Literally nothing I told you about the breeder could even come close to make it oaky for you to call him a byb. He barely breeds, is rich from his car restoration business, and has turned down offers on puppies for thousands of dollars if he doesn't like them. His dogs are bright, healthy, and beautiful. The only fault you can say about him at all- the ONE thing you're all basing this assumption on is my pinto marked dog. Which happens sometimes. I've studied the genetics. Out of the 6 puppies in the litter, two were pinto. The rest were classic, conforming red Shibas. Stop acting like you know everything about everything. You don't know my breeder or his dogs. 2 of his puppies from previous litters are actually therapy dogs. You don't hear about many Shibas doing that, huh? But you guys like to jump the gun and assume he doesn't breed for good temperament. How dare you. Get off your high horse or better yet- leave me alone.
I think the best course of action is to step away from this thread, take a month or two break and remake a similar thread if you're still interested. You're stuck on the defense right now regardless of what anyone says so there won't be any progress made.
I've been a member here for 8 years and taken plenty of breaks when I got too hot headed. In the end the people here are great people with a lot to offer to you as a nihon ken owner. Most of them have looked past my tantrums as I matured through my 20s.
Nope, seems like anything I said would be given a negative response. I'm done with asking anything here. I've even had a couple of people PM me apologizing for these commenters and saying they've had similar experiences.
There are a handful of very good rescues in New England. There are great rescues just outside of New England, in the northeast, too.
Furthermore, if you want a puppy from a breeder - breeders will fly pups to you - to your choice of airport. I flew my pups from Boston to Denver and Los Angeles when I had my litter while I was in Providence - and there's more support if you go through a responsible breeder than there will be from an international rescue.
No one is trying to tell you to get a fish or give up on a dog. If you want to adopt from the Soi Dog rescue, that's what you're going to do. We're just trying to get you to think before you jump in. Many people here have very honest concerns and a lot of experience with these breeds.
I've been thinking about getting a second dog since I got my first one over a year ago. And I don't plan on getting one in five seconds. I just said in "2016" that could be this summer or November. I'm not jumping into anything. I never said I was.
Nope, seems like anything I said would be given a negative response. I'm done with asking anything here. I've even had a couple of people PM me apologizing for these commenters and saying they've had similar experiences.
Take your own advice. "Stop acting like you know everything about everything." Don't tell me nope. You say it seems. I'm telling you what it is. Why does your assumption trump what I know? See, this is exactly what I mean. I'm trying to help you yet you're still lashing out.
FYI - this forum was (to the best of my recollection) about having a community for those interested in breed preservation. As the various NK breds have come more into the public consciousness, it has attracted members who are not primarily invested in breed preservation, but I would say that is still the interest of the core members that post.
That is the context for how most members here define "responsible" and "good" breeders: breeders who have a good idea of standard, and are looking to improve, preserve, and educate with an eye for the very many variables that come into those efforts. Not everyone agrees about the best way is to go about that but there are a few criteria that most people agree on and more consensus when it comes to the breeds with a larger gene pool (like shibas).
You may be too angry to read this and maybe everyone assumes that you already know because you've read a lot of threads in your research but I think it would be helpful to list these things for any new members reading the thread in the future. I also think outlining these things is more useful than discussing these things since different folks may have completely different ideas of what the terms responsible breeder, byb, etc entail.
- testing for common inheritable ailments such as hip dysplasia, luxating patella, and glaucoma. Tests are conducted at two years of age or older and registered with OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals). CERF tests are done for the eyes but are a predictor for other eye issues aside from glaucoma. Pennhip is an alternative test for hips. Probably more helpful with a large population like shibas. Shiba breeders that go beyond the typical also have been doing gonioscopies (which can be a predictor for one type of glaucoma: narrow angle glaucoma) and thyroid testing before breeding. There is also an additional test for hokkaido and akita inu. (Can someone chime in on this or link me, I can edit this post. I can't recall off the top of my head). This is a criteria that mostly applies to North American breeders. Ther are threads and posts about the cultural differences when it comes to health testing. For breeds with a narrower gene (kai ken, shikoku, hokkaido, kishu, jindo come to mind) breeders have to make difficult decisions sometimes. There can be trade offs but testing is still done.
