I should be clear, if it's your intention to spay and you're not up for the responsibility, then by all means, spay your dog and don't breed. It's not for most people as it's a steep learning curve with extra work and responsibility. I would absolutely not advocate keeping a dog intact unless you have a breeder mentor willing to work with you.
Before doing anything, I would contact local (by local I mean within NA) breeders, and do some proper research. I did not mean to imply that anyone who imports a dog should breed said dog. Importing is also not a way to sidestep the NA breeders or breed community, or get a dog more easily. The breeders in Japan are often very reluctant to sell their dogs overseas.
I always suggest the casual owner obtain a dog domestically rather than import. It's easier, less expensive, your breeder will be available to support you, and it's much less of a risk. In fact, that should really have been the point of my original comments on importing. There is not much point in importing unless you're involved with a breeding program.
@LaurenSabino182 There are 3 Kishu breeders in the United States. There are only 4 Kai Ken breeders I would ever consider a puppy from. There is only 1 Hokkaido breeder that has had a litter so far. There is I think 1/2 Shikoku breeder in the U.S. and 1 in Canada.
I have met all of the breeds and have a Kai Ken. They are so different it isn't even funny. Different isn't bad. Its just different. I loved them all but I don't think a Shikoku would EVER fit in at my house. Kishu, maybe. Hokkaido can be a hit or miss, same with Kai Ken.
Anyways. This forum is owned by a Nihon Ken breeder and many of us have NK and many are also breeders. In fact I think all of the reputable NK breeders are members of this forum. But we are more than just a forum, we are a community. We don't really know much about you. Most breeders won't even respond to an email inquiring when their next litter is. They want you to show you are dedicated. That you are really really interested. Or that maybe they want you to visit one of their puppies near by to find out if you know what you're getting yourself into.
The last thing a breeder wants is someone who thinks they're qualified or over qualified for one of their puppies. Before I got Tavi I've only ever had German Shepherds and although I have lots of training knowledge and background, they were worlds apart. I wouldn't even compare Tavi to any other spitz breeds. Shes not like a Shiba. Shes not like a Husky. Nothing can prepare you. You'll just get frustrated.
Tain is right- meeting some of these breeds you are interested in IRL will go a lot farther in helping you know if they would fit well for you than just saying you've read everything.
@laurensabino182 I know you're feeling defensive and insulted and I in no way whatsoever want to offend. I'm much to much of a pushover for discussions like this but I really had to chime in. I don't know your situation opr what went on behind the scenes but before you jump in please, please just read my experience. I'm not too proud to say I was a fool.
Be careful. I know the feeling if wanting a dog so bad it hurts and being ready to grab the first thing that struts by. I was there. I got that dog. Yeah I was young and stupid and I thought I was doing the right thing by getting that little rescue puppy because I was in a good place to get another dog and I had the money saved and it seemed right and etc. etc. I went in with the best of intentions. I was going to get a rescue puppy and it was going to be beautiful.
I got her alright. I picked the first rescue puppy that came my way because we'd always had rescues and never had trouble. I wasn't even looking for a specific breed. I just needed a dog.
Thousands of dollars later, many tearful nights, and scared arms I still have her. And we were the only ones brave enough to keep her. My perfect puppy grew up to be a mentally ill trainwreck of a dog. Shes unpredictable when unmedicated and I know the meds are slowly ruining her liver and it hurts me every day to think of it but without them she is literally unmanageable. I can't even put into words the pain, physically and emotionally, of life with her. But I made my bed. I was the one who settled and now I deal with it. If you settle you need to be ready for the pain AND the consequences. Your the one whos going to look this *from what I can tell from your posts* spur of the moment dog in the eyes every day and live with her.
THINK ABOUT IT THINK ABOUT IT THINK ABOUT IT. For the love of God and all things holy, think about it.
I was better than most people and my girl is still alive today, despite everything. If you do this uou've got to be ready.
