Dogs vs Children

edited December 2008 in General
With the pregnant ladies taking over the thread and worries of our animals adjusting to the new baby, it makes me ask..when do you think that someone has a valid excuse to rehome a dog (or any animal) because of a new addition? So many people use the new baby as an excuse to get rid of their family members because they don't want to deal with it. Where's the line between "poor excuse" and "valid excuse"?

Comments

  • edited November -1
    In my opinion there would never be a valid excuse to rid of my pup. She's my first "child" she came first, she means so much to me; and while I don't plan to have human children, should I ever change my mind, Mylie would never ever ever find herself in danger of loosing her beloved home.
  • edited December 2008
    This is a hard one :(

    I think a valid excuse would be a serious financial burden OR the baby is allergic to the pup.


    But even these can be gotten around I suppose if one were to really try, which means there are excuses that are close to valid, but never really truly valid.


    I mean, an excuse is an excuse and never really acceptable anyway...


    Personally, I don't think I could ever do it though. But then again I do NOT want children anyway. ~
  • edited November -1
    One thing I learned in life, never say never. You really don't know how you'll act in a situation until you find yourself in it.
  • edited November -1
    Worse case scenario - financial difficulties or severe illness - I'm lucky enough to have my mom who would take both Mylie and myself in until I could get back on my feet. I took on the responsibility of caring for Mylie for the rest of her life and I'm committed. To me, she's no different than a child. I suppose others in different difficult circumstances may not have another choice, but it's very clear for myself. :)
  • edited November -1
    What if Mylie attacked your child without being provoked and now your child is paralyzed from the waist down? Can you in good conscience keep them in the same house? Sure you can try to get a behaviorist to try to find out what the issue was but can you really have them living together?
  • edited November -1
    Tough decision, and an unfortunate chain of events :/ Good thing I don't like the idea of children very much at this point in my life.
  • edited December 2008
    Tosca was given over to the rescue I eventually got her from after living happily with a couple for nearly her whole life they had twins and said she "didn't want to love them like they [the parents] did." (Quote from the national shiba rescue site where I first saw her. I remember it because it bothered me for some reason. I just knew this dog wasn’t un-loving.) She and I have had some passing experiences with toddlers and infants and she's not vicious, just frightened. I think she could've been worked with, but I don't know what she was like with them or what steps they took pre-babies to get her used to the idea. All is well now, of course. Their loss is most definitely my gain.

    Allergies aside, I don't think I would be able to give up my "little furry baby". (Yes, I call her that.) I would do everything in my power to acclimate her to the changes to come and work as diligently as possible to insure that my Tosca would never find herself homeless again.

    *edit- If everything - absolutely everything - didn't work, then I would have to assume that she was destined to brighten some other lucky person's home and attempt to help find them for her. It would, however, break my heart.
  • edited November -1
    Let's try to keep this on a more light-hearted note, this is a little depressing <3 ~
  • edited November -1
    We had our kids first, then dog #1(kids 7 and 14 years of age), and now Josephine (kids 20 and 27 years of age). Everyone has been very happy with the arrangements! Kids and dogs go along very well together!

    I think Rina hit the nail on the head. Hard to know what choices we each would make until we are faced with very difficult decisions/choices (for whatever reason we can't fathom now). Hopefully if it were not possible to give your dog (or your child, for that matter) a life and the care it deserved there would be opportunity for a loving replacement. Probably best to talk about it with nearest and dearest friends and family now while everything seems rosy and like you'll never part, so that in a true emergency that would not be yet another unbearable situation to deal with.

    As family members visited us for Thanksgiving, both my sister and my niece said (partway in jest) that Josephine could come home with them any time. Same was true of Joe, our former dog. I think we are fortunate in having (several) people in the immediate family that would step up and offer a wonderful home if the need arose.
  • edited November -1
    With allergies too, it depends on what you're allergic to and how bad it is. You might be fine with vacuuming and dusting often, having a HEPA filter, not having them lick you (ie Brad :P), not having them scratch you, taking meds, etc but some peoples' allergies are too severe for anything to work.

