SKY2 I would take a slow and steady course in figuring out the food issues.
First, staying on the ID canned if that is what your vet prescribed. Then if you are getting less tummy irritation + firmer stools , I would consider moving to a different food on the list. As Dave said it might take a combination of the ID along with the metronadizole pills to easy irritation to the bowels. The important thing is to get the bowel irritation under control so that food/nutrition is actually being absorbed into your dogs system.
If you move to cooking yourself I would suggest boiled chicken and steamed rice to begin with and then add one veggies at a time. Don't heap too much too many things in at once. If you rush into cooking with too many items it makes it difficult to weed out what will cause flair ups, so make any changes slowly and record what you are doing. Talk to your vet about your plans so things don't get too off course.
tsukitsune: That's a good question, This is due to the nature of allergies. Allergies are believed to be developed over time to exposure to a substance or a similar molecular substance can provoke a allergic reaction with repeated exposure. Rabbit is considered a novel protein because it has not been traditionally included in dog food diets, all through time Im sure dogs have eaten rabbits meat, it is just your individual dog probably was not exposed to rabbit meat (unless you have a extraordinary cook for a dog mom, jessica, wow, I don't eat mammals or reptile meat, just poultry and limited seafood depending on its method of capture and conservation status (I dont like very many vegetables so I haven't been able to completely become vegetarian), but I don't think I ever had that kind of variety in my diet, your dogs are lucky!.) Since the rabbit meat is new the body does not recognize it as a allergen and does not mount a immune response. Of course if you have been feeding rabbit, you would not choose that diet
SKY2: If you are going to cook your own food I'd advise speaking with a vet. holistic or nutritionist first to devise a plan as if you include the same allergen in the diet it will not help as your dog does not have a properly functioning immune system the food itself is not the problem, it is probably her immune reaction to that food whether it be in a can or cooked by you.
I agree with staticfuzz to start with something really innocuous like boiled chicken and steamed rice, (or try the novel protein route) and move on from there slowly. I also would not include grains, these are typical allergens and not a natural ingredient in a dogs diet the nutrients gained from these grains should be from eating the animal that ate the grain, although sometimes they are allergic to the chicken. I also would advise you against using raw foods, dogs have been domesticated for maybe 15,000 years they like us have a reduced capacity to deal with bacterial contamination associated with it and many dogs and cats die from salmonella infections each year, which is also possible for you to get. It is caused from improper handling. The motto in veterinary medicine is first do no harm, you don't want the cure to be worse than the disease.
I would also give the pepcid A/C or famotidine(generic) 1/4th of a tablet 10mg tablet it is a extremely safe drug you can get the human one at the store it is extremely cheap drug too. It just will cut down on overproduction of gastric acid when switching foods. I also think metronidazole is a safe drug and fairly innocuous to use and even a limited 7 day dosage could be really beneficial to cut down on the inflammation in the gut, I can't imagine how uncomfortable I would be if I had diarrhea for three months. Also remember to have lots of water available as diarrhea means she is not absorbing the water she is in-taking because of the inflammation in her gut.
I stand by the diets I listed, although prepared dog diets are not perfect in the least, HIlls and Eukanuba are the only companies to perform research with their food and give it to veterinarians so it is known what is the performance and efficacy of their diets. The diets have been proven effective countless times, however if you have the time and effort a natural diet is best. if you can first isolate the allergen and not include it. If you are against medication, I work with a veterinary acupuncturist occasionally and she says routine acupuncture can greatly help these cases.
For me I would try the metronidazole first just to make sure my baby is feeling better and comfortable right away. I always put myself in the paws of a pet, if you had diarrhea for 3 months would you want to have another 8 weeks or more of diarrhea while waiting for diet changes to take effect. Even if the metronidazole does not work completely it will make her more comfortable while diet changes are in effect.
Also remember that if your are doing a food trial you cannot give treats that different from the food your are doing in the trial as they can effect your outcome, so as treats use the food you are feeding during the trial, I know it sucks but it is the only way to be sure what is causing the problem.
These cases are extremely difficult and frustrating and I applaud your for patience with it, remember to work with your vet before you do anything, making changes without the vets recommendation can set you both back because if your not on the same page it will take longer to figure out what is the cause. You are your own advocate do what you feel is in the best interest of you and your baby.
I hope this helps again!
once again let me know how everything works out!
P.S: SKY2 You live in Ireland! cool, I am visiting Europe and Morocco in December despite the crappy us dollar, and going to dublin for 3 days any other recommendations for things to do or where to go other than dublin?