*forgive the caps lock and grammer, will edit later. I need to go to my happy place for a while*
I've corresponded with the shelter a lot, and I've been planning on getting another puppy since last summer. Custard is only 9 weeks old. I doubt she has many/any issues at all
@ayk is our member Jindo breeder and rescuer, and she knows the most about them here- if you are receptive to experienced owners' information, you can't go wrong with Ann when it comes to Jindos.
The shelter is Soi Dog Foundation. They seem to be very popular. The only hiccup was that they won't allow me to crate train the puppy. They won't adopt dogs to people who say they'll crate their dogs, for whatever reason. They think it's abusive and cruel to put a dog in a "cage"
@Vulpesvulpes89 - sorry for coming into this thread without anything useful to say to the creator, but I just wanted to say I take my hat off to you for what you have done for your girl and for not giving up on her.
A Soi dog (street dog) from Thailand is unlikely to be a Korean Jindo. Instead, the dog is more likely to be a pariah dog with the upright ears and curled tail typical of the entire region.
I think it a really bad idea for people to internationally adopt a pariah dog. You can't meet the dog before making the adoption. Can't test the dog with your Shiba.
There are big risks associated with adopting a pariah dog. There's the unknown genetic temperament (I've heard of pups growing up to bite everybody in the family), and you miss out on early socialization to a Western environment due to the 4 months of age rabies quarantine (dogs terrified of going outside of the home).
Instead, you might consider adopting an Asian spitz dog from a responsible rescue group within the U.S. that carefully evaluates their dogs and matches them into appropriate homes. A responsible rescue group will also be there to offer training support to you and be a safety net for the dog.
An international group, that is apparently out-of-step with our ideas on crate-training, wouldn't be able to offer that. And due to the "international-ness", would not be able to be a safety net for the dog.
Dogs are hard to come by for adoption in MA. They're almost always shipped from the south. I just really want to help with the dog meat trade. I obviously hate all animal abuse but that hits me harder for some reason.
So basically, I can't really adopt locally. I shouldn't adopt internationally, and NK breeders are next to impossible to find. And you're all giving me flack here over my OP. It's like you're all telling me to just get a fish or something.
It is a huge leap to go from "can't adopt locally" to "import a 'rescue'* from Korea." There may not be rescues with the breed of dog you want in your area, but there ARE needy dogs including Jindo in rescues in other parts of the country, much closer than Korea. And as @ayk pointed out there is a safety net, support, ability to return the dog if it just cannot work with your Shiba, etc. You will have none of that importing a dog.
* I put rescue in quotes because I don't know this organization, but I DO know that sometimes people steal dogs and sell them overseas claiming they're rescues or saved from the meat industry.
People are only giving you advice and sharing their experiences because you seem rushed in your search to get another NK without getting to know each unique breed to the best of your ability to ensure that the right one would be a good fit with your Shiba. Throughout the thread, you've bounced around with 4-5 breeds you were interested in so it's understandable that people reading it would try to help. The last thing people want to hear about is a dog getting hurt or abandoned due to aggression and fights. This forum really is the best resource you can find when it comes to finding the right NK breeder so rejecting advice from the breeders themselves and going on the defensive only hurts your chances of ever getting one. I hope you would be able to open yourself up a little more so you can find the right dog for your next companion. Best of luck.
1) You don't need our approval to do anything. You're an autonomous adult and you can do whatever you want. You did come here and initiate a discussion with us, though, and we're not under any obligation to change our opinions to be more accommodating.
2) I think what you're perceiving as criticism is just experienced people telling you things that you might wish someone had told you later on. If you make an incorrect assumption and someone else knows better, wouldn't you want them to tell you? I don't see why you wouldn't. I believe everyone in genuinely trying to be helpful.
Based on what the OP posted in her intro, she can vote but she can't drink. Take it as you will. None of us have met her in person. We can only judge from incomplete information.
There are some really great rescue organizations that are based overseas and some not so great ones. As far as I know, @curlytails is actually the member most familiar/involved with the overseas oragnizations that work with US adopters, but it seems that she is no longer active on this forum. She may still be reachable but from what I recall she is in academia and does fieldwork overseas so I suspect that she'd be difficult to reach.
