Investing in Shikoku
So I've been doing my lurking thing, and I was going through a lot of the discussions about the Shikoku bloodline and its overall decline. From what I understand, there are dropping numbers in Japan due to cultural issues and such, while there is a push for more bloodlines everywhere else outside of there.
Assuming the biggest barriers to new bloodlines (besides communication and such) is price, I was wondering how feasible it would be to "invest" in a new bloodline. According to Shigeru's JDE website, an import from Japan with his help can run from $3500, while I've heard of almost $5000. From what I gathered, Shikoku pups from a breeder here in the states is usually around $2000.
Instead of paying $2000 upfront for a potential puppy, what if there was an option for some of the more hardcore dedicated folks to pledge $3000 for the goal of importing a new dog. Have a minimum of say 3 pledges in order to get the ball rolling and have the new bloodline imported. Once imported and the dog is bred, the three pledges shoot up to the top of the waitlist and get first dibs on one pup for free (ideally; I'm not sure of the costs associated with breeding a litter... Breeders help me out! Maybe at a very reduced price?).
Maybe to incentivize things a little more, the pledges get to officially name the first set of pups or something. I don't know. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is instead of just paying for a pup, there are bound to be some people willing to pay a little more in an attempt to bring diversity to the existing bloodlines in the States. It's tough to have one dedicated individual fork out $5000 on their own, but if the costs were somehow subsidized its only a matter of waiting to find someone willing to export. And while it may inconvenience a few people waiting in line for a puppy, the benefits of having new bloodlines available should eventually increase the number of breedings.
TL;DR: crowdfund for new imports.
...
Alright, I'm prepared for you all to tear this apart lol.
Assuming the biggest barriers to new bloodlines (besides communication and such) is price, I was wondering how feasible it would be to "invest" in a new bloodline. According to Shigeru's JDE website, an import from Japan with his help can run from $3500, while I've heard of almost $5000. From what I gathered, Shikoku pups from a breeder here in the states is usually around $2000.
Instead of paying $2000 upfront for a potential puppy, what if there was an option for some of the more hardcore dedicated folks to pledge $3000 for the goal of importing a new dog. Have a minimum of say 3 pledges in order to get the ball rolling and have the new bloodline imported. Once imported and the dog is bred, the three pledges shoot up to the top of the waitlist and get first dibs on one pup for free (ideally; I'm not sure of the costs associated with breeding a litter... Breeders help me out! Maybe at a very reduced price?).
Maybe to incentivize things a little more, the pledges get to officially name the first set of pups or something. I don't know. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is instead of just paying for a pup, there are bound to be some people willing to pay a little more in an attempt to bring diversity to the existing bloodlines in the States. It's tough to have one dedicated individual fork out $5000 on their own, but if the costs were somehow subsidized its only a matter of waiting to find someone willing to export. And while it may inconvenience a few people waiting in line for a puppy, the benefits of having new bloodlines available should eventually increase the number of breedings.
TL;DR: crowdfund for new imports.
...
Alright, I'm prepared for you all to tear this apart lol.
Comments
It's a little bit more complicated than just getting the money and importing a dog. Would you import an adult or a promising puppy? Do you import one dog or more? What if you import and the health checks dont check out well for the dog? If you get a puppy you have at least an 18 month wait until breeding to be sure of the quality of the hips. What do you do after you've taken the money other people gave you in exchange for a puppy from the first litter you get from this dog, only to find out that you can't breed the dog?
Do you ask for more money? Do you breed anyway? Do you ask them to wait another 2 years? If I could afford it then I would do it, but if I was that dedicated (to hand someone else 3,000 to import a dog) then I would probably just import the dog myself rather than going through someone else.
Just my two cents. I'm no breeding expert but I know there's a lot more to it and nothing ever goes as planned. I'm interested in what others have to say about it though....
I ran into the NASC website a while back but I didn't realize they were taking initiatives like this. After reading it, it seems like they've taken a similar approach and made it work through auctions and such. I'm glad that they've had their first successful import! Crimson, I look forward to hearing more about your findings.
There are a few really good threads on Shikoku health. Here's one which touches on most of the issues with imports. Link is a jump to a relevant post from Shigeru.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/168729#Comment_168729
I'm a huge proponent of exporting adult dogs. With puppies, you're taking on a huge amount of risk. It is possible to get dogs tested here before sending them over, though most people who import don't bother for some reason.
The only problem with importing adult Shikoku is that bringing an adult dog that has been kenneled singly its entire life, means that unless you have a kennel set up, you're probably going to have problems. My dogs divide their time indoors and kenneled, and without those kennels, managing my Shikoku would be impossible.
