fear behavior?
Forgive me, I'm still trying to put the pieces of this together in my head, so if this is a bit incoherent I apologize in advance.
I've posted before about Joey's leash excitement. When he sees someone he knows or someone walking a dog he pulls like crazy to get to them. He tends to greet people and other dogs rudely by jumping up on them, pawing at them, and barking excitedly.
The other side of the coin which didn't really stick out in my mind as being important until today is that when he sees someone out of the ordinary either while on leash or from the window of the house, he barks and displays a suspicious posture. He has done this since the day I got him, which is why I started praising him for greeting people (which of course may be a partial cause for the lunging I'm dealing with now :-/). Anyway, I digress. When this happens, he gets lower to the ground and his bark becomes more prolonged and slightly higher pitched. Rather than a "ruff ruff" type noise its more of a "ruuuruuuuruuuruuuuuuruuuuuuuuuruuuuruuuuruu" type noise. Sorry if that doesn't make sense. The best I can describe it is a warning bark. I always put him in a sit and try to redirect him with a "watch me" which usually works. Typically he does this from a distance so we usually end the exercise with praise for him ignoring the cause for alarm and walking in the other direction.
Today, I took him to the dog park for some play time and he was doing great as usual. Running like a madman the entire time. After about 50 minutes, he wandered toward the back of the park where a couple was sitting on a bench. He ran toward them and stopped about 30 feet away, plopped his butt on the ground and let our his warning bark. I was more than 200 feet away so I quickly walked over and called to get his attention as I was walking up. It took me a few seconds to get there and he either didn't hear or ignored my first few attempts to get his attention. When I got within about 50 feet of him, he turned his head toward me, let out a few more barks, and then got up and walked away. I called his name and said "come" which he enthusiastically responded to. When he arrived in front of me, I praised him a lot, clipped his leash on and walked him toward the couple on the bench. We got about 15 feet away and he started barking and lowering himself again. I put him in a sit and did a "watch me" which he did ok at. After a few seconds of him learning to the side to look around me at the couple on the bench, he finally looked away. I praised again and took him closer. All this happened on a loose leash. We got close enough for him to sniff their hands which they graciously held out for him. He did so reluctantly. I put him in a sit at the couple's feet and unclipped his leash. He stayed for a few seconds, and then went off to play with a boxer. I thanked the couple for their understanding and chatted with them for a few minutes. I then called him to come and walked toward the gate to leave. He happily trotted along within a 10 foot radius of me the whole way.
I figured the experience on the whole was a good one, but I was also playing it over again in my head as we left. When we got outside the gate, there was a group of three people sitting on the curb by the parking lot, one of which was a little girl. I walked Joey in their direction and when we got within five feet, it happened all over again---butt on the floor, low head, high pitch prolonged bark. At this point I was so shaken by this I just turned around and walked to the car. I didn't think I was in the right state of mind to try to turn it into a training experience.
And come to think of it, he did something similar at my BBQ on Monday. My friends brought over their 6 week old baby (fricking adorable BTW). Joey was showing interest in the baby and wanted to jump up to smell it. It didn't take much effort to stop him, but I thought it would be a good idea to put him on leash and allow him to get close enough to smell in a controlled environment. When we tried, he displayed the same body posture he did at the park today (no barking though). I grabbed a bunch of treats and had Sara (the baby's mom) give him treats while holding the baby. We progressed to putting the treat on her leg about an inch away from the baby. He still seemed unsure of himself though.
So, given all of this, I'm now kind of freaking out that I may have missed some important socialization for him. This is pretty classic fear behavior right? He is now 7.5 months old, could he just be going through another fear stage? Any suggestions on how to continue working with him on this? On how to prevent it from escalating? Do you think this fear behavior is related to his leash excitement? Am I just freaking out too much or is this typical Shiba behavior?
Wow, that was a lot of questions. Sorry, but I'm a little puzzled/upset/concerned about it all.
Thanks in advance!
I've posted before about Joey's leash excitement. When he sees someone he knows or someone walking a dog he pulls like crazy to get to them. He tends to greet people and other dogs rudely by jumping up on them, pawing at them, and barking excitedly.