- solid grasp of the genetic background for each of their dogs used for breeding, usually extending back several generations (less detail is expected if there are imports from Japan in the pedigree: sometimes detailed information about temperament, health issues, offspring is just not available).
- solid grasp of the standard both in the home country and Japan. Ideally the standard would be the same. Really good breeders can tell you the ways in which the home country standard deviates from the one in Japan. This generally also entails interacting with others in the breed community.
- A clearly articulated vision and mission for their breeding program and how it contributes to breed preservation or how and why it improves on the current gene pool. A good breeder can articulate this in detail. Everyone may have a slightly different interpretation of what betterment or improvement means but there are specific reasons why two dogs will be put together to get what is hopefully a better dog.
- involvement in the breed community (this ties back to one of the earlier points). Good breeders are also still always in the process of learning about their breed. Meeting with others in the community provides different perspectives conducive to learning and growth. Breeders are involved with working their dogs, sports, or conformation. I think a good breeder is also involved with rescue because they care about the breed overall, and not just their own dogs.
I may be missing some stuff, but those are some of the main criteria of what being a good breeder means to most members of this particular forum.
[edited to add] The hokkaido test is for collie eye anomaly (CEA). Thanks @lindsayt.
Also a correction since the diseases that I was thinking about for Akitas, SA and VKH, as far as I know there is no predictive testing. Affected dogs are tested afterwards.
Okay, and how do you know my breeder didn't do all of those things? These people called the breeder I went to bad with the only reason being 2 of his puppies came out Pinto. How is that not laughable?.. Y'all don't even know his name.
He may have, I have no idea nor would I bother to speculate without further information. I'm just giving context for what people mean by good breeder because I noticed it hadn't been outlined in the thread and I thought it would be useful for future readers.
Health testing as mentioned above is usually one of the things that I recommend people to inquire about in the first discussions with a potential breeder. If that info isn't available or a solid reason for why it isn't completed, then it really doesn't matter to me how nice the person is or how much they say they love their dogs as pets first...
CEA, Collie Eye Anomaly is the additional disease we are testing the Hokkaido for.
You're right, we don't know his name. Are you willing to share it with us so we can form our own opinions about his breeding program (and won't waste time on this thread further)? That way you won't feel the need to constantly defend him and we won't muddy up this discussion further. As @violet_in_seville said. Many of us here are part of the NK community because we believe in and are just as passionate about preservation as we are about furthering knowledge about the NK breeds.
He's not a very active breeder, as I've mentioned, he's a hobby breeder. If any of you are from the east coast you'll recognize the name "Herb Chambers". Well, he works side by side with him and also owns his own business restoring cars and doing custom trim work. He's a busy dude. I also don't have his permission to just share his number on the Internet and I don't think he'd appreciate it. Can I upload pictures from my phone here? I have pictures of his dogs and some of Buddha's litter mates. That's all I can really offer you.
Sharing information is the first step to understanding. We definitely don't need his contact number and wouldn't ask of it. Knowing of your breeder's dogs will definitely help us better understand your position.
This forum doesn't allow direct uploads of pictures unfortunately. You can upload to other sites like flickr or picasa and link them to this forum using the image icon above the area to write posts.
@LaurenSabino182 I didn't say that your breeder isn't responsible. I provided you with some lists so that YOU could check all the items on the list. You know the breeder, we don't. You now have the tools you need, use it. Check into it. Find out for yourself. Get independent confirmation (ie. look records up on OFA rather than take his word that "they're healthy"). Be secure in your knowledge.
I just want to say how much I appreciate everyone sharing information without getting angry. I know topics like these sometimes become heated and I'm so glad to see this level of composure.
