Are Western Interpretations of Character Changing the Japanese Breeds?
I thought this was an interesting discussion topic as well--
I was going to put this in "behavior and training" but thought it might go better as a general topic.
I was going to put this in "behavior and training" but thought it might go better as a general topic.
@zandrame -So I thought I'd make a thread for everyone who was interested.For the rarer breeds, I'm curious how a Western interpretation of character is changing them. I definitely have opinions on what temperament quirks I find undesirable.I think this would be a REALLY interesting topic! Would you make a new thread on it so we can all jump in and keep this thread about Hokkaido? I really want to go there, but Im leery of derailing Yume's topic over it.
Comments
Have things changed or progressed since this post?
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/4827/nihonken-temperament/p1
One thing I noticed was people thought Shikoku and Kai should maintain a sharper working temperament, so as not to become a "larger Shiba." I don't consider the Shiba temperament ruined though, with my own and others as examples of the variety out there, good and bad.
Another point was the importance of a mother's temperament and a stable environment while she is pregnant and rearing pups. Interesting stuff.
From what I have seen of the breeds collectively, the biggest issue I see is reactivity, both dog and human. And as mentioned by @lindsayt in the other thread, poor impulse control and separation anxiety / barrier frustration.
I think the traits that are selected for in the Japanese breeds in Japan are somewhat overwhelming for most pet owners in general - not just "western" pet owners. Bonnie told me that she rarely placed dogs (Shiba) as pets, partly because of this - she didn't want to change the temperament on her dogs and most people couldn't handle what a Shiba was, iirc.
I think that's true of most of the Japanese breeds. They aren't "unicorns" in that no other dogs ever have shown the traits they do, but they are a somewhat uncommon combination of characteristics that make them difficult for some people to own as companions, so I think it's natural for people (breeders) to want to alter the temperament or breed toward something they find appealing in order to produce a dog that might be more popular as a pet. At the same time, I have a difficult time feeling the same...
I don't really find their impulse control and barrier frustration to be huuuuge issues and I don't think it makes them any harder to own than what I'm used to, but my history with dogs is in Malamutes and Akitas, so while the Shikoku and Kishu were certainly more "intense" in their reactions for the most part (as a generalization), they weren't nearly as big, which made them kind of the same level of difficulty for me, and something I like as a companion. The thing I would want to fix, if I came across it in my own breeding, is the aggressive reactions to humans... but I also wonder if that could have been avoided in some dogs with more careful socialization in the beginning and stricter behavior modification in the end. TK, for example, is becoming less and less reactive to humans (though I can't have him get pet by strangers) - and he's happy to be surrounded by people as long as no one is trying to touch him.
For the Kishu, I'd love to produce more dogs like Nami. I think she's the perfect Kishu - she's very confident, recovers easily from things that do spook her momentarily, extremely tolerant of people, and kind of a "go anywhere, do anything" dog with me. She doesn't like strange dogs, but I think that's normal for a lot of dogs - not just the NK - and may have more to do with her early experiences, as her daughter gets along very well with other dogs (still - let's see if that stays true after she turns 2). Even though Nami dislikes other dogs, she isn't reactive to them, though - and I think I'd like to keep that. It makes her much easier to manage/handle (though it comes as a surprise to some when she IS ultimately aggressive, since she doesn't give a lot of drama beforehand).
My two cents, for what it's worth: I have to say, what draws me to NK breeds are their unique temperaments. I really hope it doesn't get "bred" out of them.
While Takeo is a high-prey drive dog, and can be shikoku-rude, we have been able to work hard on his manners, and similar to TK, is able to be around people as long as people aren't trying to pet him. Dogs are on/off depending on the company. But with all its challenges, I wouldn't change it for the world
My Shiba Grayson has his moments, while very easy going, he still has his Shiba moments, being picky about who to play with, and is very independent.
Though my experience with other NK breeds are limited, I wouldn't want them changed
What are we preserving them for?
If the "correct" temperament makes them unsuitable as pets, and they're not needed for their traditional jobs anymore (hunting has been taken over by western breeds and become more of a hobby than a way of life, anyway) what is the purpose of keeping "correct" temperament that nobody uses?
[This is meant to stir discussion and has nothing to do with my opinion on the matter.]
Also anecdotal, but I'very found Kishu with show lines behind them appear to be less open to people... but I don't know if that's nature or nurtue... correlation doesn't mean causation, and all that...
I think it's good to remove some of the anxiety that seems inherent in the breeds, but the line where anxiety beings and other more desirable traits end might be muddy...
My original question is not really about should we, or should we not, soften or "ruin" Nihon Ken temperament. More to the point, outside of Japan, do we interpret what is "correct" differently? (I think yes.)
It goes back to the three facets of traditional Nihon Ken temperament, Kan-i, Ryosei, and Soboku.. http://yokohamaatsumi.the-ninja.jp/page006.html
My interpretation - These call for a well-balanced dog, physically and mentally. A dog capable of working together with people, but not reliant or needy. Solid and composed, confident. I don't see any place for reactivity, anxiety, and fearfulness in this description. Everything in moderation, without excess. I further interpret this as having a balance between working drive and companionship, or having an "off" switch and being able to relax when called for.