The other side of the coin which didn't really stick out in my mind as being important until today is that when he sees someone out of the ordinary either while on leash or from the window of the house, he barks and displays a suspicious posture. He has done this since the day I got him, which is why I started praising him for greeting people (which of course may be a partial cause for the lunging I'm dealing with now :-/). Anyway, I digress. When this happens, he gets lower to the ground and his bark becomes more prolonged and slightly higher pitched. Rather than a "ruff ruff" type noise its more of a "ruuuruuuuruuuruuuuuuruuuuuuuuuruuuuruuuuruu" type noise. Sorry if that doesn't make sense. The best I can describe it is a warning bark. I always put him in a sit and try to redirect him with a "watch me" which usually works. Typically he does this from a distance so we usually end the exercise with praise for him ignoring the cause for alarm and walking in the other direction.
Today, I took him to the dog park for some play time and he was doing great as usual. Running like a madman the entire time. After about 50 minutes, he wandered toward the back of the park where a couple was sitting on a bench. He ran toward them and stopped about 30 feet away, plopped his butt on the ground and let our his warning bark. I was more than 200 feet away so I quickly walked over and called to get his attention as I was walking up. It took me a few seconds to get there and he either didn't hear or ignored my first few attempts to get his attention. When I got within about 50 feet of him, he turned his head toward me, let out a few more barks, and then got up and walked away. I called his name and said "come" which he enthusiastically responded to. When he arrived in front of me, I praised him a lot, clipped his leash on and walked him toward the couple on the bench. We got about 15 feet away and he started barking and lowering himself again. I put him in a sit and did a "watch me" which he did ok at. After a few seconds of him learning to the side to look around me at the couple on the bench, he finally looked away. I praised again and took him closer. All this happened on a loose leash. We got close enough for him to sniff their hands which they graciously held out for him. He did so reluctantly. I put him in a sit at the couple's feet and unclipped his leash. He stayed for a few seconds, and then went off to play with a boxer. I thanked the couple for their understanding and chatted with them for a few minutes. I then called him to come and walked toward the gate to leave. He happily trotted along within a 10 foot radius of me the whole way.
I figured the experience on the whole was a good one, but I was also playing it over again in my head as we left. When we got outside the gate, there was a group of three people sitting on the curb by the parking lot, one of which was a little girl. I walked Joey in their direction and when we got within five feet, it happened all over again---butt on the floor, low head, high pitch prolonged bark. At this point I was so shaken by this I just turned around and walked to the car. I didn't think I was in the right state of mind to try to turn it into a training experience.
And come to think of it, he did something similar at my BBQ on Monday. My friends brought over their 6 week old baby (fricking adorable BTW). Joey was showing interest in the baby and wanted to jump up to smell it. It didn't take much effort to stop him, but I thought it would be a good idea to put him on leash and allow him to get close enough to smell in a controlled environment. When we tried, he displayed the same body posture he did at the park today (no barking though). I grabbed a bunch of treats and had Sara (the baby's mom) give him treats while holding the baby. We progressed to putting the treat on her leg about an inch away from the baby. He still seemed unsure of himself though.
So, given all of this, I'm now kind of freaking out that I may have missed some important socialization for him. This is pretty classic fear behavior right? He is now 7.5 months old, could he just be going through another fear stage? Any suggestions on how to continue working with him on this? On how to prevent it from escalating? Do you think this fear behavior is related to his leash excitement? Am I just freaking out too much or is this typical Shiba behavior?
Wow, that was a lot of questions. Sorry, but I'm a little puzzled/upset/concerned about it all.
Thanks in advance!
Comments
Some questions for you to broad over & maybe help us pinpoint the root; How many different people did he meet a day up until he was 12 weeks old? Is there a connection between the people he growls at? [ ie; men, women, children, etc. ] Was there a period in time where he missed out on key socialization? [ ie; was there a time when you might have been to busy to socialize him, for a period of time; like a month? ] Does he do this around dogs? Does he do this only with strangers? Has he ever done this with people he knows very well? Does he do this regardless of the environment? [ ie; at home, dog park, vet, etc. ]
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Snf
When you say he lowers is body, is it like he crouches a little [with a flat back], or does he go into a bow [play bow]?
My opinion...
Well first off, getting him to watch you is, imo, the perfect thing to do. If a dog is uncomfortable or fearful in a situation you want them to look at you for guidance. That is your job as their owner - to protect them and reassure them [but DON'T coddle them]. I think you handled this situation perfectly.
As for what this barking may be, I'm gonna agree that it's fear, or maybe not fear but confusion.
