feel like it might be taken away any second.
Holding the item while the dog eats it, can be a good way to lessen the stress-inducing nature of the item as a dog who is sharing with you is much less likely to be aggressive than if he has sole possession of the item.
Also, dropping a high-value treat periodically near the dog or into his bowl as he's eating or munching on a longer lasting item can help head-off guarding as they recognize your presence to mean that good things are coming, not that their item is getting taken away. This should not be done with the item that he's already guarding until you've done several hundred repetitions with items he doesn't care about. You want to see him wagging his tail, looking up at you expectantly and overall joyful at your presence because he *knows* it means good things are coming.
You can also work on Trading, offer them a high-value treat as they are chewing on something, if they drop the bone and take the treat, you can grab the bone and then give it back to them when they are done with the treat. In this way, you show that taking is not always forever. If they don't go for the high-value treat, it means it's not high value enough relative to what they have. Just adjust what they are chewing or the treat you are giving. You can even use two long-lasting chews. Such as a bully stick and rawhide. Give the rawhide, hold out the bully stick, when the dog goes for the bully stick keep ahold of it and let him chew on it and take the rawhide with your other hand. Then give the rawhide back and pull the bully stick away. Since you have a hand on it, they should see it as yours anyway. Repeat a few times. If you experience guarding or growling or anything worrisome during this phase, you're probably using something too high-value. You want it to become a game or at least routine to give up what they have for something else.
As @WrylyBrindle said, you want to start low value and work your way up, if you want to work this at all. We are constantly choosing "manage" over "training". Which things we train and which things we manage are up to the individual person and dog and often there is a mixture of the two. I'm perfectly happy letting Hanzo up on the couch, but not on the counter. I have a trained "Off" command that tells him to get down if he puts his paws up there or onto the coffee table, but I also don't leave him alone with food on the counter or table because I choose not to spend time proofing that when I can just put edibles out of his reach.
I don't feel bad about management because I don't own a robot, I live with a dog and I want him to make good decisions on his own, not have to micro-manage every little thing. I just use management to stack the decision-making deck in my favor. I do this because I'm the one with thumbs and the larger frontal lobe so I'm able to play out the possible future in my head and open all the doors. One such future is that if I leave Meg (my border collie/lab mix) alone with a tray full of cooling croissants on the counter, she will scarf them all down...whole.
This can be a tough one because a wagging tail does not necessarily mean the dog is being joyful. In resource guarding stiff posture is classically a warning sign , however, not always : / You don’t want to be caught off guard by mixed signals. Know your dog. Work with low value items and don’t monkey around too much with handling food that is super high value to trigger a resource "mine mine mine" outburst. It's often beneficial to keep a journal to score the value items so you have a scale to go by when working on trades. Sometimes dogs transfer value so be aware of that as well.
Honestly there a lot of dogs that have a flipped switch with raw bones. Often it is worse when they don’t really know what to do with the item and learning or attempting to figure out how to manipulate it. Sharing works with some by holding food but not always and not all dogs see that as helping them out. Be cautious about giving yourself enough space and an out, if in doubt contact a behaviorist to help you.
Snf
Just to be clear, that sentence was meant to be taken as a whole, meaning that *assuming* you know what happy/joyful is in your dog, you want them to be that when you visit them while eating. Maybe I could have said "wagging his butt, with a loose and relaxed stance and soft eyes", but even then since we're humans speaking a different language than the dog it's possible to interpret incorrectly what our dog is saying to us.
Use your best judgement and don't push it. Resource guarding can be some of the easiest "aggression" to correct, but it has to be done right to be done safely.
I have an update with Tajo, and now i can confirm that i have a general problem with raw meat. I tried to give him a little bit of chicken and he started growling again. This time it was only when i got closer to him. I tried not to stress him and i moved away.
The fact that i always gave him kibble means that the resource guarding problem was always there with the raw food, but kibble was not enough high value to him. I started offering him a little bit of cheese since he loves it and as a start it looks promising, he left the chicken and responded to my sit command for the cheese.
I have to do all the training/management by my self because where I leave there is no positive reinforcement trainer, all of them use Cesar Millan style
I also ordered "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" as Saya suggested and i will go on following the instructions there.
Thank you very much guys, and i will keep you updated.
You also may want to look at a few other behaviorists as well to get some well rounded points of view before you begin. Overall you should see consistencies in the advice.
Sophia yin http://drsophiayin.com/videos/entry/ben_guards_the_food_bowl?/resources/video_full/ben_guards_the_food_bowland
Grisha Stewart http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/resource-guarding/.
Patricia McConnell http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/resource-guarding-treatment-and-prevention
Carol Byrnes http://pugalug.com/forums/index.php?topic=7844.0;wap2
(She also had a really great website call Diamonds in the Ruff).
Good luck
Snf
If you feed him more raw, he might not see it as a high valued item. Also, since he responded to your command with cheese, that is a good sign. You can practice and slowly gain his trust around "high valued items"
Anyway, Pavel found a dead deer. However, he would not let me near the carcass to inspect to see if the deer died of old age, starvation, prions or killed by coyotes slash wolves. It would had been nice to be able to take a look at it so it can be determined if there is a large predator in the area.
So, we had to get back to the car. Since he wouldn't let it go, the deer came along. At a particular junction, it was time to leash up since he could easily run into a car. Problem is he growled when I hovered over his neck, so I had to clip his leash from the side where it's not so threatening. Again, he could had bitten me here; but I yielded to his warning signs.
So, we walked back to the car and he got tied up to a post while figuring out what to do. The most intuitive thing to do would be to pull him away from the deer; however that would only cause negative reinforcement and the next time he finds a dead animal, he might not even be courteous enough to give me a warning sign.
Notice I can touch him while he is calm am not being threatened. But if I apply tension to his leash, he becomes defensive. This is cue not to push him closer to his aggression threshold.
Luckily, there were stinky deli-meat in the car. So, a person nearby was asked to take over the camera while I approached the dog with a pork sausage. Immediately, he ran toward me and forgot about the deer. So, the opportunity was used to take the leash off the post and lure him toward the car.
As an reward, he got to eat the whole tray in the crate.
A few more practices, and he shouldn't guard the carcass anymore.