New Puppy Advice Needed!

So we just got our Shikoku pup, Nyx, three days ago. We are a little sleep deprived, but also having lots of fun. She's 11.5 weeks old.

When we picked her up, Corina met us half-way between the Bay Area and Southern California, and long story short, we went to a vet in Bakersfield for a quick checkup to make sure Nyx was good to go. Just to be clear- this was a new vet for everyone, including Nyx. The visit went well with no issues in terms of health or bad reaction to the exam or vaccination.

Today we went to what we hoped would be our new neighborhood vet and it was a completely different story. First of all, the vet was pretty condescending to us, which didn't feel great. There was a lot of "you should's" instead of "would you likes" while she was (really not helpfully) spouting off a laundry list of vaccinations, medications, etc. It was annoying but obviously not the end of the world.

But then, she grabbed Nyx under her belly very quickly to pick her up and for the first time we've seen, Nyx tried to bite. Not a full bite but a legitimate warning bite. The vet immediately said that Nyx had aggression issues and that a puppy as young as her should have no problem being handled any which way. She then said we would need lots of personal training well beyond puppy classes (about 14 weeks of which she'll be starting in two days) b/c our dog has a "problem." As we talked, our pup relaxed a bit and then the vet left the room briefly and pat Nyx's paw on the way out when Nyx gave her a quiet growl-- another first. Upon her return, we put Nyx on the floor and the vet said that she was going to pick Nyx up and hold her until she calmed down. Obviously, Nyx flipped out, screamed and eventually calmed down. To that, the vet said "this is really bad behavior," and "you need to be sure this is the dog you want."

For the first 1-2 hours after we got home Nyx barked and growled a few times- which she hadn't done since we got her, and her playbites have felt harder. Was she traumatized? She's calmed down now but it was pretty touch and go for a while.

We understand that there are definitely bits and pieces of truth to what the vet said. We know we want to work on her bite inhibition and handling which is why we signed up for the classes and are trying to socialize her as much as possible. We are also more than willing to invest in personal training since we are first time puppy owners and shikas can be difficult, to say the least. That said, I'm having trouble getting behind this vet's recommendations.

We've literally adjusted our lives around this furball and we absolutely think that that's the way it should be. I felt like we were making such good progress but I walked out of the vet's office today near tears. Are we being overly-sensitive as new (puppy) parents, or does this seem weird to anyone else? Or something in between? It's just so discouraging. Thanks!!

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Comments

  • Ditch that vet and everything they said. That is no way to handle a dog, let alone a puppy. A vet should know better than to manhandle a baby dog like that. It's a one-way ticket to a bite, even from a pup.

    Do a search on the forum for puppy biting. Your pup does not have aggression issues, she is a puppy and pups bite. They just need to learn that its not how you communicate with humans.
  • Something that you have to take into consideration is that being the patient of any kind of hospital visit isn't pleasant. Try to remember what it was like for you when you were a kid at the doctor's office and compare how you felt as a child to Nyx's experience.

    Some reactivity and discomfort is expected from a dog during a vet appointment, especially during a first visit where everyone is new. Any vet who lacks respect towards the dog, like this one, is not worth keeping. Find a new vet, one that doesn't do things that could make you uncomfortable or makes you feel like a bad caretaker for Nyx.
  • edited January 2014
    Agree! Dump that vet! She was being a jerk. Puppies bite. Me and my husband have battle scars from when our male Kai was a puppy. Not a fun period, but he got over it. Search the forum and you'll find a ton of stories.
  • yep, get rid of the vet. My Kai Ken, who is the most gentle of dogs, has a terrible time being restrained. He freaks out at the vet because of this, and he has even growled and snapped, because he hates to be restrained. And yet he is the most mellow of dogs, really.

    And my Akita puppy? She's fine at the vet so far, but her puppy mouthing is crazy. My husband has literally had blood running down his hands when those puppy teeth get caught in his skin. (Thankfully she does not do this to me!). Everyone one of my Nihon Kens has been like this too (except my exceptionally soft-mouthed male Akita). It's just how they are, and it does, thankfully, improve.