In the end the OP is the only one that can live her life and regardless of how her arrogance or defensiveness may abrade other members of the forum, as long as she's truly committed to taking care of the dog she will be adopting, I think that getting her dog from a rescue is way better than getting another mill dog or supporting the bybs that are sadly popping up for the other nk breeds.
There's an aphorism that says that the foolish man does not learn from his mistakes, the average man learns from his mistakes, but only the wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Not everyone can be a wise man. As far as I can discern from this thread and her other posts, the original poster has little regard for whatever others may tell her. She is an adult and she has made her own assessments based on her situation, for better or worse. I think at this point it is probably more productive to be a good resource should she have any issues.
Ps - Apologies for being a defeatist old member. Thanks to everyone for having the patience and taking the time to contribute valuable info for any future members who read this thread. Thanks to @vulpesvulpes89 for opening up about his/her personal and painful experience. Thanks to @ayk for always being a calm, cool, educated resource for info about jindos and the other east asian primitive and pariah breeds.
Pps - @laurensabino182 - I know in your intro thread you said that you wanted a dog that had the spitz spirit but not as rambunctious and more demonstrative than your shiba. From my limited (but first person) experience with jindos, I can't say that they are less rambunctious in the least. If your dog is a pariah dog rather than a purebred jindo, as @ayk surmises, I'd say take extra care on the housebreaking and have lower expectations for demonstrativeness. I know folks who have taken on pariah dogs and it can be a difficult match depending on your expectations. Regardless, thanks for rescuing.
There's a lot of great info here, I hope the OP will take the time to consider our experiencesso that she can make an educated decision. Given that she already has a Shiba, more thought needs to be given about a second addition than it would be if she didn't already have a dog.
If you narrow down your breed choices, you will find that there are tons of good breed specific rescues with dogs the come from the New England and Tri-state area. Yes, I agree that many dogs are shipped up from the southern US, but that's not all of them. Besides, a southern US bred mutt is still closer than any import, with the benefit of local support.
If you ever want to consider rescuing a Shiba, NYC Shiba Rescue is a great rescue and even if you don't want another Shiba, they could always use more volunteers and fosters.
I could be missing something, but I'm not sure why getting a dog from the south is considered undesirable and the solution is to get a dog from even further away. Is there something about these southern dogs I don't know?
I've talked to that shelter actually about Jenny. The dog should be put down. She attacked the foster mom's toddler multiple times. She's dangerous and bad with cats, dogs, and children.
I contacted the group that has Jenny after you posted.
This is what they said about Jenny:
BARRK is not a shelter but a foster based rescue. The child was not a toddler but a 7-8 year old child. Jenny had a bone and the child tried to grab it. Jenny growled and the child paid no attention. Her hand was bitten. We wanted Jenny crated until we could pick her up but the foster left her loose. The older child tripped over the dog in the middle of the night and got nipped. We do not feel this is reason for Jenny to be put down. i'm sorry your friend is passing such harsh judgement on a dog she knows nothing about! We however do not condone Jenny's behavior towards children. This is why she was sent into training. Jenny has no problem at all with other dogs. Jindos in general should never live with cats due to their high prey instinct.
and when I inquired about the extent of the bite, this is what they said:
One bite broke the skin. That was the bite when she had a bone. A bone she was given for the first time ever. The second incident was a nip and she didn't break the skin.
If this is beyond your comfort level, that's fine. But realize this is not atypical of pariah dogs.
Well, the foster mom told me something different. She also mentioned she was food aggressive so maybe the bone situation was what that lady was referencing. I don't know.
You have to remember the foster mom is very bias because it was her children, so she probably over exaggerated.
This behavior, IMO, can be seen in all dogs, but I believe is very prominent in Nihon Ken breeds. Many NK have 'stranger danger' and are wary of kids, especially if not socialized with them. They also have less tolerance than most breeds and are often very reactive. Tavi guards food and bones from other dogs, and runs from people except me who try to take things from her.