    Sadly if you Google "preventing animal allergies" the number 1 (if not the only) suggestion is giving up your animals.
  • edited November -1
    Sorry for the depressing tone but I don't see how this could be a lighthearted subject Osy.
  • edited November -1
    To make it even more depressing:

    Our previous dog (a mini dachshund) was very undersocialized and reacted poorly to many situations because of it. She did not like strangers, and never really did well with unknown children. My step father didn't treat her as a family member(wouldn't even play or cuddle with her) and as a result, she didn't like him much either. He claimed on several occasions that she bit him, which I don't think was true. I think it's likely that she snarled at him and maybe snapped, but I don't think she would have bit. When my brother arrived she was about 8 years old, and starting to get cranky on top of her other issues. In general we tried to keep the two of them separate, but one night my mom and I were out and she was left with my brother and step father. I guess at some point my brother had cornered her, and was poking at her or pulling her ears... and since she had no place to run, she reacted in the only way she could. She bit him and broke the skin. I came home to my dog hiding in my room, and step father downstairs rocking a screaming toddler.

    Of course he insisted the dog had to go. She was a danger to the entire family. I was furious. It would have never happened if he actually paid attention to what my brother was doing and paid respect to her boundaries by removing him from the situation.

    For the record, my brother is now five years old, has never been fearful of dogs, and has no scars from that incident. And he still doesn't have any dog manners.
  • edited November -1
    Oh wow, if my son provoked a dog to attack (more like defend), he's going to be the one in trouble.

    My first cat was rehomed because I was running around the house and decided to jump over her. I didn't jump far enough and landed right on top of her. She freaked and scratched up both my legs. I was crying bloody murder not because my legs hurt but because they were taking her away from me.

    My second cat was taken to the shelter when he attacked my brother, probably provoked also (my brother was 2 years old) but I wasn't there so I never got the full story.

    Most of my childhood animals were rehomed or died prematurely because of poor care and the "animals are replaceable" mentality that my mother has. I'm still surprised I came out the way I did.
  • edited November -1
    I get so frustrated with him. He has NO respect for animals at all. Our current pets put up with a ton of abuse from him. I can't even count how many times I've told him to stop carrying the cat around, not even pointing out that the cat is CRYING to be put down makes him think. He bothers Jack a lot too, Jack is really laid back about it and does nothing or runs away. We have to restrain him from running to pet strange dogs even though we've repeatedly told him that that can get him bitten. I'm waiting for a strange dog to snap at him, hopefully that will teach him. And hopefully this time my stepdad won't cry foul and blame the dog for defending itself.

    I don't know if I will ever get over what happened with Cleo. She was a huge part of my life, and taken away for a stupid reason.
  • edited November -1
    The only reasonable excuse, in my opinion, is if the dog poses a serious threat to the child. I have to think there's a danger of the dog attacking the child. As far as allergies, the kid would have to be seriously allergic before I would rehome the dog because there are sooo many things you can do to deal with allergies. Get rid of the carpet, have all leather furniture, and brush the dog and sweep the floor like crazy, keep the dog out of the child's room, have the dog stay outside when no one's around (less time in the house means less shedding in the house). There are so many options.

    For money, I can't EVER see that happening. If I didn't think I could afford my dogs, I'd move somewhere cheap to live, sell the car, sell anything else I had... I'd basically make my life so inexpensive that I could support myself on even the crappiest of jobs. Basically, I would change everything else about my life before I would get rid of the dogs. Of course, I already sort of do that in a way. I live in an old mobile home and drive a crappy car to avoid having to make payments on anything because I hate the idea of debt and I want to be able to afford other things.

    This kind of reminds me of how my parents got rid of a cat when I was a kid because my sister kept throwing the cat down the stairs. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why couldn't they just teach her not to throw the cat down the stairs? Barring that, why couldn't they just keep the kid from being able to throw the cat down the stairs? Seems like a pretty stupid reason to me.
  • edited November -1
    I think about this every now and then because I do want to have kids when I get to that stage in life. There's so many controversy as to what is best for the kid in regards to dog allergies. Some information say to have dogs while they're young so they'll get used to it and some say it's bad to have dogs with the baby because they'll get allergic to it later on. So what are we supposed to believe?