    I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with the vet, but don't let their ignorance put you off--you can find a better one!
  • Check out reviews for other animal hospitals in your area or nearby. Once you find a Vet you are comfortable with and who will listen to you. I'd recommend taking Nyx in just for a friendly visit with the staff. Have them give her treats. At first, don't even bother with the staff touching her unless Nyx wishes to engage with them. Keep it happy, fun and short. Do this a few times before actually going in to see the doctor for an exam.

    Your dog does not need to tolerate anything she does not feel comfortable with. As long as the Vet is being good with her...Nyx should allow for fair handling. The Vet needs to be patience and respectful with her though to earn her trust.

    Nyx is reactive but she is not aggressive. There is a difference. Sounds like she was on the defense because she got scared. She is definitely not one to back down from a threat. She'll stand her ground. This experience may have left her with some frustration.

    She should be good with friendly strangers but do not be surprised if she becomes somewhat aloof as an adult. Aloof does not mean aggression...it just means that there will be some people she likes and others she may not care to engage. Growling is "okay" because this how we communicate our discomfort level/tolerance threshold. Just keep an eye on other people and how they approach/interact with her. Protect your puppy.
  • Agreed. Ditch the vet.

    IMO, Shikoku are pretty sensitive and react easy. It sounds like your girl was reacting "aggressively" to the vet's aggressive handling. I can't fault her for that. She's not some blundering Newfie puppy. She's probably not going to tolerate a lot of stress or offense. I know I wouldn't!

    Everyone else has given some great advice.
    I hope you find somewhere that treats her right and everything goes awesome with puppy classes!
  • edited January 2014
    I would talk to Corina about it since she would know this pup best. It's not dooms day as the vet would have you believe.

    Some practitioners just do not have a good beside manner, and mentioned before somewhere before, each has their own ideas and philosophy on dogs, practices and procedures. (That holds true for most medical practitioners in humans and pediatrics too.)

    Your dog and your vet do not appreciate each other at this point…..find another vet!

    As far that the growly stuff….some puppies are more vocal than others. No reason for dreaded concern, just make note to work on later in puppy k. As far as handling, practice touching etc when the dog is not stressed. Stress will bring out the worst in any animal.

    When you go to puppy class I hope they will teach you about restrained holds. It is practiced at our center and it is really helpful for all the pups that come in. Basically it is the "gotcha" game with collar hold and calming in-between puppy play just to teach pups self calm down. We do not release while there are tantrums. Fear and panic are one thing, but basic I don't want to and don't have to we nip in the bud with calm 30 seconds of hold building up duration. Sometimes pups will tussle with you on this but we don't cave to mouthing or all out naughtiness. Doesn't matter breed a lot of pups are not into calming in the beginning so will squirm and struggle a bit. Expect mouthing. The pups get it pretty quick if you stay consistent, most certainly you should see a difference after an 8 week session is over.

    Congrats and good luck : )
    Snf




  • I'd find different vet who actually cares to help. Sounds like they do the whole alpha thing which to me NK breed can be sensitive to that way of handling.

    I worked with Saya from a puppy to be OK with handling, but it took time and work it didn't happen over night.

    Like ShikokuSpirit said once you find a vet who is good do fun visits where the pup meets the staff. I did that with Saya and Bella even though they liked the vet I still brought them for brief visit like if I had to pick up heartworm or something the pups come too. That way they had positive experiences too where they meet the receptionist and got treat or a toy.
  • Get a new vet.

    I went through 2 before I found the one I liked, and I only like her a little bit, lol.
    Vets will always have an agenda because they make money off of you purchasing their services and products/medications sold through their business.

  • Nyx is reactive but she is not aggressive. There is a difference. Sounds like she was on the defense because she got scared. She is definitely not one to back down from a threat. She'll stand her ground. This experience may have left her with some frustration.

    She should be good with friendly strangers but do not be surprised if she becomes somewhat aloof as an adult. Aloof does not mean aggression...it just means that there will be some people she likes and others she may not care to engage. Growling is "okay" because this how we communicate our discomfort level/tolerance threshold. Just keep an eye on other people and how they approach/interact with her. Protect your puppy.
    THIS times a million. Rigby (my Shiba) sounds so much like your Shika, Nyx. We had a perfect first check up, and went back at a later date for exam #2 and it did NOT go well when Rigby was restrained for a mouth check.

