Was this one of you? Dog Whisperer techniques on a Shiba...

edited November 2008 in Shiba Inu (柴犬)
I was curious to try and do some internet searches on the Dog Whisperer episodes that contained Shiba Inus and I came across this:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Cesar-Milan-Dog-Training-the-Dog-Whisperer

I also concur with this persons findings (especially the Alpha roll, as I found out the hard way).

Again, I'm just curious if this was one of the fellow forum members that created this entry.

Jesse

Comments

  • edited November -1
    Nice find Jesse. I now its really popular to hate Cesar right now, and I mostly disagree with his techniques. I like that article because its balanced and, IMO, presents a well thought out analysis of some of his approaches (some good, some bad).

    The worrying thing though, is the poll at the bottom of the page. 75% think he's "Mostly good for dogs" whereas only 19% think he's "Mostly bad for dogs". :-/
  • edited November -1
    Ugh, what I hate is that my school seems to support him a lot.

    His book is in the bookstore on campus, and there was a poster of him in the computer lab in the library with a dog that said 'READ!'
  • edited November -1
    Yeah apparently this person has an ongoing blog about Cesar Milan's techniques as well as other things in general about her Shiba.

    http://hubpages.com/hub/Popular-Cesar-Milan-Topics

    While I may not agree with everything she's found, I'm for the most part in agreement with her and am enjoying reading through the entries.

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    When I first started watching Ceasar, I knew nothing about dog behaviour at all and I wasquickly obsessed with his show. I was enthralled with how effective his techniques were and it really got me interested in dog behaviour and psychology. I read his two books (I really liked the first but the second stunk) and from there bought book after book and I'm now officially hooked on this subject (I think my fav right now is Patricia McConell). After more reading and more knowledge, I've done a 180 with him and am not overly crazy about his techniques. I think the biggest problem is that the average joe thinks (as I used to) that his stuff is great and we should be following his rules to a tee. What they don't realize is that many of his extreme stuff is done only on extreme cases and will likely do more harm than good for the average dog. I still think he has some great principals about structure, many of which were highlighted in that article, but a lot his dominance stuff is a bit much for my liking.

    I'm not sure if it's available in outside of Canada, but has anyone seen Brad Pattison's show (At the end of my leash)? He is a pretty extreme guy but he's very popular here and apparently he is a top notch trainer and brilliant handler. He does a lot of ambilicle(sp?) stuff where you strap the dog to your waist for a couple hours a day around the house, and do stuff like weve in and out of obstacles while you're out walking, the idea being to get the dog to focus on you. Several shiba owners around here went to his seminar and were very impressed.

    I guess the bottom line is the best thing anyone can do is read as much as they can and develop they're own happy medium on what they are comfortable with. No can ever go wrong with more information right!?!?
  • edited November -1
    lots of love, attention and patience are the ultimate techniques... 8)
  • edited November -1
    I actually first started paying attention to Caesar Milan because I heard he practiced some potentially harmful techniques. So I watched his show a couple of times and I didn't really see anything that was that bad. I've never seen a show where he did an alpha roll, that's for sure.

    I read the monks of new skete puppy book a couple of weeks ago, and Caeser seems to be in the same realm as them, from what I can tell.
  • edited November 2008
    This is such a good discussion and so important ....


    Cesar knows his dogs well and he himself handles things accordingly (for his own dogs) knowing when to step in. However, I am NOT comfortable with how he conveys what is going on to the general public. His explanations are weak and the show seems to stretch the miracles of what is being accomplished. He has evolved some as a trainer over time but I am still uncomfortable with the dominance theory which he espouses, and how to work through some of the reactive behaviors of his guest canines, specifically using snapping leash corrections and roll overs. There are better and more sound ways to deal with specific behavior problems. In many cases I think he is causing more trauma then eliminating it.

    However, if nothing else though he has gotten America's attention about dogs needing training.

    As mentioned in the article/blogg etc. Aggression begets aggression and with the spitzy breeds it is best to be a benevolent leader in the majority of cases. Jessica posted a good discussion on this just yesterday or day before. On this forum you can search on behavior and I think you can bring it up that way.

    I believe it is important for anyone to take a look at the leading theories of behaviorists such McConnell, Pryor, Dunbar, and trainer Miller when developing a framework for their own dogs. There is a book list on the forum to help out as well. Read and really think about what is going on. When you view Ceasar also view with the sound off. Don't let too much chatter confuse you when you really look at the interactions occurring during his show. Learning body language is a huge skill set to master. Getting the scoop through professional behaviorists who have developed their skill set over many years and several species can only build a strong foundation for each pet owner if they take into account the best practices reiterated through the literature and backing it with sound positive motivation class.

    Thanks Jesse for bringing this link to everyone's attention.
    Snf
  • edited November -1
    In the shiba episodes, he addressed some very good issues I think a lot of shiba owners in general face: running away, not recalling, "aggression" or protective behavior, trying to own everything/posessiveness. In the back of mind, however, I worry about the dog owner at home who has not heeded the disclaimer at the start of the show and tries to flip their out of control german shep or cane or mastiff on it's back and wonders why they get bitten. His intentions appear to be genuine and I believe he is a animal advocate, but the methods seem extreme at times. His message is clear however- be a responsible dog owner, don't treat your dogs like people.
  • edited November 2008
    SnF, you made a great point, If nothing else though he has gotten America's attention about dogs needing training. There will always be silly people who try to do things they see on TV without any background information and get themselves in trouble (and this goes for way more than just dog training), but if it gets some people with problem dogs to seek out information and/or professional help, then it is doing some good.
  • edited November -1
    hi all
    i have looked at the links on this great post and they are really great and informative, i have a question regarding leads, i have been using just a collar and lead with my shiba however recently bought a 'slip rope' type collar (the ones Cesar uses on the program) to try and make it easier with the side jerk technique he uses, to avert the dogs attention, however after reading some of the material i am wondering if this a safe coller to use, my dog doesnt really pull me along so we are now walking with a loose leash, but does anyone think one leash is better than another with shibas?
  • edited November -1
    I always use a harness and lead to walk my shibas. I am too nervous about them slipping a colar and bolting down the street. Plus I feel more in control of them when I have them in their harness.
  • edited November -1
    I would recommend a properly adjusted martingale or limited slip collar over a slip collar. Slip collars are essentially choke chains and they can do more damage than good, especially if you have a determined hunter like a Shiba. They are useful at animal shelters where one size fits all and dogs are only walked between kennels and runs, but even then there is a risk.

