Probably a little biased on the subject but I thought I'd throw my two cents in anyways, just as a note for anyone who happens to see it. It is harsh and unwarranted to say the rescue who may or may not bite should be put down. Especially if you are looking for another spitz or particularly a rescue. Moving a dog from home to home is stressful, especially in a fostering situation where the foster parents are trying not to get too attatched or might not invest as much time training them as a forever home would. Jenny looks like some sort of Jindo-NK... thing (can't really tell for sure). Its a well known fact dogs like this can be food agressive or intolerant of inexperienced children in their face. They don't like dogs of the same sex and often see cats as food. (I turned down a purebred Akita pup from show lines as it was a female and my other two dogs are female. Just to much at risk there.) Expecting a dog like Jenny to like children, share food, love cats, and be a friendly park puppy goes against her nature. I'm not using experience from my girl Roe here but from. my Akita mix, Tin-Tin. @LaurenSabino182. It is probably for the best you will not be getting an Akita as they are the largest of the NK and they can, therefore, express these traits more... strongly than a smaller shiba. Anyway, bringing my Akita mix hope was an affair but I was more prepared for him than my little Roe-pig. He was food/toy agressive and had difficulty with other dogs as he had lived in an outdoor kennel his whole life. While he still can't eat with the two females in the house he can now share toys, be treated and play with Roe. He is a mix but there was agression in the house at first. A few teeth were shown and faces grazed the first several weeks. He still sleeps upstairs, eats seperately, and is never allowed to run-and-greet new dogs. But by working with all three of my dogs and finally getting Tin some basic training he is now the perfect behavior I can expect from an AKITA raised in his situation. He's not a pomeranian or a goldie. He is a 65 pound, very male, half breed dog that has a known tendancy to not be a pushover. He's not bad. He just acts like the breeds in him tell him to act. But I'm ranting now. Long story short, if you want a primitive breed your going to have to make allowances and shift YOUR point of view. There aren't bad dogs. They're just dogs, animals. They're intelligent and willful, but not malicious. You'll get the kind of pup you adopt. Not a miracle.
Hey, the foster mom was the one who told me she thought the dog should be put down. I just said what she told me about the incidences and aggression. I've trained and worked with dogs my whole life. In many different venues. I've worked with Akitas and other spitz before. I understand dogs.
@omgtain - very true. I have a girl who was socialized with kids and loved them. It only took one or two incidents with children who wouldn't back off when I told them to (and my mistake in not being aggressive enough with them because I am loathe to make a child cry). The kids weren't even doing anything particularly bad, just trying to approach when it was clear she no longer wanted to interact with them. Now my dog has a zero tolerance policy and I have to be on super alert when we do things like go to farmer's markets. There are way too many kids with no sense and no manners who will try to touch a dog that is being carried or for instance, or hanging out under a table behind my legs. Once I caught a kid putting her tail in his mouth (back when she was more child tolerant and I was unwisely less vigilant).
I suspect that NK overall just have higher standards for manners and lower tolerance for rudeness from people and other dogs.
@vulpesvulpes89 - I think it is a really illuminating experience to share. It's easy to regard onself as above it all, too smart, too dedicated to make these kinds of mistakes in judgment. But the reality is that even the most experienced, educated, committed people will slip up now and then. There are always things that we can do better and if you close yourself off to that possibility you'll have a tough time learning. Even so, it's difficult thing for most people to admit when they have made a mistake or had less than stellar judgment. Hearing a firsthand account from someone who is being honest about it and not glossing over their part or the consequences is really valuable. A person reading about it can look at the experience and think deeply about what they can do to improve what they're doing. Or behave like a patronizing fool and dismiss perspectives like these thinking that these are not the sort of lessons that would ever apply to them.
Well, now I don't know what to do. I wanted to get a puppy this year, but getting one from a breeder doesn't seem likely. And shelters aren't working out for me either.
Lauren what we ultimately want is for you to end up with a dog that fits you. A dog that won't cause stress on your life or may need rehoming in the future. Contact some breeders, get to know them, maybe someone will back out and decide it isnt the right time for a pup and you'll be next in line ...You don't know until you try.
I would never rehome a dog unless he hurt the dog I have now. Maybe I should just get another Shiba.. The breeder I got Buddha from is having another litter soon and he said I could have pick of the litter
That'd be hard to turn down- pick puppy! and you already have a relationship with the breeder, so that's really good. Do you like the parents of this litter? A pair of shiba would go together well, especially if opposite sexes.