    Rigby is very reactive to handling. He hates having his feet touched, he hates having his mouth looked at, etc. He's very blustery - he'll growl, scream, whine, wiggle, he'll snap, and mouth but he has never bitten. I'm still working on this with him (and he's over a year old) but please work on this with your own pup in the comfort of home in a calm, non-stressful environment. I'm sure your breeder would also be able to lend support on this as well - I imagine she knows this pup pretty well and may have some tips and suggestions to making vet visits and handling easier.

    The last time I took Rig into the vet, she suggested a vet that will visit our home for exams or putting him on anti-anxiety medications right before he comes in. Not suggesting either for you at this point in time, but know there are options in the future if you have trouble working through this.
  • Oh yes, please find a new vet. Check out reviews on sites like yelp, and call around and basically interview them all first. Ask if they have worked with breeds like a Shiba before, and how they deal with reactive dogs. You don't want them to ignore the dog's emotions and force them into uncomfortable situations. They should want the experience to be positive for the patient, especially for a general puppy exam. And if the vet team doesn't offer treats (they usually do), you can bring your own and give to her when she's calm or after handling, with praise or whatever you use for rewards.

    My Shiba is fairly people oriented, and well socialized. But he makes a lot of noise during baths and nail trims. The nails are the worst. Here is a video of his trim last month, which has been the quietest so far. He screams like a hyena, but at the end returns for his bacon.

  • As others (and Corina) have said, get a new vet. Shikoku are a primitive breed and they are not a passive breed by any means. Everything must be learned and their genetic predisposition is not like that of a Labrador. That vet you spoke to is using your fear to feed into their sense of authority in the hopes you will run to your vet for further instruction. Your vet, like your dog, should be a partner in your journey through dog ownership, not condescending, especially not on a first visit. Sounds like your vet's behavior is akin to the "established dominance" dog behavior (Cesar Milan-style) that many on this forum abhor.

    On a lighter note, congratulations on Nyx and I hope you continue to build positive white-coat encounter/experiences with her daily!

    Jesse
  • It's reassuring to know that this was a legitimately bad experience and that our gut instinct about this vet was justified. We've started looking into a new vet who will appreciate and respect Nyx.

    On another note, Nyx has been awesome at home. Sure, she turns into a Tazmanian Devil for about an hour every afternoon but she's been incredibly calm and non-reactive with every stranger she's met other than that freaking vet. We had a few potty accidents the first 2 days but she's been quick to get with the program and we had our first 100% accident-free day yesterday! She's also been sleeping through about 6-7 hours a night now and she starts puppy kindergarten today. Thanks Corina and everyone else for the advice and perspective. She's a great pup.

    IMG_1671
    Nyx says, "hello and thank you for your advice!" (this is right before she nibbles your fingers with her shark teeth).

    IMG_1711
    Our aggressive and problematic puppy being aggressive and problematic.

    Oh, and @zandrame, thanks for sharing your video. I love how Kouda comes back for his bacon. That boy knows his priorities!
  • As others have said, ditch the vet. Their behavior was inappropriate for a lot of reasons.

    On finding a new vet, I haven't found sites like yelp to be that helpful personally. An alternate suggestion is checking with people around you who have rescued, especially if they have a skittish or reactive dog (I did this through my work's electronic bulletin board). See what vets they've interacted with and who they thought had the best bedside manner. A vet that treats a reactive rescue with patience and consideration will generally treat all dogs that way. We found a really amazing vet that way and even though we moved, to this day my girl still wags at our new vet because she associates vets with love and cookies even if she needs to go through a bit of discomfort.
  • How is she doing?
  • Yes, I'm also curious to hear about Nyx's progress and your search for a better vet. Were you able to find one?
  • Thanks for asking. We found Nyx a new vet immediately and she's much better. However, I am still looking for that special vet whom Nyx will love to pieces. There was one vet whom Nyx adored but he relocated, so the search continues. Still, the neighborhood vet we use now is a vast improvement from that first one. I just updated Nyx's thread so read more there! http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/9015/meet-nyx-pics-updated-12-01-14#Item_27
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