With Japanese Akitas, the price difference between a puppy and an adult can be between 3x and 10x more expensive. Not sure if the true is same in Shikoku, but its certainly not as simple as deciding to get an adult instead of a puppy - there will be more cost. Even if the only extra cost is shipping, it can still be a significant weight difference and price between an adult and a pup. Really? I tried to insist when I was looking for an adult. I had a translator familiar with the culture and friends with the breeders. He warned me that if I asked for testing to be done, they wouldn't sell to me. And there was a couple he wouldn't even ask, because he thought that doing so would risk his own relationship with them. He said its extremely offensive. One of the people he did ask on my behalf, sold the dog out from under me to China while we were in negotiation.
Regarding testing: It depends who you are dealing with I guess, and your relationship with them. I've never had a problem with any kennels I deal with in asking for testing to be done. It's usually just a matter of who will foot the bill (since if it doesn't pass the tests you won't be buying the dog, but tests are not something the kennel would have done). Also, a lot of the older gentlemen hardly ever go to the vet, so taking a grown dog there and getting x-rays done that they and their vet have never done is usually not a very inviting prospect for them.
As @PoetikDragon said, culturally it can be considered insulting to request the Japanese breeder do a hip x-ray and/or heartworm check prior to buying the adult (unless, maybe, you're @TheWalrus). And while Suki was proven to have whelped a litter in the past, an attempted breeding prior to importing her failed.
The one thing I feel qualified to address about this would be refunds. I don't know about other services, but at least with kickstarter, backers are "supporting projects to help them come to life, not to profit financially." If the funding goal and the project goal is specifically stated to bring x dogs to America, then as long as the dogs that, to the best of the project creator's knowledge meeting the breedable criteria are imported, then they've satisfied the terms of what they've set out to do and no one should feel entitled to a "refund." Transparency both about the project's very real risks and about how these risks might be minimized and what *has* been accomplished would be helpful. Of course the greater goal is to help the gene pool, but I do think the promise of puppies would be a mistake, since there's no way of knowing before the dogs could be tested and examined state-side how things might be (and of course, there's still no knowing about how the pups might turn out--just thinking of the health issues that have cropped up with the neurological disorder and hip dysplasia)...
You make a valuable point that no one has stepped up to say they'd like to take point or try to solve the hard questions, though. I guess I hoped that maybe it was a matter of the post going unseen by someone in a position to consider it as a viable option for expanding their kennel, or maybe even creating a separate community entity in which the dogs are seen as co-owned, as opposed to people reading the suggestion but feeling the odds were not good. That was probably very naive of me though. Still, if something like this were to get rolling, I would be happy to donate at least some amount to the project without expecting anything in return. I'd just like to see the breed better off than it is now.
It seems like a slow process but I think the current breeders are making great progress on producing healthier dogs.
What is NASC actively doing? Maybe we all could help?
Jesse
What all is involved with getting the breed registered with the AKC? (Or is there a place I can read about that?) It definitely seems like it's an important step to having a bigger presence.
Ilium, you and me are thinking pretty similarly. I see now though that between health issues and the kenneled vs non kenneled situation, there are a lot of things to be considered. But I guess with the idea of crowdsourcing, I meant it to be more of tackling the issue of money. I can imagine how tough it can be for a kennel to pay for an import when breeders don't profit. I wanted to emphasize how crowdsourcing could maybe be a way to help alleviate that.
@CrimsonO2, NASC is a non-profit correct? Have you looked into corporate matching gift programs? With a few key players who have access to that sort of thing you could really generate momentum, especially if coupled with pledge drives (ex: If someone donates $100 I will match their donation, up to $500 dollars). There are lots of members who can donate in small amounts. When knowing that if their small amount will help achieve a more smaller, tangible goal, there is a little more incentive to donate. Just a thought; I'm going off of past experiences with my race team and how we went about fundraising through our alumni base. We were a much smaller group but more tightly knit, whereas this project appeals a much larger audience but with less connection between members.
It's clear the road to preservation of Shikoku is going to be a long journey, but I figure if we can tackle each issue (cost, health, breeding) one by one then we can make some significant progress.
They need you on the team... Great initiative!!!
In the end, it worked out and I ended up importing one from Denmark. Now, Takeo just turned one and I'm wondering if he would be a suitable Stud maybe next year. Part of me feels it would be a 'waste' to just neuter him, as he brings new blood lines to North America... Do i speak to each individual breeder to gauge interest? NASC?
I would need full guidance, and I would support accompanying/shipping/driving pending his results are clear.
Jesse
http://www.shikoku-pedigree.com/details.php?id=63462
I'm no expert, but his lineage goes back to dogs from North American kennels Akashima and O'Ikon.
Looks like he's also TK's ( @Crispy) great-nephew!