Omgtain, true. My Shiba isn't food aggressive. Maybe I'm lucky.. Idk. I'm not really sure what all of you want me to tell you though. Thanks for the replies.
Comments
Before doing anything, I would contact local (by local I mean within NA) breeders, and do some proper research. I did not mean to imply that anyone who imports a dog should breed said dog. Importing is also not a way to sidestep the NA breeders or breed community, or get a dog more easily. The breeders in Japan are often very reluctant to sell their dogs overseas.
I always suggest the casual owner obtain a dog domestically rather than import. It's easier, less expensive, your breeder will be available to support you, and it's much less of a risk. In fact, that should really have been the point of my original comments on importing. There is not much point in importing unless you're involved with a breeding program.
There are 3 Kishu breeders in the United States.
There are only 4 Kai Ken breeders I would ever consider a puppy from.
There is only 1 Hokkaido breeder that has had a litter so far.
There is I think 1/2 Shikoku breeder in the U.S. and 1 in Canada.
I have met all of the breeds and have a Kai Ken. They are so different it isn't even funny. Different isn't bad. Its just different. I loved them all but I don't think a Shikoku would EVER fit in at my house. Kishu, maybe. Hokkaido can be a hit or miss, same with Kai Ken.
Anyways. This forum is owned by a Nihon Ken breeder and many of us have NK and many are also breeders. In fact I think all of the reputable NK breeders are members of this forum. But we are more than just a forum, we are a community. We don't really know much about you. Most breeders won't even respond to an email inquiring when their next litter is. They want you to show you are dedicated. That you are really really interested. Or that maybe they want you to visit one of their puppies near by to find out if you know what you're getting yourself into.
The last thing a breeder wants is someone who thinks they're qualified or over qualified for one of their puppies. Before I got Tavi I've only ever had German Shepherds and although I have lots of training knowledge and background, they were worlds apart. I wouldn't even compare Tavi to any other spitz breeds. Shes not like a Shiba. Shes not like a Husky. Nothing can prepare you. You'll just get frustrated.
I know you're feeling defensive and insulted and I in no way whatsoever want to offend. I'm much to much of a pushover for discussions like this but I really had to chime in. I don't know your situation opr what went on behind the scenes but before you jump in please, please just read my experience. I'm not too proud to say I was a fool.
Be careful. I know the feeling if wanting a dog so bad it hurts and being ready to grab the first thing that struts by. I was there. I got that dog. Yeah I was young and stupid and I thought I was doing the right thing by getting that little rescue puppy because I was in a good place to get another dog and I had the money saved and it seemed right and etc. etc. I went in with the best of intentions. I was going to get a rescue puppy and it was going to be beautiful.
I got her alright. I picked the first rescue puppy that came my way because we'd always had rescues and never had trouble. I wasn't even looking for a specific breed. I just needed a dog.
Thousands of dollars later, many tearful nights, and scared arms I still have her. And we were the only ones brave enough to keep her. My perfect puppy grew up to be a mentally ill trainwreck of a dog. Shes unpredictable when unmedicated and I know the meds are slowly ruining her liver and it hurts me every day to think of it but without them she is literally unmanageable. I can't even put into words the pain, physically and emotionally, of life with her. But I made my bed. I was the one who settled and now I deal with it. If you settle you need to be ready for the pain AND the consequences. Your the one whos going to look this *from what I can tell from your posts* spur of the moment dog in the eyes every day and live with her.
THINK ABOUT IT THINK ABOUT IT THINK ABOUT IT. For the love of God and all things holy, think about it.
I was better than most people and my girl is still alive today, despite everything. If you do this uou've got to be ready.
*forgive the caps lock and grammer, will edit later. I need to go to my happy place for a while*
I think it a really bad idea for people to internationally adopt a pariah dog. You can't meet the dog before making the adoption. Can't test the dog with your Shiba.
There are big risks associated with adopting a pariah dog. There's the unknown genetic temperament (I've heard of pups growing up to bite everybody in the family), and you miss out on early socialization to a Western environment due to the 4 months of age rabies quarantine (dogs terrified of going outside of the home).