"I also would advise you against using raw foods, dogs have been domesticated for maybe 15,000 years they like us have a reduced capacity to deal with bacterial contamination associated with it and many dogs and cats die from salmonella infections each year, which is also possible for you to get. It is caused from improper handling."
Raw can still be an option provided the dog has a healthy enough system to handle it. Dry dog foods have had more reported salmonella outbreaks than human grade raw meat sources for a dog's diet, especially in the last few years. http://www.webmd.com/news/20080515/update-dog-food-salmonella-outbreak Proper handling must accompany both raw fed and dry food fed dogs.
Canines with an uncompromised immune system can handle the bacteria in properly handled raw meats as their digestive tract is shorter and more acidic and therefore designed to digest within 4-6 hours leaving little time for bacteria to grow and prosper.
Also, with raw, if a dog is allergic to a protein source (i.e. chicken) they may just have issue with the properties of the cooked meat and not have issue with the raw version. My female shiba can handle raw chicken whereas in dry dog food, holistic chicken formulas would give her allergic reactions.
I'm not pushing raw because I feed it, but it should always be an option for an owner and dog that can handle feeding this diet when nothing else seems to be working. Obviously not everyone can do it, and vets usually don't suggest it because I had a lot of issues with trying to consult with my vet before starting and now just see a holistic nutritionist for the dog's dietary needs.
Tsukitsune: I agree there is nothing wrong with raw food if properly handled and stored, and is quite viable for a dog to eat. I just would advise against it in this case because her gut is already compromised and immune system is not working properly it leaves her more susceptible to bacteria, maybe after stabilizing the flora in the gut and isolating a cause it would be a good idea if he so desires?
Proper handling is a must, everyone on this forum are great owners, however out there there are plenty of not so great owners, that think a dogs gut can handle anything and leave meat out and feed it even if you would not eat it. This scares vets into not wanting anyone to do it because frankly no matter how people act at the clinic, you have no idea what they do at home. It is probably the exception not the rule that an animal gets infected from the food but many vets are scared that if they recommend it, they would be liable and would feel guilty if it does happen even if the it is 1 in 100,000 they dont want to risk it. And to my knowledge that recent outbreak from commercial food was the only one within recent time and has been fairly reliable in the past. Although with the melamine problem the commercial food industry has a lot to be accountable for. Unfortunately vets still see a high mortality rate with animals infected with salmonella although some are not affected and it can be treated if caught early. Im not a vet yet, working on it, but I would be hesitant to recommend it unless the owner was really enthusiastic and did their research about the pros and cons.
There are two sides to either story, I think both are viable options, I think it depends on your lifestyle, ethics and choices what you think is best for your animal is what you should do, as I know you have their best interest at heart. Here are three links that talk about the risk of salmonella to people in either foods commercial and raw:
check this links out.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/diseases/salmonellosis.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/115688.php
and links about the benefit of raw food:
http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Diet_JohnBurns03.pdf
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
Here is a link to the AVHMA: Holistic vet association
they have a search feature to find a holistic vet in your area.
You are completely right it is difficult to get a vet to agree to raw foods, as vets are trained as scientists first they look for clear research, processed foods have this research so it is hard for them to accept something without much research behind it, its probably a little bit of ego involved too. I agree going to a holistic vet is the best option if you want to try raw food.
That is interesting to note your dog has a problem with cooked meat as opposed to raw meat, I assume this would be the result of of the protein breaking down during cooking and leaving fragments that provoke reactions from the immune system where the whole protein strand would not?
Yeah, I agree with Snf. Don't rush into things. If he isn't stable to begin with, then exposing him a variety of new protein sources could serve to aggravate things. Further, you will have no idea what could be causing his problems. I/D is not actually a hyperallergenic diet. It is a bland diet that can be used to calm and upset stomach, but if he has a food allergy it probably won't due much good because it contains very common protein sources (chicken at least if I recall correctly).
Diagnosing a food allergy is difficult and I wouldn't jump to any conclusions yet; however, I would keep it in mind while moving forward. The reason is actually somewhat complicated, but with certain conditions like IBD dogs can serially acquire food allergies. The nutritionist that I've been working with had one golden retriever that acquired new allergies every 10 days. If you at all suspect that your dog may have food allergies, you want to limit their exposure to different protein or grain sources as much as possible. The fewer he is exposed to now, the more options you have for treatment later.