    My parents would definitely take pong if my child become allergic to her.. but hopefully since there's no animal allergy prominent in my family, there will be less of a chance my kid has allergies.
  • edited November -1
    One of my younger brothers is allergic to cats but as long as he's not in a closed room with them he's fine. Open a window and no issue. We've been wanting to get a HEPA filter anyway so we're using the baby as an excuse to get off our butts and really go buy one. He's the only one in both sides of the family to have any sort of animal allergy so I'm hoping it was just a fluke in genetics (or whatever causes allergies).
  • edited November -1
    My husband is allergic to everything on the planet, including dogs, but he loves them so much we have found ways to deal with it. Lots of cleaning on my part, hardwood floors, open windows, air purifiers, and benadryl. I went through a TERRIBLE breakup a few years back and he decided since he was keeping the house, he got to keep the dogs (my two siberian huskies). It was AWFUL and I never want to feel that way again, and I never will. But now that I look at the situation I was moving into a small no yard apartment and he was keeping the house with the large fenced yard, so really it was the best place for the dogs...I still dream of going back there and stealing them though...I miss them terribly.
  • edited November -1
    Jay and I are both allergic to dogs and cats. We take meds, and keep our house clean. We have little to no issue.

    In regards to children and dogs, I am horribly opposed to the idea of people rehoming a dog due to inconvenience of having both.

    Dogs are work.

    Children likely more.

    If you are having a child and you know your dog is not good with children, I would try like hell to work the dog past that issue before the child is born. Even if it means having a behaviorist in your home 3 times a week before the baby is born and after.

    When we take a dog into our home and we are assuming responsibility for their safety, their wellness, and their emotional well being for their entire lives.

    That said, if after doing all the necessary work to try to make it work with a dog with kid issues, that dog still shows aggression toward the child then I do believe that re-homing the dog, while heartbreaking, is an appropriate action.

    I admit, that being that I am not pregnant and have gone to great lengths to make sure that I will never be, I have not been reading the pregnancy thread. I hope that is not an issue for any of our expectant moms on the forum. I hope that this is only a theoretical discussion.
  • edited November -1
    well...
    this is a timely topic!

    we adopted kitsune fully understanding his reason for surrender (which was something like "is not adjusting well to new baby"). He was skittish of children, but its not children in particular he is skittish of, its anything new and unfamiliar in the form of a person.

    We also were not planning on children, but life is what it is. We have time to prepare. We have always been pushing Kitsune a little bit further each time we take him into a social situation and he has improved a great deal in the past year, especially with adults. We have not had him successfully around small children, but Tsuki is amazing. Its work, and he is a work in progress.

    I wouldn't trust one single dog around a baby or small child alone anyway, so Kitsune's uneasiness with the unfamiliar and unpredictable does not threaten his place in the home we all share.
    With close friends, dog play date acquaintances and family members, it takes a good 3-4 times of meeting them for him to be comfortable interacting with them. I suspect that with a new baby, it will be a similar process. Having a dog is work, its never really easy and I never expected it to be, so this time around, we'll help him adjust, whatever it takes, we'll get him there.

    I guess the only time I would ever consider rehoming a resident dog is when they pose a serious harm to a human family member (through no fault of the human) and when all behavior modification has failed... then its appropriate to think of other options for a home for the dog/cat/etc.

    I'm also allergic to cats but zyrtec and really good vacuum and cleaning regimen allows me to help during kitten season.
  • edited November -1
    Oh yeah Jessica, this is only a theoretical discussion. No one here that I know of is planning any rehomings (unless rehoming the children count :P)
  • edited December 2008
    As far as Shibas and children....A great many of them are NOT good with kids. Unless considerable effort was made to socialize them with young kids a puppies there can be problems once a baby enters the home. Most folks when they get their first dog as a couple do not usually have other people that have kids at the same time so that part is usually missed in training and proofing.

    One can never really tell what will occur once your children are born. Children are fast and most adults once they have one or two toddlers running about can not keep track of events. In many cases adults expect their child to be able to crawl all over a dog and the dog to take it, like you see in the movies or tv.

    Never say never about needing to give up a dog, it really depends on the dynamics of the family and personality of the dog. Some dogs become scared or depressed once a baby comes. Therefore, I don't pass judgment on those who seek to give up due various issues revolving around a baby. Most likely the parent (usually the mother) is not able to cope with the combination of things. Kids like to push the envelope to get a reaction either from the parent, or the dog in or to get more attention of the parent. So from birth to age 9 yrs kids can be just horrible to pets if they are not give limits and structure on how to behave. If you have to lock a dog away half of its life before your child develops then the dog needs a new home where it can get the attention it deserves, rather than living like a mushroom.

    Parenting for both kids as well as four footed takes real dedication...It is no easy task.

    To throw out a few examples, my god son at age three would sit at the table and kick his feet at the resting dogs to see if he could hit them or get a start for them to jump up. Also , he would also try to sleep in the dog beds and play with their toys, the same toys the dogs wanted. Structuring was easier because he did not live with us 24/7 but if it were otherwise I know my one dog would have been miserable. The baby was not necessarily mean but would push the limits and boundaries.