How about if you want to see photos of his dogs so badly, just email me. Sabinolauren@gmail.com. Seems silly though. They look like every other Shiba or Shiba puppy you'd ever see.
Has your breeder ever shown his Shibas at AKC dog shows? Does he have a kennel name (which is also often required to be on thw registered name of the dog)?
The only responsible breeders I know of in your area are women, but I could be wrong.
Regardless, even if you don't like it and appreciate it, everyone who posted here cares. We all care about making informed decisions when adding a new dog, and we care enough to spend our time here hoping you won't make a decision that you and your pup will hate down the road. Though it may feel like you have closed your mind to some great info and getting defensive, deep down I think you're still listening to what is being said. Whatever you choose, in the end it's your decision and you'll have to live with the consequences.
Personally, I think your best option is to stay local and either adopt from a rescue or buy from a responsible breeder.
K. Again, I've had people messaging me apologizing for certain commenters and people saying they've had similar, judgmental experiences here. I think I've had every right to be "defensive" and others don't disagree. I didn't really get much out of this but regret for asking a question and black lash for everything I said thereafter. Literally everything. But whatever. This whole thing was a waste of time.
We are a "show me" group of people and love to see pictures and pedigrees and OFAs, otherwise it's hard to take a persons word. Concrete evidence is always appreciated in conversation (in real life too, you will come to understand I hope).
Well, I'm not Ron (the breeder), so I can't just give his information out. I told you, he's a HOBBY breeder about 20 times now. He doesn't show, he doesn't run a kennel, etc. He's just a guy that loves the breed and has puppies every once in a while. Healthy, perfectly nice puppies. Some are therapy dogs, ones a "spokesdog" for a car dealership where he meets a ton of people and kids all the time. They're all great dogs. Most just go to family, friends, and people around the area that he knows. His dogs aren't breaking records or getting show titles, but they're wonderful dogs. Sorry if that's irresponsible for you.
It's irresponsible not to health test. That was the point made earlier (several times). Also nobody wants or is asking for the guys number or contact info, ok?
And I never said he didn't health test. Did I say that? Did I say anything to make it seem like he didn't do that or didn't care about his dogs or this breed? No, I did not. Yes, he health tests.
Well technically, most anyone who shows dogs, or breeds them for improvement and preservation, are hobby breeders. For these people, dog breeding isn't a business as they aren't making any money from the hard work they do.
For the most part, in the US at least, pretty much all responsible Shiba breeders show their dogs. Some do participate in dog sports, but for the most part the Shiba Inu is a show breed and not a working one. If Buddha's breeder doesn't show or health test or have a puppy contract or do any of the things listed in an earlier comment, then he does not meet what the general dog community defines as responsible.
It doesn't necessarily means there's anything wrong with him, his dogs, or Buddha; there are many byb breeders with good intentions. It just means that he isn't really helping the breed overall (which should be the focus in any dog breeder).
Comments
I've been a member here for 8 years and taken plenty of breaks when I got too hot headed. In the end the people here are great people with a lot to offer to you as a nihon ken owner. Most of them have looked past my tantrums as I matured through my 20s.
Furthermore, if you want a puppy from a breeder - breeders will fly pups to you - to your choice of airport. I flew my pups from Boston to Denver and Los Angeles when I had my litter while I was in Providence - and there's more support if you go through a responsible breeder than there will be from an international rescue.
No one is trying to tell you to get a fish or give up on a dog. If you want to adopt from the Soi Dog rescue, that's what you're going to do. We're just trying to get you to think before you jump in. Many people here have very honest concerns and a lot of experience with these breeds.
That is the context for how most members here define "responsible" and "good" breeders: breeders who have a good idea of standard, and are looking to improve, preserve, and educate with an eye for the very many variables that come into those efforts. Not everyone agrees about the best way is to go about that but there are a few criteria that most people agree on and more consensus when it comes to the breeds with a larger gene pool (like shibas).
