Questions About Shikoku?

I've been looking through all the pages of the forum and definitely considering saving up to buy a Shikoku in the next couple of years. I see I may have to get a puppy shipped since their isn't any breeder fairly close to Texas. A Kai is the other option, but mainly a Shikoku because of the size and appearance. Shiloh my pugxcairn may be rehomed to go live with my sister and her daughter, they want a dog but we all know it would end up probably me training it, and my sister isn't the most diligent, Shiloh who is already familiar with them, fairly well trained and great with my niece would be the perfect starter dog for them, the only thing they would have to be careful with is that he can't be in large dog groups since it scares him which we will be working on this summer. That leaves the Dutch ShepherdxShar-pei Kumatora all lonesome.

So I'm wondering how much activity does a Shikoku require on a daily basis? I love biking with my dogs so I hope the Shikoku is open for a good biking adventure as well.

What is a low drive shikoku like compared to a high drive Shikoku? Kuma I have to say is right in the middle, leaning towards high drive, I think because of her shelter background she is a bit more reserved but she really can have boundless energy when she shows it. Shes stubborn but incredibly food driven which makes teaching her fun, she hates repitition, so once the voice command is added its time to shake it up or she'll get bored very quickly.

How well do Shikoku's do in apartments? This may change because were maybe moving to a house soon but always good to consider.

What fun games do you do to exercise your Shikoku's prey drive? Kuma we play fetch, I also go an acquire roadkill animal tails to attach to a stick and rope and let her chase that around, I try to come up with other games, hoping to acquire some canvas dummies for retrieve training.

What brands of dog foods do you feed your Shikoku? I try to do a monthly rotation with the dogs now of Merrick Grain Free and Dr.Tim's Kinesis Grain Free, hoping to add Orijen or Evo to their diet. Kuma gets also egg in her meals frequently as well as raw chicken legs, breasts or livers. I was reading and saw that Shikoku's need more fish in their diets than most dogs.

Harness, normal collar or training collar for Shikoku? Kuma wears a martingale collar most of the time, sometimes I double up with a wide padded collar and the choke to give her an idea what she may possibly be wearing once I can trust her a bit more around small animals. Shiloh wears a fleece - padded hemp harness because of his pug heritage it keeps the risks of throat damage low and its soft so when he pulls it doesn't dig into him.

I think i had more but these are what I can remember right now, I hope you don't mind the questions and personal commentary, but i feel its good to share what I do to see what you would recommend need to change or would the dog would love joining in on that.
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Comments

  • I don't have a ton of experience with either the kai or shikoku but the best advice I got was to meet the breeds in person before even considering one or the other! They have some very strong traits that I think are best discovered in person :)
  • I don't have a ton of experience with either the kai or shikoku but the best advice I got was to meet the breeds in person before even considering one or the other! They have some very strong traits that I think are best discovered in person :)
    I definitely plan meeting them in person, but asking questions until I have the chance is most I can do haha.
  • Well, I can only speak from experience with my 7 month old Shikoku but he is VERY high drive. We exercise everyday, walk in the morning after he wakes up, mid-day play in the courtyard or walk to the beach/park, then before bed we go for another very long walk and play fetch. That gets him tired out and then he'll sleep almost till noon some days. I can get up in the morning, go through my whole routine, and he'll go back to sleep lol Its quite funny actually.

    But if I don't keep up he gets very moody and antsy. He'll throw a fit pretty much..

    If I'm having a day where I feel exceptionally lazy or the weathers bad then we do training inside. The mental aspect of training and learning can be just as exhausting as physically doing something. So he'll sleep a lot after a good training session too. Although there are some days when I could work him all day long and he's still fussy. Like a couple weeks ago when we went to DC and walked at least 5 miles, saw people, other dogs, practiced training, and spent 6 hours outside...he wasn't a bit tired. In fact we went to a baseball game later that night and I spent the whole time walking him, he just wouldn't settle. Crashed later that night but still...

    He has a really high prey drive. I use a lunge whip (for horses) and tie some animal hide (rabbit, boar, and deer so far) to the very end and practice chasing it, catching and release. Sort of like you'd lunge a horse,its good training. We're also training for barn hunt, which he's a natural at.