The puppy would be buddha's half sister. The parents are really sweet, super affectionate and well trained. I do love Shibas, obviously, I just wanted a bigger dog.
One thing to take note of is although you may have a good relationship with Buddha's breeders, he has pinto markings that aren't standard for the breed and may indicate signs of a byb or mill. Look into his breeders more and make sure they are of a reputable source with proper health testing and breeding practices before deciding to get another puppy from them.
What on earth is wrong with his dogs and litters being AKC registered? And the pictures I have are the ones I took when I picked up my puppy. This is ridiculous.
He's a hobby breeder and only breeds once every two years. He has two AKC Shibas (Buddha's parents) that are his pets first. I have pictures of them and of Buddha's litter but I don't know how to post them here on my phone. The parents look like the classic red Shiba. Idk why Buddha and some of the other puppies ended up pinto, but most didn't.
I don't think so. Buddha was pick of the litter last time. Everyone wanted him.. Someone even offered $3500. But the breeder wanted to keep him, then figured a third dog was too much for him. I just came around at the right time. The breeder just really likes me and thinks I'm a good owner. He also has a crush on my sister, so that could explain it too haha
I suspect that [primitive breeds] overall just have higher standards for manners and lower tolerance for rudeness from people and other dogs.
QFT. So much truth.
He's a hobby breeder and only breeds once every two years. He has two AKC Shibas (Buddha's parents) that are his pets first. I have pictures of them and of Buddha's litter but I don't know how to post them here on my phone. The parents look like the classic red Shiba. Idk why Buddha and some of the other puppies ended up pinto, but most didn't.
The frequency of litters, number of dogs owned, being AKC registered, having photos, being "pets first", etc are not factors or qualifications for being a responsible breeder.
Definitions of responsible breeder may vary but there are some examples above. You will find commonalities between them and AT A MINIMUM all of those criteria should be met. This is literally a list of minimum requirements, the absolute least a responsible breeder must do... a GOOD breeder would go above and beyond.
I don't think there's anything wrong with hobby breeders. He's a good man, loves his dogs and puppies, and has been there for me anytime I've needed help. What's irresponsible about that?
What on earth is wrong with his dogs and litters being AKC registered?! And the photos I have are pictures I took when I picked up my puppy. This is ridiculous. First he was a puppy mill/back yard breeder and now he's irresponsible for not pushing puppies out of his dam like a machine. Jesus.
I think you're mistaking what we're trying to get across as us flaming your breeder or calling him a bad person. From what you've written, he seems like a nice guy that loves his dogs that just wants to breed puppies to experience the joys of having puppies once in a while. We're only saying his breeding practice is irresponsible for the fact that he isn't breeding to make the overall breed better, he's just breeding to have puppies and/or for mainly profit. Without things like health and temperament in mind, more dogs are at risk of being rehomed/euthanized for having aggression and health problems later.
In regards to AKC registration, there's nothing wrong with it. What we're saying is that being registered with them doesn't mean anything when it comes to the quality of the dog. Sadly, much of the AKC's funding comes from puppy mills and byb registrations so that they can put a higher price tag on their pups to sell to uninformed owners.
He's rich, he has a freaking helicopter pad. He doesn't breed for any profit. Did I mention he turned down a prospective buyer for $3500. And as I also mentioned his dogs are healthy, and sweet, and well trained. You never even talked to the guy. You guys really think you know everything.
First, you guys gave me crap for asking about breeders. Then you have me crap for looking to adopt. Then for reiterating what a foster mom told me. Then you called my breeder a back yard breeder then irresponsible. You said he didn't breed for health or temperament when you had ZERO reason to. His dogs are beautiful, healthy, and well behaved. Same for his puppies. You're basing everything on a couple of pinto coated puppies. You guys act like you know everything.
I think you should just stop being defensive. Nobody's said anything insulting or rude. Being disagreed with is not the end of the world. Being wrong is not the end of the world, either.
You were told the truth about breeders (that there's a waiting list and they expect you to know more about the breeds than you do).
Nobody gave you crap for wanting to adopt. You were informed about potential issues you might not be aware of about your chosen dog (and pariah/spitz dogs in general).