I would also consider trying a probiotic. Lucy is on one and I just started Joey on one as well. The one Lucy is on is actually 100% vegetarian due to her condition. In fact, I even had to get a new prescription for Lucy's steroids (Budesonide) because the gel-caps they came in are a proteins source. This fits with Andrew's comment about feeding treats as well. When you have a dog with dietary issues, you need to control EVERYTHING they put in their mouth. I don't brush Lucy's teethe because all of the K9 toothepastes are flavored with a protein source.
As for raw, I think Andrew makes another good point. I know I've read in multiple places that dogs with IBD can have sever complications when fed raw. I would rule that out for now, but you could come back to it a year or so down the road once you have things figured out.
For now, I think you should stick to I/D for at least a few weeks to see if there is any improvement. If you don't see an improvement with I/D after a few more weeks, then it will be time to get more aggressive. As well intentioned as most vets are, they don't know a whole lot about nutrition. Even Lucy's internal medicine specialist isn't quite as up on nutrition as he should be and he deals with IBD all the time. To get Lucy's current plan in place which seems to be working really well, I took her to a holistic vet who specializes in clinical nutrition. It took me 8 months to get to that point, but its something to consider.
**about the raw vs. cooked chicken allergy.. i'm not 100% but it worked so I'm going with it. According to our nutritionist, the proteins in cooked food are different than in raw, so a dog that's allergic to cooked chicken can often eat raw chicken without any problem. We tried it, not expecting miracles after the detox week and it really was correct, Tsuki has been eating raw chicken in her diet for 27 days without so much as a hot spot!
You are going to be a veterinarian? Thats marvelous! I hope you are more well rounded in the end than my veterinarian. I trust her whole heartedly to diagnose ailments and do surgeries, but I do not trust her immediate turn to Science Diet for nutrition questions.
You know what I would love to see? A veterinary study, not funded by a commercial dog food company, that measures a true raw diet, particularly the prey-model diet that I follow (which is much more than just raw bones and chicken) and its benefits and harms vs. a commercial prescription diet, benefit and harms in dealing with ailments and allergies in a biologically appropriate way. In this life, everyone is ruled by the all mighty dollar so we probably won't see that study any time soon.
BUT no matter what diet you choose, you have to look to your dog for the answers. For me, I see the benefit in all three of my dogs that the prey-model raw has given them already in a relatively short period of time. And I put in two years of research before having the stones to go through with it, but I realized the risks and realized the benefits and after all that research, the benefits far outweighed the risks. Their energy, their stools, their coats, their dental health, everything is optimal now, even if I do hate handling organs with a passion! I'm still trying to compile all my internet resources onto my blog to help others make informed decisions and compiled binders full of other resources too!
BUT There is risk in every single diet.
So whether its home cooked, commercial processed grain in or grain free or raw diet, I think ample research has to be done beyond the veterinary office and do what is best for your dog, because if most vets are like mine, as soon as the vaccine is given *poof* they are gone and any food question ends up with Science diet briefings.
= = = = = = = = Sky2 - I hope after a few days or weeks on the prescription diet, you will have an answer of what ails your poor pup and be able to make a decision in his best interest then. If you are going home-cooked, please do research (via independent or vet) for nutritional requirements and appropriate ways to get those nutrients from natural food sources/supplements. and go slow! If you choose processed foods, please do research on protein sources and fillers that are in those foods. The more informed you are the better health your pup can have!
Comments
First, staying on the ID canned if that is what your vet prescribed. Then if you are getting less tummy irritation + firmer stools , I would consider moving to a different food on the list. As Dave said it might take a combination of the ID along with the metronadizole pills to easy irritation to the bowels. The important thing is to get the bowel irritation under control so that food/nutrition is actually being absorbed into your dogs system.
If you move to cooking yourself I would suggest boiled chicken and steamed rice to begin with and then add one veggies at a time. Don't heap too much too many things in at once. If you rush into cooking with too many items it makes it difficult to weed out what will cause flair ups, so make any changes slowly and record what you are doing. Talk to your vet about your plans so things don't get too off course.
Just my two cents for what it's worth
Snf
SKY2: If you are going to cook your own food I'd advise speaking with a vet. holistic or nutritionist first to devise a plan as if you include the same allergen in the diet it will not help as your dog does not have a properly functioning immune system the food itself is not the problem, it is probably her immune reaction to that food whether it be in a can or cooked by you.