    Hope that helps some...
  • I am honestly not sure that I have ever met a low-drive Shikoku. Everyone that I have ever met has been very much a high-drive dog, but I like that in a dog, so... :)

    And I second the advice to meet some Shikoku (and Kai) before you decide which breed is best for you and your situation, especially since you have other dogs to take into consideration.
  • @Knichtus you should see if anyone has a shikoku in your area :) I had to travel an hour or two but it was worth a weekend trip! I know a few people on here have a smaller dog and a shikoku or kai and I know a few others off this forum who live in a condo with a shikoku or kai. I can't tell you if that is easy but I know that some manage to do it!
    I have met some lower drive shikoku but even the low drive is still more than your normal bird chasing dog!
    I will hopefully be bringing home a shikoku soon so I can try and answer more of those questions later on! In the meantime you should try and set up meet and greets with people on here :)
  • I can't say anything about Shikoku but since you mentioned interest in Kai, I will give you what I've experienced so far with Yucca. We were in a small 1 bdroom townhome ( only recently moved to a 3 bdroom house) and she did perfectly fine In it. It was open concept so had space for her to play but she mostly benefitted from my husband and I being active people. When she was younger she needed to get plenty of play/exercise time but she has calmed down significantly since her first heat. We take her hiking and boar hunting. Soon we will try out agility, lure coursing and possibly barn hunt. Haven't tried biking with her but with her size I think she's be perfect for it. She has a high prey drive, keeping vigilant watch over her yard, but not so high that she will become obsessed like my Amstaff Cayenne. Once cayenne sees a squirrel, she will obsessively search for more & will not stop til she finds one. My dogs eat Orijin though since Yucca has slowed down a bit, we may start mixing orijin and merricks grain free. Hope you get the chance to meet one or both of these breeds
  • edited April 2014
    have you already been to the North American Shikoku Club's website? There's a lot of good info there. http://www.shikokuclub.org

    The biggest issues prospective shikoku owners need to consider are social ones and health ones. There arent that many shikokus, so learn about the joint and neurological problems in the breed- dig around the forum under the shikoku heading and learn about specific adult dogs.

    If you are several years out from buying one, what dog food to get or collar to buy is far less urgent than "can I live for 12 years with a dog that's commonly a punk to other dogs once he/she matures? Exactly *how* are they punkasses and what practices work best to minimize conflicts? Which individuals produce the healthiest pups? Which parents are good social ambassadors? How does my existing dog react to button-pushy, in-your-face dogs? and would she like a roommate 24/7 with that personality?"

    There are some really great shikoku owners here and some very well trained shikoku, but most experienced owners will not deny that many in the breed tend to be rude with other dogs, staring/provocative and have little->no respect for personal space- which may or may not be part of your (or your current dog's) picture of what an enjoyable multidog life will be like, but should not be glossed over. Much to read! :)

    Definitely put in the effort/driving to meet some out in the world. It's one thing to meet them in their home on the couch- but get as much of the total picture as you can. Bring Kumatora to meet them, too. Shikoku breeders and owners don't say "they aren't for everyone" to be snobs, they fully know that most aspiring dog owners will find them to be a more high-maintenance experience socially than what most people find relaxing and enjoyable.
  • I will say I give props to all Shikoku owners. It's not an easy breed to own and honestly shouldn't be chosen due to looks. I'm in total agreement with Chrystal's post above.
  • edited April 2014
    I agree 100% with the post above. Shikoku IMO can't be taught to get along. It's like adopting a child who you know will start fights and not listen. I will post vids of my puppy causing chaos at the dog park. Also agreed. Meet a shikoku when they are interacting with other dogs.

    That's your best bet.
  • Yup, yup, and yup. Totally agree with Chystal ( @WrylyBrindle ) and tjbart17. Please research and don't pick the breed based on looks. Shikokus are a very different type of dog and they're kind of neurotic... Not a lot of people like that and let alone can or know how to deal with it. Please meet them in person before you buy one.

    As for "low-drive shikoku"... what is that and where can I find one? lol
  • @Shikoku Haha my dog causes alot of chaos at the dog park as well, shes very NOISY when playing with other dogs and I have to watch her alot since she's learning that maybe barking is not the way to go, but still wants to get all into a dogs face and harass them. However a dog who is also very vocal and plays rough she does really well with.

    @Hinata23 The main reason why I wanted the Shikoku for size was because it be a bit more equal as a possible bikejor companion (Since a near 60 pound mutt and [on average] 40 pound kai is going to be rather unbalanced, I'm sure they could do well but i prefer for the dogs to be closer to size ) appearance wise the seemed more agile but still stocky, which would balance out with a small dog-tank like kuma. They are pretty but for me appearance is more so the functional appearance of the dog. I plan on maybe next summer to do some driving around a meeting them in person.