Instead, you might consider adopting an Asian spitz dog from a responsible rescue group within the U.S. that carefully evaluates their dogs and matches them into appropriate homes. A responsible rescue group will also be there to offer training support to you and be a safety net for the dog.
An international group, that is apparently out-of-step with our ideas on crate-training, wouldn't be able to offer that. And due to the "international-ness", would not be able to be a safety net for the dog.
So basically, I can't really adopt locally. I shouldn't adopt internationally, and NK breeders are next to impossible to find. And you're all giving me flack here over my OP. It's like you're all telling me to just get a fish or something.
* I put rescue in quotes because I don't know this organization, but I DO know that sometimes people steal dogs and sell them overseas claiming they're rescues or saved from the meat industry.
2) I think what you're perceiving as criticism is just experienced people telling you things that you might wish someone had told you later on. If you make an incorrect assumption and someone else knows better, wouldn't you want them to tell you? I don't see why you wouldn't. I believe everyone in genuinely trying to be helpful.
There are some really great rescue organizations that are based overseas and some not so great ones. As far as I know, @curlytails is actually the member most familiar/involved with the overseas oragnizations that work with US adopters, but it seems that she is no longer active on this forum. She may still be reachable but from what I recall she is in academia and does fieldwork overseas so I suspect that she'd be difficult to reach.
In the end the OP is the only one that can live her life and regardless of how her arrogance or defensiveness may abrade other members of the forum, as long as she's truly committed to taking care of the dog she will be adopting, I think that getting her dog from a rescue is way better than getting another mill dog or supporting the bybs that are sadly popping up for the other nk breeds.
There's an aphorism that says that the foolish man does not learn from his mistakes, the average man learns from his mistakes, but only the wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Not everyone can be a wise man. As far as I can discern from this thread and her other posts, the original poster has little regard for whatever others may tell her. She is an adult and she has made her own assessments based on her situation, for better or worse. I think at this point it is probably more productive to be a good resource should she have any issues.
Ps - Apologies for being a defeatist old member. Thanks to everyone for having the patience and taking the time to contribute valuable info for any future members who read this thread. Thanks to @vulpesvulpes89 for opening up about his/her personal and painful experience. Thanks to @ayk for always being a calm, cool, educated resource for info about jindos and the other east asian primitive and pariah breeds.
Pps - @laurensabino182 - I know in your intro thread you said that you wanted a dog that had the spitz spirit but not as rambunctious and more demonstrative than your shiba. From my limited (but first person) experience with jindos, I can't say that they are less rambunctious in the least. If your dog is a pariah dog rather than a purebred jindo, as @ayk surmises, I'd say take extra care on the housebreaking and have lower expectations for demonstrativeness. I know folks who have taken on pariah dogs and it can be a difficult match depending on your expectations. Regardless, thanks for rescuing.
If you narrow down your breed choices, you will find that there are tons of good breed specific rescues with dogs the come from the New England and Tri-state area. Yes, I agree that many dogs are shipped up from the southern US, but that's not all of them. Besides, a southern US bred mutt is still closer than any import, with the benefit of local support.
If you ever want to consider rescuing a Shiba, NYC Shiba Rescue is a great rescue and even if you don't want another Shiba, they could always use more volunteers and fosters.
Have you looked on petfinder.com? Lots of Asian spitzy breeds, and this one might actually be a nice dog.
ie. https://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/34004309
I don't know the rescue org, but here's a dog that your Shiba can meet.
This is what they said about Jenny: and when I inquired about the extent of the bite, this is what they said:
If this is beyond your comfort level, that's fine. But realize this is not atypical of pariah dogs.
This behavior, IMO, can be seen in all dogs, but I believe is very prominent in Nihon Ken breeds. Many NK have 'stranger danger' and are wary of kids, especially if not socialized with them. They also have less tolerance than most breeds and are often very reactive. Tavi guards food and bones from other dogs, and runs from people except me who try to take things from her.