I agree with staticfuzz to start with something really innocuous like boiled chicken and steamed rice, (or try the novel protein route) and move on from there slowly. I also would not include grains, these are typical allergens and not a natural ingredient in a dogs diet the nutrients gained from these grains should be from eating the animal that ate the grain, although sometimes they are allergic to the chicken. I also would advise you against using raw foods, dogs have been domesticated for maybe 15,000 years they like us have a reduced capacity to deal with bacterial contamination associated with it and many dogs and cats die from salmonella infections each year, which is also possible for you to get. It is caused from improper handling. The motto in veterinary medicine is first do no harm, you don't want the cure to be worse than the disease.
I would also give the pepcid A/C or famotidine(generic) 1/4th of a tablet 10mg tablet it is a extremely safe drug you can get the human one at the store it is extremely cheap drug too. It just will cut down on overproduction of gastric acid when switching foods. I also think metronidazole is a safe drug and fairly innocuous to use and even a limited 7 day dosage could be really beneficial to cut down on the inflammation in the gut, I can't imagine how uncomfortable I would be if I had diarrhea for three months. Also remember to have lots of water available as diarrhea means she is not absorbing the water she is in-taking because of the inflammation in her gut.
I stand by the diets I listed, although prepared dog diets are not perfect in the least, HIlls and Eukanuba are the only companies to perform research with their food and give it to veterinarians so it is known what is the performance and efficacy of their diets. The diets have been proven effective countless times, however if you have the time and effort a natural diet is best. if you can first isolate the allergen and not include it. If you are against medication, I work with a veterinary acupuncturist occasionally and she says routine acupuncture can greatly help these cases.
For me I would try the metronidazole first just to make sure my baby is feeling better and comfortable right away. I always put myself in the paws of a pet, if you had diarrhea for 3 months would you want to have another 8 weeks or more of diarrhea while waiting for diet changes to take effect. Even if the metronidazole does not work completely it will make her more comfortable while diet changes are in effect.
Also remember that if your are doing a food trial you cannot give treats that different from the food your are doing in the trial as they can effect your outcome, so as treats use the food you are feeding during the trial, I know it sucks but it is the only way to be sure what is causing the problem.
These cases are extremely difficult and frustrating and I applaud your for patience with it, remember to work with your vet before you do anything, making changes without the vets recommendation can set you both back because if your not on the same page it will take longer to figure out what is the cause. You are your own advocate do what you feel is in the best interest of you and your baby.
I hope this helps again!
once again let me know how everything works out!
P.S: SKY2 You live in Ireland! cool, I am visiting Europe and Morocco in December despite the crappy us dollar, and going to dublin for 3 days any other recommendations for things to do or where to go other than dublin?
Raw can still be an option provided the dog has a healthy enough system to handle it. Dry dog foods have had more reported salmonella outbreaks than human grade raw meat sources for a dog's diet, especially in the last few years.
http://www.webmd.com/news/20080515/update-dog-food-salmonella-outbreak
Proper handling must accompany both raw fed and dry food fed dogs.
Canines with an uncompromised immune system can handle the bacteria in properly handled raw meats as their digestive tract is shorter and more acidic and therefore designed to digest within 4-6 hours leaving little time for bacteria to grow and prosper.
Also, with raw, if a dog is allergic to a protein source (i.e. chicken) they may just have issue with the properties of the cooked meat and not have issue with the raw version. My female shiba can handle raw chicken whereas in dry dog food, holistic chicken formulas would give her allergic reactions.
I'm not pushing raw because I feed it, but it should always be an option for an owner and dog that can handle feeding this diet when nothing else seems to be working. Obviously not everyone can do it, and vets usually don't suggest it because I had a lot of issues with trying to consult with my vet before starting and now just see a holistic nutritionist for the dog's dietary needs.
Proper handling is a must, everyone on this forum are great owners, however out there there are plenty of not so great owners, that think a dogs gut can handle anything and leave meat out and feed it even if you would not eat it. This scares vets into not wanting anyone to do it because frankly no matter how people act at the clinic, you have no idea what they do at home. It is probably the exception not the rule that an animal gets infected from the food but many vets are scared that if they recommend it, they would be liable and would feel guilty if it does happen even if the it is 1 in 100,000 they dont want to risk it. And to my knowledge that recent outbreak from commercial food was the only one within recent time and has been fairly reliable in the past. Although with the melamine problem the commercial food industry has a lot to be accountable for. Unfortunately vets still see a high mortality rate with animals infected with salmonella although some are not affected and it can be treated if caught early. Im not a vet yet, working on it, but I would be hesitant to recommend it unless the owner was really enthusiastic and did their research about the pros and cons.