    @WrylyBrindle I've actually been reading that site religiously for awhile, I have it bookmarked because I always go back and read it and look up as much as i could. Before I even got kuma I spent about 6 months researching dog food, training, toys, and active dogs. I love researching so don't worry about that.
  • Chrystal and Tara are right, IMO.
    I am my Shikoku's second home. I got TK a year ago last February.

    First, I want to say that I love my dog. He's a perfect companion for me and my boyfriend. He loves my friends and my family. He's a great trail dog with lots of drive to work and a lot of brains to figure things out.

    Unfortunately, he has a lot of drive to work and a lot of brains to figure things out. :p

    TK came to me reactive. I think most Shikoku are pretty reactive/neurotic. TK is dog reactive, but he's also reactive toward human hands. He hates strange hands coming near him and WILL bite someone if they walk up to him in the street or try to pet him. The thing I notice about TK - and I think, most Shikoku - are that he is frenetic. Super frenetic.

    Now for your questions, specifically. :)

    So I'm wondering how much activity does a Shikoku require on a daily basis?
    I take TK for ~3-5 miles every day in addition to his two specific bathroom times and his walk to and from my car in the morning and at night when I have to park it (I live in a city with a street parking ban and I don't have a parking spot at my building).

    What is a low drive Shikoku like compared to a high drive Shikoku?
    I haven't really experienced the same scope of drive as other Shikoku owners, so I'm not sure how to answer this question. My other dog is a Malamute, so he's pretty high-drive. I wouldn't say he's as frenetic about expressing himself as TK is, but they both like to go after the same things--they just have a different way of expressing it. London (Malamute) is extremely focused and set, but deliberate in every action he makes. TK (Shikoku) is a wild child if he sees something he wants. He doesn't know how to express himself so he'll snarl and whine and cry and do back flips until he figures it out.

    How well do Shikoku's do in apartments?
    We live in 2 bedroom apartment on the third floor of a very old house. TK and London are alone in the apartment for 6 hours, tops, by themselves, and do okay. I'm a full time student, so they usually aren't alone frequently for that long, but they do just fine. They're relatively low-energy in the house, but their behavior suffers if they do not get outside time and exercise.

    What fun games do you do to exercise your Shikoku's prey drive?
    I play fetch, tug, and wrestle with TK. I'd like to do "sporting" events like barn hunt and lure coursing, but because of TK's behavior issues, I don't think he is ready for that step yet.

    What brands of dog foods do you feed your Shikoku?
    Earthborn's Coastal Catch is my primary kibble. I alternate Acana and Orijen formulas when I can.

    Harness, normal collar or training collar for Shikoku?
    I use a harness and a collar on TK. He has a seatbelt harness for the car, a head harness for events to help bring him calm, and a collar as our standard.


    One other thing to think of is if you're getting a Shikoku for size, my male Shikoku is the same size as @WrylyBrindle's male Kai. Her Kai, from what I understand, is rather large, but Peggy (TK's breeder) said TK was pretty big (tall?) himself. TK's only about 40 pounds and 21" tall at the shoulder. If you're looking for something comparative to your girl, it seems rare to have a Shikoku that large.

    I did meet Yamato, who was quite a bit larger than TK, but I have never seen a Shikoku near as big as that.
  • Yeah, size can change depending on the dog. My male kai is 54 or more, a lot bigger than most Shikoku. It really depends.
  • @Crispy Thankyou for the answers! Gives me a better scope of the breed, and thanks for telling me the size as well, I was looking at weight on different sites that on average they are 40-50 lbs which is what i was going on. And for Kais it was 30-40 at some places. Kuma was thinking was actually going to be in their size range when we got her, but she just sprouted to being much bigger than what we expected and super muscular for her size. However if yours does real well with a malamute then thats good to know. I'm also a student.
  • This thread has been really helpful so far, I'm copying the conversation into a word document. Thank you everyone!
  • TK does well with familiar dogs. He isn't a fighter. He reacts before he knows what he's doing - that's where the issue comes in with other dogs; it's not that he's intentionally malicious, it's that his code of conduct isn't the same as other dogs'. :)

    He tends to be very pushy with other dogs and will push and push until they tell him off. When I was the trainer with the daycare I used to work at, he would come to work with me. He did well there, but only because I was able to give him many breaks to calm down and be away from the dogs before things got too out of hand.

    His favorite moves are tail-pulling and butt-checking, lol. He gets along well with familiar dogs - mostly because they've had a chance to get used to HIM and not the other way around.