Then someone looked into the foster Jenny and got a different story (all second hand information, so everyone can trust whom they choose).
The breeder may well be a backyard breeder by most people's definition. Typically, a breeder would actively avoid producing a pinto shiba. There's been a huge surge in backyard breeders producing shibas (be they AKC registered or not) and we've all seen them again and again and we've seen the dogs they produce. Whether this particular breeder is a BYB (which, of course, depends on one's definition), there are red flags and it's worth considering as a possibility. If you're OK with buying a dog from this breeder and you like this breeder, that's up to you. Nobody else has to like him.
As for acting like we know everything, I would say that your major beef with us from the get-go is that we give you information where you lack information and by that definition, we know more about certain topics than you do. There's nothing wrong with being informed. That's not to say we're all perfect and we all know everything, but it's wise to acknowledge experience where you see it and at least consider it without getting defensive. We're all well-wishers trying to share our experience, that's all.
Maybe you're having a hard time finding a dog because what you want doesn't exist. Your other threads indicate you want an obedient, attached, affection, velcro, non-rambunctious dog and that is essentially the opposite of all the breeds you've mentioned in this thread. Maybe a completely different breed/type is what you need. Of course, I can only speculate, but that's what it seems like to me.
And the only reason I'm "having trouble" is because breeders are hard to come by and so are suitable shelter dogs. But go ahead, backhandedly insult me more and then tell me you were never rude to me.
@LaurenSabino182, every single post that has been written in response to you has been helpful and written with more restraint than I've known some of these people to normally exhibit.
My first Shiba was from a notorious and infamous backyard breeder (RightPuppyKennel). I was on this forum before I got him. I saw the posts, saw the advice, and let my emotions get the best of me to get one to selfishly satisfy my immediate needs. While I love my dog and wouldn't trade him for anything in the world, I know full well what I did was impulsive and I have EXTREMELY LUCKED OUT compared to others who got dogs from the same breeder and 1.) spent large amounts of money in medical costs to treat their dogs 2.) ended up having to euthenize their dogs. All due to (severe allergies, neurological conditions, behavioral conditions, etc.). Many of these same people reacted EXACTLY like you did when they were told this very information about their dogs. Nobody likes being told their baby is ugly or that the Porsche they bought is really an overpriced Volkswagen.
You don't have to take this advice and it may not be something you want to hear. But it's something any prospective NK dog owner should hear and needs to hear.
I guarantee you that as you spend more of your life owning NK (other than the overly popular Shiba) you will come to a similar realization.
Good luck to you and, like everyone, I do hope you find what you're looking for.
Comments
Moving a dog from home to home is stressful, especially in a fostering situation where the foster parents are trying not to get too attatched or might not invest as much time training them as a forever home would. Jenny looks like some sort of Jindo-NK... thing (can't really tell for sure).
Its a well known fact dogs like this can be food agressive or intolerant of inexperienced children in their face. They don't like dogs of the same sex and often see cats as food. (I turned down a purebred Akita pup from show lines as it was a female and my other two dogs are female. Just to much at risk there.)
Expecting a dog like Jenny to like children, share food, love cats, and be a friendly park puppy goes against her nature.
I'm not using experience from my girl Roe here but from. my Akita mix, Tin-Tin. @LaurenSabino182. It is probably for the best you will not be getting an Akita as they are the largest of the NK and they can, therefore, express these traits more... strongly than a smaller shiba.
Anyway, bringing my Akita mix hope was an affair but I was more prepared for him than my little Roe-pig. He was food/toy agressive and had difficulty with other dogs as he had lived in an outdoor kennel his whole life. While he still can't eat with the two females in the house he can now share toys, be treated and play with Roe.
He is a mix but there was agression in the house at first. A few teeth were shown and faces grazed the first several weeks. He still sleeps upstairs, eats seperately, and is never allowed to run-and-greet new dogs. But by working with all three of my dogs and finally getting Tin some basic training he is now the perfect behavior I can expect from an AKITA raised in his situation. He's not a pomeranian or a goldie. He is a 65 pound, very male, half breed dog that has a known tendancy to not be a pushover.
He's not bad. He just acts like the breeds in him tell him to act.
But I'm ranting now. Long story short, if you want a primitive breed your going to have to make allowances and shift YOUR point of view. There aren't bad dogs. They're just dogs, animals. They're intelligent and willful, but not malicious. You'll get the kind of pup you adopt. Not a miracle.