Maui will do that same bark at objects he doesn't understand - he tends to do that at round things, like the hose. Maui will do this in a play bow tho - which send off a confusing message.
Ahi will do that bark when she hears something and she doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
Lani does that bark when she is in pure fear panic mode.
So, I gave you those examples because that type of bark seems to manifest itself in our dogs in different ways and in very different dogs - but it always seems to point to disorientation or confusion - but NOT ALWAYS fear.
Ahi is not fearful of much at all - Maui is super reactive but not fearful of objects - Lani is fearful of everything.
In this case maybe he was confused by something they had on, or the bench... maybe he just didn't understand the situation. Add that with a fear stage that he maybe going through and I would expect a response from him like that.
The trick is to get him to understand what it is without imprinting him with a fear - and it sounds like you did an AMAZING job at that - better than I could have done, imo.
I wouldn't worry - just keep socializing him and doing what you are doing. I think you and Joey are fine.
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Romi: Also great points! Our schedule has been totally hectic since surgery. At first they were completely separate. I've been slowly reintegrating them over the past few weeks with various activities, but they still do a lot of things separately. Now they are together more, but they still can't play and be crazy together. And I've cut back slightly on Joey's exercise this past week so he and Lucy can do more together. Throw in the fact that my roomate left the country a few weeks ago and his routine hasn't been stable for more than a month. And now that you mention it, this behavior has started to become more common in that time period.
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Damn I love this forum. Thanks a lot guys!
As the others have mentioned, it's probably a stage he's going through. [ isn't the 6~8month period considered the rebellious teenage years for dogs? lol ]
I'm sure as long as you keep redirecting him the way you've been, eventually he'll grow out of it. [ as much as a Shiba will grow out of things anyways ;D ]~
Pay attention to Lani - the others give warning barks, and Lani gives warning barks [the short grumbles] then goes into full freak out bark - the very fast short barks with her head pointing up - that is a fear bark/confusion.
Is it like that? [but obviously more Shiba-ish]
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Fuji runs strait to the window and Kona stays at the door - Lani on the other hand is going between the window and door and looks confused and kinda disorientated.
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Also at his age he could be going through a phase where he barks at things that are strange. You seem to be dealing with it properly. It is ok that you didn't take him to work on a second learning experience in a row.
My first thought was the same as Brad's. Were they wearing something that triggered the behavior? A hat, cargo pants, etc. Or, perhaps, they were holding something or positioned in a consistent manner? Of course, it could also be a particular scent that Joey's not familiar with and doesn't like. At any rate, I'm not so certain it is fear bark - maybe a warning bark.
I kinda wish parents would teach their kids how to greet a dog correctly. Instead of screaming "COME HERE DOGGIE!" and chasing after it and scaring the crap out of dogs.
Although, Toby's warning growl sounds like he's sneezing/coughing and doing the rurruuurruuu thing at the same time.
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Thanks all for the reassurance. It really caught me off guard.
I'm fairly convinced now that he's going through a bit of a fear stage. On our walk this morning we walked past this statue that we have walked past probably close to 100 times, although not in the last few weeks. Joey let out a muffled bark as we went by, so I stopped and took him closer. Same body language as we approached. Finally, Lucy walked by him and went to sniff it at which point he got the confidence to do the same. So it seems like its a combination of a lot of things.
And, I'm starting to realize more and more that Lucy actually is the dominant one of the two. When it comes to play or introductions, I had interpreted Joey as being in charge. But recently, I've noticed that Joey wont begin eating until Lucy has, he licks her face a lot, and he generally seems less confident without her.
Anyway, thanks everyone for the suggestions and reassurance!
You are probably right about Lucy too, since sh is a female - a female Shiba - she will probably be the dominant one.
If he seems confused the Lani is in that video I would do what you have been doing and focus on the "watch me" thing. Also the "touch" idea Patrice gave is a great one - any thing that gets him to seek out your guidance when he is unsure is a good thing, because then you have more control - imo.
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If you want something to gauge/benchmark Joey's bark mode "level" with, when Lani is in that barking mode it is impossible to get her attention, she will not stop. We can walk up to her and grab her and she doesn't even react.