    My Malamute is aggressive with strange dogs because he tolerates no rudeness. My Shikoku is VERY rude and incapable of polite interaction. He's an acquired taste for most dogs... and people. :p

    London and TK did well after I initially introduced them (which was slow-going because I didn't know TK yet and knew London's idiosyncrasies), but there was a long period of several months where we would see a scrap or argument every other day - usually spurred on by my Malamute's distrust and TK's nervousness or rudeness.

    If you poke around my threads, you'll see more about TK (by clicking on my name and looking at my discussions), if you want to read more on his behavior.
  • I agree that they're very much punkasses. And just because they might be more social as a puppy doesn't mean that's how they'll stay. I know I use to take kiyoshi to the dp all the time but now we don't go at all. Once his hormones started kicking in it made things more difficult. He's good with most females but if a male approaches it's game over.

    He's not 'aggressive' but he will try and dominate them, if they don't oblige and submit then he will try and force it to assert himself. There's a fine line between dominance and aggression, a lot of people can't differentiate between the two. I constantly have to tell people with other dogs to back away from him, I don't want him hurt (by challenging the wrong dog), or for their dog to get hurt should they offend him in any way. It can be a lot to handle sometimes and I know a lot of people get put off when I tell them not to bring they're dog up to him but..it is what it is. I've been especially cautious of other dogs since he got attacked. I don't let anyone approach us unless I know them and they're dog.

    He use to get upset and snippy if another dog didn't let him sniff their butt..we worked on it and he now takes no for an answer when it comes to butt sniffing but that took work. And if I didn't police him for it he'd prob still do it.

    They're also very rough in their play. Lots of biting, mouthing, hair/skin pulling, and body slamming/pouncing. My 7 month old is 41 lbs at the moment, which I think is a good size.
  • edited April 2014
    My male kai was 44.5 lbs at last vet visit in March. His neck is very thick and muscular, and his collar is just shy of the same circumference comfortably buckled as that of my 65 lb mutts'. He is about knee-high at the shoulder and is probably one of the most rigorously exercised kai we know by name. He is on the large size for kai, but not the largest I know- his half brother Goro is a bit bigger and Tara's Koda I think is the biggest?

    The UKC kais (like Koda) tend to run larger, but I think Koda isnt much more than 50. If you are looking for 60 lbs, you are in JA territory for NK, but if your priority is to match Kuma's size and bikejor with them- Beth has a racingline husky (Titan) that she's super happy with @Calia, he loves to bike and is socially wonderful with people and dogs! He's a lean machine. She also has a shikoku (3 year old Miyu) but doesnt bike with her because her hips are not cut out for that intense exercise.

    All the medium NK are smaller IRL than they look and there's a lot of overlap. My female kai is 28 lbs, and there are kaigirls smaller than her. The breeds show sexual dimorphism- girly girls and manly men!
  • From my experience seeing several Shikoku at the last Nippo and knowing several kai. With the exception of Goro, Koda and Matsu whom are king kais your average female kai is around 32 ish lbs and the males near 40 and Shikoku are not that much larger. I would say on the heavy end of Shikoku you might hit 50.

    These are numbers based on my experiences but people who breed or have both like Shigeru or Brad could tell you more.
  • Sorry, I have nothing to add about the Shikoku, but I just wanted to say I love @WrylyBrindle 's description of them: a more high-maintenance experience socially. I saw that and thought "a more high-maintenance social experience"? That sounds like Meitou (my Hokkaido)!

    /End threadjack
  • If bikejoring is something you want to do with your NK, then weight isn't really the only factor you should be considering, as even in husky kennels they will have 40lb huskies running with 60+lb ones, and some freighting kennels will even have a few 70+lb Malamutes as well. Even so, with the right type of training management (and good brakes) even a 20lb shiba can recreationally bikejor alongside a pair of 50+lb huskies.

    I feel that any healthy NK would be fine with recreational mushing, but don't expect to be competitive with them or even keep up with a recreational husky team. These are hunting breeds after all, so their prey drive could get in the way and be potentially dangerous during a run. I would also avoid using a neck line with most NK (you might get away with it with a Kai) and I'd imagine it could cause them some frustration and encourage redirected reactivity.
  • @Calia knows her bikejoring stuff! ;)
  • Alright sorry for being gone I had finals and other things to do, like 2 hour trips to the dog park haha. But checking back on this, thanks for the information everyone! This has been very informative, I will hopefully be able to visit or meet with some Shikoku's hopefully by next year or so as long as time allows.