    A harness is great if your dog behaves well on lead, but they don't allow leash corrections like a collar does. You could try the "easy walk" harness from Premier Products. It connects to the leash in the front of the dog's chest (as opposed to their back) which enables you to redirect their body much more easily than a standard harness.
  • edited November 2008
    Daves tips are great. The adjusted martingale works well as does the easy walk harness.

    IMO Cesar is marketing products for his own type of dog he deals with most, not shibas. Shibas have unique shape and structure that requires careful attention to how collars and halters fit.

    Dibbs... collar pops and snaps can cause health issues with Shibas. I have seen too many with trachea problems. Shibas have a high drive and strong chest assisting with forward momentum. Thus their leverage causes issues when training with a choke chain when it is snapped back and misaligning the spine. Seek and alternative method with a halter aided with techniques via a good trainer. Start with someone who can give advice on clicker training. Physical force is something that should be avoided, instead use of motivation is best to get the behaviors you want.

    Snf

    PS: I forgot to mention, with the easy walk harness, don't forget to keep a regular collar and tags on the dog even if you use the harness. It is always best to have some form of ID as a just in case measure.
  • edited November -1
    thanks for the advice i'll ditch the slip collar!!!
  • edited November -1
    Got this message from the other meetup group (non-shiba) that I am involved with:

    The star of the Emmy-nominated hit series "Dog Whisperer" brings his magic and wisdom about dogs and dog psychology to this unique live special event. Fans of the show and dog lovers alike will be immersed in Cesar's world for three compelling hours, as the best-selling author of Cesar's Way reveals his secrets to happier, healthier relationships between humans and their canine companions. Participants will come to understand how people can inadvertently play a role in their dog's behavioral "issues"; but also, how to change this dynamic by learning how to see the world through a dog's eyes. Using his gift as an educator and entertainer plus state-of-the-art multimedia to illustrate his unique concepts and ideas.- and most importantly, his famous "calm-assertive energy" - Cesar keeps audiences spellbound as he opens them up to amazing new insights about man's best friend - and also, about themselves. See how Cesar’s "fulfillment formula" changes lives as he works to make the world a better place... one dog at a time. No dogs, other than service dogs, are permitted at the seminar.

    $24 for the cheap seats - $249 guarantees a meet and greet with Cesar, no dogs allowed other than service dogs.
  • edited November -1
    Im SO there!
    *gag*
  • edited November -1
    $249 - meet Ceasar
    $20k - bail

    Being able to beat the shizzle out of America's "hero" priceless :P
  • edited November -1
    Rina - Bail shouldn't be that high - first time offense (I hope) for assault in Georgia, providing no permanent damage is doing should be around $5k
  • edited November -1
    Even better muwahahaha!

    And I'm quite proud of not knowing how much bail should be :P
  • edited November -1
    I will bail you out Rina, just so I can here the story of how you knocked that guy out! HA HA,....
  • edited November -1
    Man I wish dogs were allowed, I would so make the trip just to let him meet the Ahi monster. I would LOVE to watch the "Dog Whisperer" get violated by Ahi. lol

    ----

    I just wanted to add to SnF's PS - With our dogs we are able to keep their normal martingale collar attached to the leash AND attach the easy walk harness to the leash. This helps us feel safer in case the got out of one. Kaia has been able to easily move her little paw right out of the easy walks [not that she needs an easy walk anyway]. So we were happy that we had her collar on too and attached when she did that the first time.

    ----
  • edited November -1
    Brad-I would help pay for that!!! His shoosing would work a bit on Ahi!
  • edited November -1
    Rina- I'm glad you don't know how bail would run - I shake my head because I've been that friend that gets the phone call of, "uh, yeah, well I got into a bit of trouble and I could really use your help..." Thankfully, my friends have all (mostly) settled down and I haven't done a bail run in almost 10 years. Unfortunately, I know a bailbonds guy and have gotten pretty good at being able to guesstimate what the bond will be.

    Brad - I would love to see Ahi violate as well.
  • edited November -1
    Brad tell them she's a service dog :P She's here to service your daily violating quota :D
  • edited November -1
    HA HA HA, Im craking up thinking about a "SHHHHOOOOSSSSHHH" on Ahi...HA HA HA.
  • edited November -1
    Service Dog - LMAO
  • edited November -1
    Ahi would so make him into her bitch...
  • edited November -1
    OMG Ahi HAS to violate him!
    I keep trying to teach my mom why he is so volatile...Any tips?
  • edited November 2008
    Tell her it's as much a reality show as any other of those contest realtiy shows ("Survivor", "Real World", etc.) and that they only portray what worked and never show any of his failed behavioral attempts or failed cases. The only thing any one should gleam from him is that the owners need more training than the dogs and that they need to listen to what their dog is saying instead of applying training techniques cart blanch.

    Jesse
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