So the fact that you can redirect Joey and get his attention says a lot to me - he is not over-the-top fearful like Lani, he is just probably going through a stage where he is not 100% confident. IMO
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When we saw the behaviorist for Kitsune, he explained these fear stages of development, especially in neutered males, and that if the signs are not seen and the behaviors not addressed, a negative sequence of habits might be instilled in the dog. With Kitsu, we have this stance and freak barking a great deal whenever someone walks by the house or he a low crouch and mumble when he sees people in the distance while on the leash or he'll freak bark if someone approaches him and we have not put him into a sit-stay. He has a major hesitance to even leave the house or doorway for walks - he is that fearful. We constantly have to redirect him, and we constantly have to be consistent because this was never dealt with when it should have been during his first year of development.
So what do we do now?
We have "watch me" and "sit, stay" for redirection, and we've been working on "say hi" at the dog park for resolution. If he has a hesitance or issue with a particular person at the dog park, we put him into sit-stay and say "say hi", he'll stand up while the person holds out a hand (palm up) to him, he'll sniff it, sometimes let them pet him, but mostly just a sniff and he's gone. We also found that agility (or obedience, etc) boosts his confidence. Having my husband or Tsuki around boosts his confidence too. Confidence plays a major role here too I think.
Training only when you are in a positive mood is a must!
Hang in there, you're doing great.
It might certainly be that then. It does not seem that you did not socialized him enough. My oldest shiba of 23 months old is fearful in certain specific situation: big shopping center, shops for animals, big closed space with a lot of people (i.e. dog show are not possible, he is freaking out) although he is really fine going with us to the restaurant, to the city center, family meeting and others. He does not like big unknown objects as well. So when we introduce e.g. a new furniture or a bike, he has never seen before, he is barking and is shaking with the low tail. It takes 5 minutes to reassure him. He improved and is better now with this kind of situation but still... Although we did socialize him from his 9 weeks, took him to lots of different places etc. He was like that from day one so genetic? something happened with the breeder? His step brother is the opposite so no conclusion can be taken. What's the odds? We will never know. In the meantime, I try to redirect him when it happens and for the rest he is a great dog.
Sorry I did disgress...
Congrat on how you handled it. It is not always easy to have the contenance and patience to do it and not that obvious to meet people that have the patience to participate in a odedience/training session with a dog they do not know.
Despite my best efforts, Joey seemed to be getting worse. I have figured out that waist to chest height objects (like garbage cans, tall boxes, newspaper dispensers, strollers, children, etc.) seem to be what set him off. To handle this, I have taken two approaches. The first is redirection. I have used this primarily when the object in question is approaching us. If I catch it in time (i.e. if a stroller doesn't round the corner right in front of us) I have been putting Joey in a sit and doing some basic obedience with him, but focusing on "watch me". This worked reasonably well for a while, but in the last week or so he has been ignoring me and focusing on his fear trigger. The second approach is flooding. If we approach an object he is afraid of, I will allow him to approach it at his own pace treating him whenever he offers a movement in its direction. Again, I had some good progress with that until the end of last week. It got to the point where he was starting to shut down. Rather than move toward or away from the object in question, he would freeze completely and become unaware of his surroundings.
At that point I decided that his fear stage might be a bit more than I was capable of handling on my own, so I called a behaviorist. I got a great referral from Brad (THANKS BRAD!!!), and after speaking with her on the phone for 30 minutes, I scheduled an appointment. She came this morning and it went really well. Joey seemed to respond to her very well (although I think the hot dogs had something to do with it :-)).
The visit went as follows. I had filled out a pretty detailed questionnaire about Joey's behavior in various situations, response to commands, reactions to events, etc. before she came. We spent the first hour discussing my responses and my approach to training him when he was in his "aroused" state (fearful or his leash excitement). The main finding of this discussion is that he is not an axious or fearful dog, he struggles with arousal in certain situations. That was very refreshing to hear, although not totally surprising. She explained how even though most dogs grow out of their fear stage, it is best not to just leave them to their devices as it can imprint fear and lead to "fear chaining". She actually used Maui as an example of how dogs chain their fears. She explained how Maui started off afraid of thunderstorms, then associated the click of the power conditioner on the computer with the thunderstorms, then transferred that to the TV because it made a similar sound, and finally to the remote control since that was an indicator that a click was about to come from the TV. Fascinating!