    Also I hope this helps any new members who are looking at the forum, I've been watching videos on Shikoku's, as many as I can while reading up on them so I really think I want one. However the other dog choices are Australian Cattle Dog, Dutch Shepherd, Working Line Siberian Husky, Working Line German Shepherd Dog, Catahoula Cur and Belgian Malinois. All my dog choices are dogs that a fairly driven, and are active.

    But once again, thank you all!
  • edited May 2014
    I have a Shiba, Kai, Chihuahua, and a cat. We lived in our 2 bedroom apartment for almost a year before finally getting a house here recently. I will say that it can be done and everyone can be happy, but I'll give you a few pointers that I learned from experience.

    Walks are vital, but so are runs. I'm not much of a runner but I had to jog both of my big girls around our large courtyard at least once a day in addition to about 3 long walks every day.
    Boredom is rampant. Don't leave anything out unless it is for the dogs. Shelby, my Kai, would pull things into her kennel at night and absolutely destroy them. Make sure you have toys that stimulate them, especially on really cold or rainy days.
    Make sure they each have their own space. I use kennels at night and for feeding, but there are dog beds all over my house. The cat has a kitty tree that he lives in most of the time, even in our house.
    Make sure your management knows to tell you well in advance before coming in your apartment for anything or at least calling you beforehand in an emergency. Our dogs are good, but the Shiba is a runner and Shelby can be intimidating to someone who has never seen a Kai before. I had to make sure I knew exactly what day the bug guy was coming so they could be kenneled.

    These were some things I didn't think about at first, but had to learn as we went along. I hope it helps!
  • @Myabee09 Thank you very much! Also since you did jogging I was wondering what pace did you start out with when it comes to both dogs? I know the feeling about that when it comes to dog boredom, we get as many toys for the dogs to play with and even make some, Kuma still however likes to go after her chuck-its (indoor and outdoor) and try to wear them down haha.
  • edited May 2014
    I just kind of jogged at whatever pace they wanted. Mya is a runner for sure, so when she would pull me I knew to start jogging and as long as the leash was loose, that's how fast I would go. I think she knows I'm not the greatest runner so she wouldn't go too fast. It's pretty much the same with Shelby. And they start slowing down when they get tired. Btw, I walked and jogged each dog separately... me trying to walk both of them at the same time is a nightmare with my crazy ladies! :)
  • @Knichtus I think I may be the closest shikoku owner to you. I live in north west arkansas, but Texas is large so it depends on your exact location. I think I may have lucked out and got a relatively low maintenance shikoku, but still has high prey drive. I can't ever have a toy breed safely. Which makes me wonder if there is a big difference is in personality between male and female shikoku? I have a girl, and she can be a little pushy with house guests but behaves very well at the dog park. Mostly just crawls in all the people's laps and plays with a little coaxing. But she is a jerk on a leash and will snap, total angel off leash with other dogs. Okay so maybe not that low maintenance, I just don't notice it I guess.
  • @Knichtus I don't have a shikoku but my Kai is pretty muscular. He is 44lbs and 21" at wither. I live in a 2 bedroom apartment and both of my dogs do just fine. They do get a few 30min - 1hr walks everyday, a trip to the dog park couple times a week, and kept active. He is fine with my shiba as she bosses him around.

    Ty is a very stoic and calm guy. He does have an Extremely high prey drive and loves to run. I plan to start working him in barn hunting, but I do keep him active in agility and he loves to work. I am his second owner so I'm not sure how he was as a little guy. He was brought back because he was such a misbehaved dog. That is anything but the truth. I believe they never gave him the opportunity of the challenges he needed. He has been exceptional with me and no real issues. I do feed them Orijen and will sometimes mix in chicken or beef.

    I'm just north of Fort Worth if you ever want to meet my Ty.
  • Oh also my shikoku weighs probably 32 pounds max. she fluctuates a bit, because of random food strikes. Very picky eater I buy a new brand,flavor of food every time.
  • I haven't commented on this thread for awhile, I am still considering adding a Shikoku to our pack however I'm waiting a little bit (another year or so) since were planning on moving to a house and some other things popped up. Thank you all for your help and and the insight on the breed they have still remained my Nihon-Ken of choice along with Kishu's at this point and Kai. Kumatora and Pyrrha my mutts were thinking of getting involved next year in SAR or some type of training to focus their high energy and prey drives. Since I'm a college student I'm busy but my curriculum isn't as strenuous since I only have some classes once a week.

    @poinea I would love to meet Ty! He sounds like a fun Kai.
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