Breed preservation does not mean preserving one color, one single allele, to the exclusion of all else.
You are right when you say there are no white lines of Japanese Akita. The reason? Because many breeders erroneously choose to breed only reds or only brindles, focusing on a single color instead of preserving the breed as a whole. This is not a Good Thing. This doesn't support your argument, but instead, point out why it is flawed. Japanese Akita no longer come in sesame because the popularity of reds drove them out of existence. No one worked to preserve them and now they're gone.
There are white lines of Hokkaido Ken, in fact the Chitose line which are all white is probably the most populous of all Hokkaido show lines. Saying that there are no white Hokkaido lines is blatant misinformation and lies... or "alternative facts" I guess is the new way to say it.
And even if white were the preferred color for Kishu (it's not) and the other colors not allowed (they are) it would be suicidal to throw out an otherwise excellent specimen exhibiting great breed type for a single allele. Once which can easily be bred away from in just one generation.
To quote from Ruffly Speaking...
Every dog who is removed from the population hurts that population. That is FACT. It’s population ecology 101. [...] Since every dog that is removed from the population hurts the population, we must only remove those whose presence would hurt it even more. (Emphasis mine.)
The dominant wild-type allele at the Extension locus does not hurt the population. If anything, it is recessive red (aka white or cream -- which by the way are the same thing) that might pose a risk to the population.
I say phenotype be damned. Esp when its exclusivity hurts the breed. Yet, we see the exclusive conformation happening in breed after breed at the expense of their health. At some point Carleen and others will have to crossbreed to keep the breed alive.
I think that all colors available in as many diverse lines as one can find in any breed, given that their structure and health tests are good, is important to sustain any breed. I realize that this is an unpopular view in a couple of breeds, but I can't help that.
@hotarujishin This is exactly what we have been trying to do with Hokkaido here in North America, as an example. We don't want any color exclusion. It's different with my first breed, Shibas, but they are in a very different place compared to the medium NK.
Just double checking my judging resolution, brindle is not allowed in Shiba/Shikoku/Kishu. I believe it's not listed that way on NIPPO's site, but brindle is not allowed as a color option when registering a Shikoku or Kishu.
Black and tan is still allowed. Either way, b/t and brindle are for all purposes non existent in Kishu. Just clarifying this point. Sorry if I've posted otherwise (I get things wrong too).
Visit any dog breed forum and you`ll find a thread about what their purebred was mistaken as. GSDs as huskys and malamutes, dobermans as great danes and greyhounds. That`s without the color issue. Yeah, the average person might not be able to tell apart the different nihon ken breeds. So? And? Your point? I have yet to see you make any.
It`s a shiba! Actually, this is a kishu, another Japanese breed.
Lol, it's so true that the average person can't even recognize common dog breeds let alone uncommon ones. I've had people in Japan ask if Ajax is a German Shepard.
I can't agree more. Can one of the admin confirm if this thread has the most likes on the forum? With 170+ likes its seems like it might!
I'm also heartened to see that you are still part of the discussion. I'm sure that you weren't expecting the reaction that you received to your first post. I'm sure you would never say that looking at XYZ's dogs makes me sad. But because this community is so small, if you make a comment on a particular characteristic like you did, by default you are pretty much saying exactly that. That is why everyone jumped on you.
Also since this community is so small every member is important. We should all be working together to improve and preserve the breeds. Part of that is maintaining accurate breed standards. There is nothing wrong about being incorrect about something and then fixing it, even TheWalrus can be wrong at times. Based on info in this thread, it looks like Crispy is updating the standard on her website to correct the error regarding brindle.
Do you also plan on updating the standard on your website? If not, why not?
What better reason than NIPPO, JKC, UKC, and FCI don't consider colored (sesame and red) dogs a fault? Your program can still bred for pure white and take pride in it!
Comments
You are right when you say there are no white lines of Japanese Akita. The reason? Because many breeders erroneously choose to breed only reds or only brindles, focusing on a single color instead of preserving the breed as a whole. This is not a Good Thing. This doesn't support your argument, but instead, point out why it is flawed. Japanese Akita no longer come in sesame because the popularity of reds drove them out of existence. No one worked to preserve them and now they're gone.
There are white lines of Hokkaido Ken, in fact the Chitose line which are all white is probably the most populous of all Hokkaido show lines. Saying that there are no white Hokkaido lines is blatant misinformation and lies... or "alternative facts" I guess is the new way to say it.
And even if white were the preferred color for Kishu (it's not) and the other colors not allowed (they are) it would be suicidal to throw out an otherwise excellent specimen exhibiting great breed type for a single allele. Once which can easily be bred away from in just one generation.
To quote from Ruffly Speaking... http://rufflyspeaking.net/2014/10/27/how-we-must-change-as-breeders-and-why/
The dominant wild-type allele at the Extension locus does not hurt the population. If anything, it is recessive red (aka white or cream -- which by the way are the same thing) that might pose a risk to the population.
At some point Carleen and others will have to crossbreed to keep the breed alive.
I realize that this is an unpopular view in a couple of breeds, but I can't help that.
This is exactly what we have been trying to do with Hokkaido here in North America, as an example. We don't want any color exclusion. It's different with my first breed, Shibas, but they are in a very different place compared to the medium NK.
Black and tan is still allowed.
Either way, b/t and brindle are for all purposes non existent in Kishu.
Just clarifying this point. Sorry if I've posted otherwise (I get things wrong too).
Do you know of any copy of the judging resolution that is in English? I have one, but it was translated for Shiba and focuses on them.
It`s a shiba!
Actually, this is a kishu, another Japanese breed.
Tada! end of confusion.
Thanks everyone........great discussion! Carleen
I'm also heartened to see that you are still part of the discussion. I'm sure that you weren't expecting the reaction that you received to your first post. I'm sure you would never say that looking at XYZ's dogs makes me sad. But because this community is so small, if you make a comment on a particular characteristic like you did, by default you are pretty much saying exactly that. That is why everyone jumped on you.
Also since this community is so small every member is important. We should all be working together to improve and preserve the breeds. Part of that is maintaining accurate breed standards. There is nothing wrong about being incorrect about something and then fixing it, even TheWalrus can be wrong at times. Based on info in this thread, it looks like Crispy is updating the standard on her website to correct the error regarding brindle.
Do you also plan on updating the standard on your website? If not, why not?
What better reason than NIPPO, JKC, UKC, and FCI don't consider colored (sesame and red) dogs a fault? Your program can still bred for pure white and take pride in it!