Anyway, I digress a bit. She explained how often times with primitive breeds like Shibas, they don't see typical fear responses and reaction to training that they expect with Labs or Goldens. Where those breeds tend to fight or flight and respond well to flooding as a result, primitive breeds tend to shut down and freeze much like Joey was. As a result, even though I could lead him close to an object using a treat as lure, he was not benefiting from approaching the object and, in fact, I was actually adding to his stress. This was probably a contributing factor to why he escalated a bit recently. In order for him to benefit from flooding, he would have to actually take interest in the object after getting close to it, rather than take the reward and retreat immediately which is what he was doing.
The approach to training him to overcome his fears is basically to train him to ignore the object, rather than training him to become comfortable with it. There are two components. The first is to lower his "arousal threshold" or the distance from the object at which he becomes aroused. Since there are many situations where this just isn't possible (like having to walk by a garbage can without stepping out into traffic), the second component is to teach him to "hide" behind me while moving past objects that scare him. To train the hide behavior, we'll start in the house and build up to getting him to stand just behind and beside me on command. Then we'll transfer this behavior outside and begin asking him to stay in that position as I move forward a step at a time. Then we'll practice doing this when we are approaching an object he doesn't like. I'll be using a clicker to work on this.
To lower his threshold, we will practice with objects that scare him to determine the distance at which he enters his fear state and then begin working just beyond that. It was actually very interesting. To demonstrate Joey's fear, I took a big, chest height, cardboard box out of the garage while she was holding his leash. Joey's response was basically what I expected. His body lowered, tail went down, and he barked; however, when he backed away, she followed (which I had not been doing). Once he got to a distance he was comfortable with, he just sat down and looked at her. She said, "Wow, that was easy. I think we know what his threshold distance is." Like I had been doing earlier, we will practice basic obedience and other focus games so he learns to focus on me and to ignore the object. The theory is that over time, he will associate objects he fears with focusing on me and performing other basic obedience commands. As a result, he will no longer focus on the objects he fears and therefore be able to approach them without becoming aroused. She felt we could achieve this in a couple of months. :-)
Lastly, his leash excitement. She didn't seem to share my level of concern with it, but did understand why I am concerned. To address this, we will be doing similar threshold work. The best exercise for this is the "approach and retreat" where we approach something that gets him excited like a friend or a doggy buddy and when he becomes excited we turn around and walk the other way. Here's the thing, I had been practicing this with him, but it wasn't working. Here's why. When we retreated, Joey would walk away with me, but he would look back and continue to focus on the object of his arousal. So, to complete the exercise, I will be using a gentle leader in conjunction with his regular collar. I'll use the regular collar primarily, but I will have a second leash attached to the gentle leader so I can redirect his head, and therefore gaze, away from his trigger.
On the whole, I am REALLY glad I decided to get some assistance with this. She reinforced a lot of the things I had already been doing, but pointed out a few important things I was doing incorrectly. At some point in our discussion, I told her that I've learned enough about dog behavior to know that I don't know anything. She laughed, and said you and me both, but praised me for acknowledging my limitations. So, add me to list of people who now strongly believe a qualified behaviorist who uses positive training techniques can make all the difference (assuming things work out of course :-)).
Before you know it, he'll be OK with the things he fears now. The fear stage might be enhancing his fears right now too.
It also sounds like you have a good plan in place for Joey and you did the right thing by contacting her. Like I have said before, sometimes the greatest value in meeting with a behaviorist comes from them just assuring you are on the right path and then fine tuning things.
The hide behind you thing is very interesting, and smart - seems like something that may help with Lani too. When you learn about things like that, and you realize its our job to protect our dogs and there is nothing wrong with doing so - you realize how much someone like Cesar Milan is just royally f#cking up a lot of dogs. No doubt his approach would be to force the dog to not hide and to force the dog to confront his fears - jeez that makes me mad/sad. anyway, sorry...
Sounds like things went GREAT! I'm happy to hear this! I think Joey is probably happy you did this too.
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I am glad it worked out with a minimum of fuss. I know I have said it before, it is so hard to suggest ideas on a forum without seeing the dog's reactions first hand. I hope all the past advice did not set him back too much. It sounds like you have been handling joey really well.
Keep up the efforts and patience, it will pay off. Each dog is different so you have to go with what works for your situation. Over the course of a lifetime dogs change (as people do) so it is a balance to remain flexible and open to new solutions as the Shibas pull out new topics for your consideration (LOL).
Snf