@Crispy, I actually think your Kishu fit this, as well as @ayk's Jindo. Happy to be out catching critters, but also content to schmooze with people. Making the most of it as it comes.
More relevant reading (primarily about Shikoku, but still applicable)
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7059/a-thought-on-the-shikokus-decline-in-japan-/p1
What I summarize from this is that in Japan these dogs are treated as livestock, and rarely worked anymore. They are presented as an illusion of wildness in beauty contests, and sharpness is rewarded. Training, or otherwise bonding with the dogs, is a foreign concept.
We might be used to these dogs being difficult - but is that really how they should be? And then @PoetikDragon's point, what's the merit of preserving an unusable breed?
First, I agree that although some NK traits make them not the best choice for everyone, I do still think they make excellent pets for the right people. I'm sure we can all agree on that. That's why we're here, right? That said, I think that's where it becomes important for breeders and advocates of the breeds to really be upfront about the breeds and what their characteristics are. If pups are matched with suitable homes that understand the NK needs and temperament, then there shouldn't be any push to change or mellow out the breeds.
Secondly, I do think we have some responsibility to the dogs to make their lives enjoyable. What I mean by that is, for example, trying to breed out some of that anxiety, like @Crispy said. A dog that is standoffish with strangers is fine (and maybe desirable to a lot of folks) but a dog that is reactive or stressed out by strangers isn't pleasant for the owner OR the dog. Some goes for dogs that aren't fond of other dogs. I'm lucky in that my Shikoku loves other dogs, but I'd be fine too if she were indifferent. As long as she's not stressed out. I think that's where confidence comes into play. I guess that's my interpretation of "Kan-i"... Confidence, but not in an in-your-face way.
I suspect that what most of us percieve as the interpretation of the standard for character in Japan is heavily influenced by the breeders that have a lot more interaction with the "Western" world. As wonderful a resource as the page from the Yokohama Atsumi kennel is, it is also one of the few that is accessible in English about the breed standard. The same goes for Shigeru's blog (@katothewalrus). Most forum members are limited by language in their understanding of the standard, no? I think naturally the interpretation of the standard in Japan is going to be weighted towards the views of those few kennels that we interact with (either directly, or more frequently, indirectly). We see what a great range of interpretation of the standard we experience with responsible breeders here, so I assume there also exists quite a range in Japan.
So I guess my question isn't whether a Western interpretation is changing the breed. I feel pretty confident in saying that the breed standard is not static across time nor the wider group of breed fanciers. My question would be whether Western interpretations are speeding up the evolution of the standard. Personally, I suspect that urbanization plays a far larger role in changing the standard than a cultural East/West divide.
Either way, great thread! Food for thought.
Jesse
However, I think even by the very nature of how our dogs living with us is distinctively different that it affects the original innate characteristics of the dog. So, try as we might to preserve the qualities and attributes a breed may have originally had in its native origin and purpose, our way of raising and living with them already begins to alter that.
That should read, "Do we view our dogs the same way the Japanese do?" And for me, the answer is a resounding yes.
I want to tread lightly here regarding sweeping generalizations about how a whole country and culture views dogs as it's obvious it can't be accurately captured/conveyed.
However, the difficulty I'm having trouble relaying is that we inherently view the purpose and existence of the dogs in our lives differently. And that alone can significantly affect the nature of the dog and breed itself.
Jesse
I've noticed some lines of Shiba are becoming yappy. My two never really bark but I went to see a breeder who had some in kennels and they never shut up!
Big point from this being that breeders have been encouraged by NIPPO to breed for sharpness, including housing dogs in kennels designed to enhance reactivity and frustration.
I think @CrimsonO2 is saying that just by housing dogs in a different manner, we are already altering temperament. Does that mean, genetics for reactivity/aggression aside, if we remove the negative nurture component, are we no longer preserving the breed accurately?
(Not to mention the health implications of sustained stress and neurosis in animals, is a frustrated non-working show dog a more accurate representation worth emulating anyway?)
This returns to my original question - how have breeders on the forum outside of Japan approached temperament in their programs? Most of the threads with relevant topics are years old, and people who've imported dogs have produced a few generations since then. What are the results? Do you feel your dogs are no longer true to type?
Shigeru blogged about the Japanese perspective in the last few days
http://nihonken.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-shikoku-is-not-wolfdog.html
http://nihonken.blogspot.com/2015/11/wolfdog.html
Full context from the source, accounted by Brad -
I remember that observation by Brad, and I wonder when the dogs are left rather hands-off in a group if they end up bonding and relying on each other rather than to their owner or upon themselves.
Sort of in the vein of how raising littermates can have issues if the dogs are not socialized independently of each other and don't learn to live apart from each other for periods of time.