    As a parent you have to be doubly aware of your limits, the dogs limits and now your childs. Overcoming some of it has to do setting up good modeling as a parent and also sharing dog tasks very early and also providing time outs for the kids, which many folks do not want to do with their child since they have an unrealistic view of their progeny.

    For those of you about to be parents here is a good resource called living with kids and dogs without losing your mind.
    http://www.amazon.com/Living-Kids-Dogs-Without-Losing-Your/dp/1933562668

    Colleen Pilear is super and she even has a day camp that kids can attend with their dog when they are old enough.
    She trains at All About Dogs in Woodbridge VA.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Yep - I think all kids go through a stage where they like to terrorise dogs, but if they're taught properly, they can get through it. Isaac goes through all sorts of behaviours. Recently his thing is pushing his toy stroller into the dogs and giggling when they run away. He knows he's not allowed, so he'll "close" his eyes and pretend he doesn't see them. Well, that means that he's not allowed to play with the toy stroller unless he's being supervised and he's being good about it. If the dogs start being terrorised, then the stroller goes away.

    If given persistent guidance and direction, I can't see any child keeping up this behaviour permanently. It does mean a few solid years of dealing endlessly with toddler impulses, but that's not limited to parents with dogs. Isaac also likes throwing things in the toilet, but I haven't considered getting rid of the toilet.

    Snf - thanks for linking to that book! I am definitely going to buy that one!
  • edited November -1
    I'd also like to point out there's a difference between "re-homing" a dog and turning it into a shelter. I can only think of one or two scenarios where the need to get the dog out of the household is so urgent that a shelter would be the only option (e.g. a catastrophic health event like a car crash). The problems with children or finances that may result in a someone deciding they can no longer care for a dog don't happen overnight. If the decision must be made, you can work things out for a few weeks until a new home can be found or a rescue can get involved.
  • edited December 2008
    That is a very good point, Dave. There are a lot more resources than a local shelter when the need to rehome a dog presents itself and is not 'urgent'.

    While we had the intention on rehoming Hanzo from the start, having him in our home actually does pose a slight risk to me now (*if* he gets out of the barrier, *if* he tries to bite a dog and I get in the way then need antibiotics, shots, etc). I do not at all regret pulling him from the shelter, but I am sad I won't be able to see it completely through. Thank goodness for NYCSR, they hope to have him in a dogless foster home by the end of January. I am very grateful for dog welfare and rescue groups.
  • edited November -1
    That's precisely the point Jen! Hanzo now presents a risk, but you're going to make it work until he can be properly re-homed. Kudos!
  • edited November -1
    That book that Patrice linked is one of the greatest dog (and kid ;)) training books I have ever read!
  • edited November -1
    This is a very intense subject. We got our dogs knowing that we were going to have kids so they have been socialized. What is just as important to socializing the dog is training the children on how to TREAT the dogs. Like discussed, the taunting is not the dogs fault. If one of my girls went kujo on my baby unprovoked they will be gone, Chad has made that clear. But we will know we have done everything possible leading up to it to prevent it.
    We have discussed how life will change for the dogs and that we have to make conscious decisions on continuing to involve them as much as they are now. They are my babies I cant imagine life without them and I will do whatever is in my power to keep life going well for all parties from minute one. We have already started adapting things. They will no longer be in my car due to its size. 2 dogs in the backseat with car seat is not gonna work. We now have the seats up in the blazer with them in the back (this was a very hard transition for Sasha, but progress is being made). We are leaving toys around and Telling Niko leave it (we just need to make sure that we watch her, our fault not hers), She knows leave it, she just isnt used to hearing it because everything has been hers. And we will teach Elijah what is the dogs toys and for him to leave it. They are allowed in the nursery only with us in there....
  • edited November -1
    I thought I would share, my girlfriend had a baby a few months ago. She also has to chihuahua mixes and a rottie/coonhound. One of her chi's Sammy, is Cujo. He has bitten everyone! Luckily he has no teeth (he is 12 and chi's have crappy teeth). Kate has worked on baby protocol with the dogs since she found out she was pregnant. She and her husband manage beautifully. They even had a kitchen fire. Talk about upheaval. And had to stay in a hotel, and still made it work with baby and pack in tow.

    It is doable. Not easy. But doable. And according to her, absolutely worth it.
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