Thank you to @violet_in_Seville and @six for your kind words. They mean a lot to me.
I suspect that NK overall just have higher standards for manners and lower tolerance for rudeness from people and other dogs.
@vulpesvulpes89 - I think it is a really illuminating experience to share. It's easy to regard onself as above it all, too smart, too dedicated to make these kinds of mistakes in judgment. But the reality is that even the most experienced, educated, committed people will slip up now and then. There are always things that we can do better and if you close yourself off to that possibility you'll have a tough time learning. Even so, it's difficult thing for most people to admit when they have made a mistake or had less than stellar judgment. Hearing a firsthand account from someone who is being honest about it and not glossing over their part or the consequences is really valuable. A person reading about it can look at the experience and think deeply about what they can do to improve what they're doing. Or behave like a patronizing fool and dismiss perspectives like these thinking that these are not the sort of lessons that would ever apply to them.
I have no doubt you've had experience with dogs and Akita. I would hope the experience and input from others leads to a good end result.
I just hope we don't condemn a dog with good prospects just for foolish mistakes or misunderstandings. Thats for all people, not just you or me.
http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_breedersandpetshops.php
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/checklist.html
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/checklist-for-responsible-dog-breeders.html
Definitions of responsible breeder may vary but there are some examples above. You will find commonalities between them and AT A MINIMUM all of those criteria should be met. This is literally a list of minimum requirements, the absolute least a responsible breeder must do... a GOOD breeder would go above and beyond.
In regards to AKC registration, there's nothing wrong with it. What we're saying is that being registered with them doesn't mean anything when it comes to the quality of the dog. Sadly, much of the AKC's funding comes from puppy mills and byb registrations so that they can put a higher price tag on their pups to sell to uninformed owners.
You were told the truth about breeders (that there's a waiting list and they expect you to know more about the breeds than you do).
Nobody gave you crap for wanting to adopt. You were informed about potential issues you might not be aware of about your chosen dog (and pariah/spitz dogs in general).
Then someone looked into the foster Jenny and got a different story (all second hand information, so everyone can trust whom they choose).
The breeder may well be a backyard breeder by most people's definition. Typically, a breeder would actively avoid producing a pinto shiba. There's been a huge surge in backyard breeders producing shibas (be they AKC registered or not) and we've all seen them again and again and we've seen the dogs they produce. Whether this particular breeder is a BYB (which, of course, depends on one's definition), there are red flags and it's worth considering as a possibility. If you're OK with buying a dog from this breeder and you like this breeder, that's up to you. Nobody else has to like him.
As for acting like we know everything, I would say that your major beef with us from the get-go is that we give you information where you lack information and by that definition, we know more about certain topics than you do. There's nothing wrong with being informed. That's not to say we're all perfect and we all know everything, but it's wise to acknowledge experience where you see it and at least consider it without getting defensive. We're all well-wishers trying to share our experience, that's all.
Maybe you're having a hard time finding a dog because what you want doesn't exist. Your other threads indicate you want an obedient, attached, affection, velcro, non-rambunctious dog and that is essentially the opposite of all the breeds you've mentioned in this thread. Maybe a completely different breed/type is what you need. Of course, I can only speculate, but that's what it seems like to me.
My first Shiba was from a notorious and infamous backyard breeder (RightPuppyKennel). I was on this forum before I got him. I saw the posts, saw the advice, and let my emotions get the best of me to get one to selfishly satisfy my immediate needs. While I love my dog and wouldn't trade him for anything in the world, I know full well what I did was impulsive and I have EXTREMELY LUCKED OUT compared to others who got dogs from the same breeder and 1.) spent large amounts of money in medical costs to treat their dogs 2.) ended up having to euthenize their dogs. All due to (severe allergies, neurological conditions, behavioral conditions, etc.). Many of these same people reacted EXACTLY like you did when they were told this very information about their dogs. Nobody likes being told their baby is ugly or that the Porsche they bought is really an overpriced Volkswagen.
You don't have to take this advice and it may not be something you want to hear. But it's something any prospective NK dog owner should hear and needs to hear.
I guarantee you that as you spend more of your life owning NK (other than the overly popular Shiba) you will come to a similar realization.
Good luck to you and, like everyone, I do hope you find what you're looking for.