There are two sides to either story, I think both are viable options, I think it depends on your lifestyle, ethics and choices what you think is best for your animal is what you should do, as I know you have their best interest at heart. Here are three links that talk about the risk of salmonella to people in either foods commercial and raw:
check this links out.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/diseases/salmonellosis.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/115688.php
and links about the benefit of raw food:
http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Diet_JohnBurns03.pdf
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
Here is a link to the AVHMA: Holistic vet association
they have a search feature to find a holistic vet in your area.
http://ahvma.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
You are completely right it is difficult to get a vet to agree to raw foods, as vets are trained as scientists first they look for clear research, processed foods have this research so it is hard for them to accept something without much research behind it, its probably a little bit of ego involved too. I agree going to a holistic vet is the best option if you want to try raw food.
That is interesting to note your dog has a problem with cooked meat as opposed to raw meat, I assume this would be the result of of the protein breaking down during cooking and leaving fragments that provoke reactions from the immune system where the whole protein strand would not?
Diagnosing a food allergy is difficult and I wouldn't jump to any conclusions yet; however, I would keep it in mind while moving forward. The reason is actually somewhat complicated, but with certain conditions like IBD dogs can serially acquire food allergies. The nutritionist that I've been working with had one golden retriever that acquired new allergies every 10 days. If you at all suspect that your dog may have food allergies, you want to limit their exposure to different protein or grain sources as much as possible. The fewer he is exposed to now, the more options you have for treatment later.
I would also consider trying a probiotic. Lucy is on one and I just started Joey on one as well. The one Lucy is on is actually 100% vegetarian due to her condition. In fact, I even had to get a new prescription for Lucy's steroids (Budesonide) because the gel-caps they came in are a proteins source. This fits with Andrew's comment about feeding treats as well. When you have a dog with dietary issues, you need to control EVERYTHING they put in their mouth. I don't brush Lucy's teethe because all of the K9 toothepastes are flavored with a protein source.
As for raw, I think Andrew makes another good point. I know I've read in multiple places that dogs with IBD can have sever complications when fed raw. I would rule that out for now, but you could come back to it a year or so down the road once you have things figured out.
For now, I think you should stick to I/D for at least a few weeks to see if there is any improvement. If you don't see an improvement with I/D after a few more weeks, then it will be time to get more aggressive. As well intentioned as most vets are, they don't know a whole lot about nutrition. Even Lucy's internal medicine specialist isn't quite as up on nutrition as he should be and he deals with IBD all the time. To get Lucy's current plan in place which seems to be working really well, I took her to a holistic vet who specializes in clinical nutrition. It took me 8 months to get to that point, but its something to consider.
Good luck!
You are going to be a veterinarian? Thats marvelous! I hope you are more well rounded in the end than my veterinarian. I trust her whole heartedly to diagnose ailments and do surgeries, but I do not trust her immediate turn to Science Diet for nutrition questions.
You know what I would love to see? A veterinary study, not funded by a commercial dog food company, that measures a true raw diet, particularly the prey-model diet that I follow (which is much more than just raw bones and chicken) and its benefits and harms vs. a commercial prescription diet, benefit and harms in dealing with ailments and allergies in a biologically appropriate way.
In this life, everyone is ruled by the all mighty dollar so we probably won't see that study any time soon.
BUT no matter what diet you choose, you have to look to your dog for the answers. For me, I see the benefit in all three of my dogs that the prey-model raw has given them already in a relatively short period of time. And I put in two years of research before having the stones to go through with it, but I realized the risks and realized the benefits and after all that research, the benefits far outweighed the risks. Their energy, their stools, their coats, their dental health, everything is optimal now, even if I do hate handling organs with a passion! I'm still trying to compile all my internet resources onto my blog to help others make informed decisions and compiled binders full of other resources too!
BUT There is risk in every single diet.
So whether its home cooked, commercial processed grain in or grain free or raw diet, I think ample research has to be done beyond the veterinary office and do what is best for your dog, because if most vets are like mine, as soon as the vaccine is given *poof* they are gone and any food question ends up with Science diet briefings.
= = = = = = = =
Sky2 - I hope after a few days or weeks on the prescription diet, you will have an answer of what ails your poor pup and be able to make a decision in his best interest then. If you are going home-cooked, please do research (via independent or vet) for nutritional requirements and appropriate ways to get those nutrients from natural food sources/supplements. and go slow! If you choose processed foods, please do research on protein sources and fillers that are in those foods. The more informed you are the better health your pup can have!