You may be too angry to read this and maybe everyone assumes that you already know because you've read a lot of threads in your research but I think it would be helpful to list these things for any new members reading the thread in the future. I also think outlining these things is more useful than discussing these things since different folks may have completely different ideas of what the terms responsible breeder, byb, etc entail.
- testing for common inheritable ailments such as hip dysplasia, luxating patella, and glaucoma. Tests are conducted at two years of age or older and registered with OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals). CERF tests are done for the eyes but are a predictor for other eye issues aside from glaucoma. Pennhip is an alternative test for hips. Probably more helpful with a large population like shibas. Shiba breeders that go beyond the typical also have been doing gonioscopies (which can be a predictor for one type of glaucoma: narrow angle glaucoma) and thyroid testing before breeding. There is also an additional test for hokkaido and akita inu. (Can someone chime in on this or link me, I can edit this post. I can't recall off the top of my head). This is a criteria that mostly applies to North American breeders. Ther are threads and posts about the cultural differences when it comes to health testing. For breeds with a narrower gene (kai ken, shikoku, hokkaido, kishu, jindo come to mind) breeders have to make difficult decisions sometimes. There can be trade offs but testing is still done.
- solid grasp of the genetic background for each of their dogs used for breeding, usually extending back several generations (less detail is expected if there are imports from Japan in the pedigree: sometimes detailed information about temperament, health issues, offspring is just not available).
- solid grasp of the standard both in the home country and Japan. Ideally the standard would be the same. Really good breeders can tell you the ways in which the home country standard deviates from the one in Japan. This generally also entails interacting with others in the breed community.
- A clearly articulated vision and mission for their breeding program and how it contributes to breed preservation or how and why it improves on the current gene pool. A good breeder can articulate this in detail. Everyone may have a slightly different interpretation of what betterment or improvement means but there are specific reasons why two dogs will be put together to get what is hopefully a better dog.
- involvement in the breed community (this ties back to one of the earlier points). Good breeders are also still always in the process of learning about their breed. Meeting with others in the community provides different perspectives conducive to learning and growth. Breeders are involved with working their dogs, sports, or conformation. I think a good breeder is also involved with rescue because they care about the breed overall, and not just their own dogs.
I may be missing some stuff, but those are some of the main criteria of what being a good breeder means to most members of this particular forum.
[edited to add]
The hokkaido test is for collie eye anomaly (CEA). Thanks @lindsayt.
Also a correction since the diseases that I was thinking about for Akitas, SA and VKH, as far as I know there is no predictive testing. Affected dogs are tested afterwards.
CEA, Collie Eye Anomaly is the additional disease we are testing the Hokkaido for.
Sharing information is the first step to understanding. We definitely don't need his contact number and wouldn't ask of it. Knowing of your breeder's dogs will definitely help us better understand your position.
This forum doesn't allow direct uploads of pictures unfortunately. You can upload to other sites like flickr or picasa and link them to this forum using the image icon above the area to write posts.
The only responsible breeders I know of in your area are women, but I could be wrong.
Regardless, even if you don't like it and appreciate it, everyone who posted here cares. We all care about making informed decisions when adding a new dog, and we care enough to spend our time here hoping you won't make a decision that you and your pup will hate down the road. Though it may feel like you have closed your mind to some great info and getting defensive, deep down I think you're still listening to what is being said. Whatever you choose, in the end it's your decision and you'll have to live with the consequences.
Personally, I think your best option is to stay local and either adopt from a rescue or buy from a responsible breeder.
For the most part, in the US at least, pretty much all responsible Shiba breeders show their dogs. Some do participate in dog sports, but for the most part the Shiba Inu is a show breed and not a working one. If Buddha's breeder doesn't show or health test or have a puppy contract or do any of the things listed in an earlier comment, then he does not meet what the general dog community defines as responsible.
It doesn't necessarily means there's anything wrong with him, his dogs, or Buddha; there are many byb breeders with good intentions. It just means that he isn't really helping the breed overall (which should be the focus in any dog breeder).